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"G-d" - 6/16/2008 5:49:42 PM
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Looking for polite, civil and thought-provoking but honest answers; what do you think of God being referred to this way? I see it all over the internet, even by self-proclaimed Christians.
Me, I think it looks like it's thought of as a swear word (or they're afraid others will think that) so they thinly disguise it. I don't think much of it. It appears to be saying, You can say "God" but whisper it so no one will hear you".
< Message edited by Cross_Eyed_4_Life -- 6/16/2008 5:58:49 PM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 6:31:54 PM
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ames01
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The short answer is that some folks consider it irreverent to write out His name. I'm not very well informed on the reasons for it, but I'm sure someone who is will post soon to explain. :)
< Message edited by ames01 -- 6/16/2008 6:38:34 PM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 6:35:19 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ames01
The short answer is that some folks consider it irreverent to write out His name. I'm not very well informed on the reasons for it, but I'm sure someone who is will post soon to explain. :)
I would really be interested in hearing that. It seems if that were the case, it would be even more irreverent to disguise His name--however thinly veiled. I've never heard such a thing but I'll try to keep an open mind. Thank you.
< Message edited by Won_by_One -- 6/16/2008 6:41:50 PM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 6:38:22 PM
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LCannon
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I often wonder how the 'G-d'-ers(sorry)in text express themselves in conversation.
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(Psalm 17:15)
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 6:41:17 PM
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Stronger2day
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This probably doesn't address the instances to which you are speaking, but sometimes missionaries and those communicating in electronic format from persecuted countries alter 'God' so that it can't be filtered and detected.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 7:00:00 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Won_by_One
Looking for polite, civil and thought-provoking but honest answers; what do you think of God being referred to this way? I see it all over the internet, even by self-proclaimed Christians.
Me, I think it looks like it's thought of as a swear word (or they're afraid others will think that) so they thinly disguise it. I don't think much of it. It appears to be saying, You can say "God" but whisper it so no one will hear you".
The term G-d is used by devout Jews and many Messianic Believers (Christians from a Jewish background) to avoid breaking the third commandment:You shall not use or repeat the name of the Lord your God in vain [that is, lightly or frivolously, in false affirmations or profanely]; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (Exodus 20:7 AMPLIFIED BIBLE)
Indeed some even avoid such synonyms as Adoni (Lord) and when instead whenever they would normally say some form of His name they simply say ha shem (Hebrew for the name).
YeHôWaH Jehovah = “the existing One” which is the proper name of the one true God only is actually YHWH (no vowels) it is only pronounced using the vowel pointings of Adoni (lord).
Traditionally the only one who knew/knows the actual way to pronounce the name is the High Priest, and he only did so once a year in the Holy of Holies (the only time any one was allowed in there) and he whispered it during a particularly loud portion of the service.
I am not certain how God feels about people going to such extremes even when it is done to obey one of His commandments...but I cannot fault those who so revere Him.
There are several Messianics in these forums I am certain they will correct any false statements I have made (and maybe supply more information.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 7:05:17 PM
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jbird56
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I know that orthodox Jews will write G-d. They believe it is disrespectful to write His name. I don't know the full reasons they won't write it; but I am aware that they won't spell it out. I have yet to see a Christian write G-d, so I don't know about that.
Every Christian I know will spell God's name out fully. I give Him praise very frequently & believe it would be somehow minimizing Him to not spell His name out fully. I hope that makes sense.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 8:05:51 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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A lot of thought-provoking responses here. Going to have to mull them over. Thank you so much.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 8:12:14 PM
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p31woman
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quote:
They believe it is disrespectful to write His name.
Good answer, Berian.
Just to expand a little on what jbird wrote above, it's not that writing His name is considered disrespectful, it's that the paper it's written or printed on might be treated less-than-reverently or used in a profane way. IOW, it's a hedge around the 3rd commandment to be extra sure His name is never treated with disrespect if it can be helped at all.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/16/2008 8:25:41 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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I can almost see what you're saying, but if you know you're not using His name in vain or irreverently, why do it? Speaking of Him on Christian message boards and where people obviously love Him and would never intentionally do that is another thing. I can completely understand, otherwise. So am I being disrespectful to those who feel even using His name in a conversation of praise and such is irreverent? And where do we go from there, as, it seems you can't turn around anymore without offending people. The Bible says neither offend nor be offended but it seems it's impossible to not offend nowadays.
< Message edited by Won_by_One -- 6/16/2008 8:32:45 PM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 1:24:54 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Won_by_One
I can almost see what you're saying, but if you know you're not using His name in vain or irreverently, why do it? Speaking of Him on Christian message boards and where people obviously love Him and would never intentionally do that is another thing. I can completely understand, otherwise. So am I being disrespectful to those who feel even using His name in a conversation of praise and such is irreverent? And where do we go from there, as, it seems you can't turn around anymore without offending people. The Bible says neither offend nor be offended but it seems it's impossible to not offend nowadays.
If you train yourself to habitually to not spell out God's name in any form, how easy is it to untrain yourself for one specific area? It would be almost impossible to manage that without eventually having it spill over into more secular area.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 1:42:41 AM
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BibleL7
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I have heard it stated by one who did it that it was not respectful to spell out His name yet they had no answer when I said it was not His name. But it is done most commonly by messianic Jews and those raised in Jewish background. Some dont realize that it is His title not His name but then many Christians dont know that it is His title and not name. But it is a choice they make to shorten it, just something ya get used to.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 6:26:30 AM
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DaveW
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In hebraic thinking there is not much difference between a "title" and a "name."
As to G-d or L-rd, it is a convention in religious Judiasm. If The Name (HaShem) is posted here and then printed out by someone and subsequently trashed, that would be defaming HIS name.
There is also a cultural thing in that Hebrew (in its pure form) does not have vowels in the aleph-bet.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 8:00:09 AM
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PromiseLander
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It's basically a form of Pharaseeism... (spell?) See, for this I go to Shakespere when he's questioning what's in a name? A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet. See, they shorten the word "God" or "Lord" but they still say what they want to say, so they in a sense feel that they can hyphenate the word and all is OK, but they still commit the same sin if they'd have used the real word because the intent is the same.
Now, there is absolutely no sin in just writing or speaking the name of God - the Apostles did it, the Church Fathers did it - are we better than Paul? Are we more righteous than Moses? The sin is to speak or write the name(s) of God irreverantly or with ill intent.
When Moses asked who he shall say is telling Phararoh to let the Israelites go, God responded with "I AM" as His name. God never said "My name is 'I AM' but don't you dare write it down..." So, Moses DID write it down so that we all could learn from it.
People who do this believe they are being more righteous by doing so - but there is no reason for it. If you feel you may blaspheme God by speaking His name, then maybe you don't have a heart for God after all. If you DID have a heart for God, then it would be impossible for you to use His name irreverantly.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 10:56:44 AM
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DaveW
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No - you misunderstand. It is done in the attitude (at least by most messianics I know) to honor and reverance HIM.
It is not about how rightous I am, but about how holy HE is.
I did not grow up in the Messianic movement and as such I do not usually do that. My youngest daughter does however.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 11:19:57 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
When Moses asked who he shall say is telling Phararoh to let the Israelites go, God responded with "I AM" as His name. God never said "My name is 'I AM' but don't you dare write it down..." So, Moses DID write it down so that we all could learn from it.
Actually what Moses wrote was:
God said to Moshe, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be]," and added, "Here is what to say to the people of Isra'el: 'Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.' “(Exodus 3:14 Complete Jewish Bible An English Version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B'rit Hadashah (New Testament) by David H. Stern.)
Moshe is the Hebrew pronunciation of Moses, the "strange words" are a phonetic spelling of the Hebrew words, and the words in brackets are the translation of those words.
When dealing with other people's culture trying to impose your own cultural "woulda coulda shoulda" is a very dangerous thing, in spite of the current "wisdom" people from other cultures and other times are NOT just like us....if they were they wouldn't be from another culture/time. It doesn't matter what we think they should believe, how we think they should act, in order to understand them we have to allow them to be them, not some pseudo us.
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 11:24:03 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
No - you misunderstand. It is done in the attitude (at least by most messianics I know) to honor and reverance HIM.
It is not about how rightous I am, but about how holy HE is.
I did not grow up in the Messianic movement and as such I do not usually do that. My youngest daughter does however.
Well, don't get me wrong, I meant no disrespect to the person - merely that there really is no need for the act of hyphening the name of God. Moses wrote the name of God: "I AM," therefore how can one justify NOT speaking His name if you are indeed speaking reverently and with honor? Are we better than Moses? God says that we're not.
Look at it this way - God uses the analogy of the marriage between a husband and a wife quite often in Scriptures to show us definitions of love and how our relationship is to be with God, ect... so I don't think He'll mind if I make my own analogy here... Could you get away with calling your wife a hyphenated word? She might call you one back, but certainly not one that should be repeated! No friend, your wife longs for you to call on her by her name!
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 11:28:28 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
quote:
When Moses asked who he shall say is telling Phararoh to let the Israelites go, God responded with "I AM" as His name. God never said "My name is 'I AM' but don't you dare write it down..." So, Moses DID write it down so that we all could learn from it.
Actually what Moses wrote was:
God said to Moshe, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be]," and added, "Here is what to say to the people of Isra'el: 'Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.' “(Exodus 3:14 Complete Jewish Bible An English Version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B'rit Hadashah (New Testament) by David H. Stern.)
Moshe is the Hebrew pronunciation of Moses, the "strange words" are a phonetic spelling of the Hebrew words, and the words in brackets are the translation of those words.
When dealing with other people's culture trying to impose your own cultural "woulda coulda shoulda" is a very dangerous thing, in spite of the current "wisdom" people from other cultures and other times are NOT just like us....if they were they wouldn't be from another culture/time. It doesn't matter what we think they should believe, how we think they should act, in order to understand them we have to allow them to be them, not some pseudo us.
What a blessing it is to hear the Hebrew - thank you for posting that.
God only required that we not speak His name irreverently - man then imposed the practice of NEVER writing His name (even though "God" is not His name)
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 11:32:14 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
I often wonder how the 'G-d'-ers(sorry)in text express themselves in conversation.
Dave or someone in the know, how does one express oneself in conversation if he avoids writing "God" or "Lord"?
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 11:36:47 AM
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HisFish
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While i dont do it myself, i can appreciate someone who wants to handle God's name so reverently out of love and awe of His holiness.
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magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 12:09:58 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Dave or someone in the know, how does one express oneself in conversation if he avoids writing "God" or "Lord"? Orthodox and Chasidic (or ultraorthodox) Jews usually say HaShem (the name) in refering to the Lord in conversation. In prayer or bible reading they will use Adonai. Most Messianics use Adonai both places, although some also use HaShem.
This was from a congregational email from our rabbi last year adressing this issue:
The correct usage for Adonai is expressed on page 1 of the ArtScroll Siddur which states:
"During prayer, or when a blessing is recited, or when Torah verses are read, the Four-Letter Name should be pronounced as if it were spelled Adonai, the name that identifies God as the Master of All. At other times, it should be pronounced Hashem, literally, "the Name."
In other words, when you encounter yud hei vav hei (yhvh) while you are (1) reading Scripture, (2) reading from the Siddur or (3) reciting a blessing, you use Adonai. At all other times you use Hashem if you want to speak His unpronounceable name in Hebrew, or "God" if you want to speak His name in English.
Please understand that using the word "God" is acceptable in Jewish tradition because "God" is not one of His names. Using Adonai in conversation for God's proper name is really an extension of the Christan tradition of trying to guess at the vowels accompanying yhvh and coming up with Yaweh or Jehovah. The Jewish solution is to not guess at the vowels -- in fact to not conversationally refer to God by His proper name at all; this includes not using substitutes for His proper name such as Adonai.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 12:12:36 PM
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JimboFletch
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Dave, thank you for that good information!
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 12:52:25 PM
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benelchi
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The posts of BerianAardvark, p31woman, DaveW all provide a lot of good information about why this is done by those in the Messianic and Jewish communities. For those who treat this as a method for showing reverence to God and understand that it is only a "hedge", I have no difficulties at all with the practice; however, for those who treat this as a LAW that people MUST follow, I do see this as a major doctrinal problem; I have met people who look at this issue both ways.
I also have a real big problem with those who preach that this practices is somehow wrong, ungodly, etc... Most who do this are very uninformed, and do not realize how much this practice is inherent in our Christian (non-Jewish) culture. Every major English translation of the bible has employed exactly the same practice in the translation of God's name. As DaveW correctly pointed out, in Jewish communities whenever the Bible is read (in Hebrew) the reader always verbally substitutes adonai (or hashem) for 'YHWH'. 'Adonai' simply means 'my Lord' (in the Majestic Plural). If you look at the preface of almost any English bible you will find that they always substitute 'Lord' whenever they translate 'YWHY'; this has historically been done based on the same Jewish tradition of verbally substituting 'adonai'; In the Hebrew bible even the vowel pointings used on the word 'YHWH' are taken from 'adonai', it is widely recognized that the vowels added by the Masorites are intentionally not correct.
To add to p31woman's post. In the Hebrew tradition biblical manuscripts are other sacred writings cannot ever be destroyed because they contain the name of God. So great care is taken to never use the name of God is something that might some day be destroyed, erased, etc... So when ever someone write the name of God anywhere where it might be erased or destroyed a substitution is always made. In English it is G-d, or L-rd, in Hebrew the same rules apply and it is hashem or YY, sometimes in very orthodox communities even 'elohim' is changed to 'eloqim' for the same reason.
One interesting discover from the Dead Sea was the extent to which this practice of reverence for God's name went back in history. Originally Hebrew was written in a Phonetician script that is far different from the Aramaic script used since the Jewish Captivity. Some of the oldest scrolls found at the Dead Sea were still written in the Phonetician script, and some of the oldest Aramaic script scrolls still used the Phonetician script whenever they copied the name 'YHWH'; they did this because they did not want to change even one letter of God's name. Even those who don't know Hebrew can easily recognize the name of God in these scrolls because the letters are so different from anything else in the scroll.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 6/17/2008 12:59:51 PM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 12:55:07 PM
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davemiller7
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The Mormons, I understand, also do not speak or write the name "God" because they say the term is profane to Him or something like that. They refer to Him as "Heavenly Father." For whatever reason, they don't have the same problem with the name "Jesus Christ."
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
I often wonder how the 'G-d'-ers(sorry)in text express themselves in conversation.
Dave or someone in the know, how does one express oneself in conversation if he avoids writing "God" or "Lord"?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 12:56:08 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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So if I were to become a Messianic Christian, would I be expected to do this? While I am for those who believe it's irreverent to hyphenate God like that, I'm trying hard not to find offense in it b'c the Bible says neither offend nor be offended. But it's hard for me to accept in all my earthly imperfection.
Pardon me, Messianic Jew.
< Message edited by Won_by_One -- 6/17/2008 1:08:10 PM >
_____________________________
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and they house--Acts 16:31
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