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8th grader struggling with math - 3/31/2008 9:26:09 PM
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lifeisgoodwgod
Posts: 69
Joined: 1/28/2006
From: Western NC
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I am at the end of my rope. My 8th grade dd has struggled with math all along. I have tried Saxon (for 3 years, Chalkdust (this year), Key to(for fractions, percents, and decimals) and it takes her FOREVER to do her math(13 problems in one hour-basic math). We had end of grade testing last week and she tested 4.5 grade level in timed math. She tested high school level on everything else. I have been kicking around getting a tutor. But shouldn't I be able to tutor her? Is this a dumb question? She was in public school until 4th grade and got stuck on using her fingers to add and subtract and I think this slows her down on long problems. I have worked with her on math facts and she knows them but can't seem to get out of the habit of using her fingers. She will be starting high school next year and wants to attend college and unless she catches up I'm afraid she will be in trouble. Any suggestions?
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/1/2008 12:18:08 AM
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Jenny-Fair
Posts: 6656
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: WA
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Well, I'd go back to the beginning. Give up the textbooks, and don't make her memorize math facts--there's no reason to. Just go to www.donnayoung.org and print her out the tables. After she uses those for a year or so she'll pretty much have them memorized anyway, with much less frustration than trying to memorize them gives the both of you.
Then, go to addition. The concept of addition is the same no matter how many digits you use, so begin with 2 or 3 digit problems, with regrouping, and when she is confident in that, work up to 6 and 7 digits, and then up to 3 or 4 addends (456 + 234 + 789 + 987). When she has that down pat, go to subtracting with regrouping, in the same manner, working up to very large numbers, because the concept is the same at any size.
When you get to multiplication, she needs to understand what it means. That 3 x 7 is three groups of seven (or seven groups of three). It is critical that she understand this. Work up to where she can multiply, with pencil and paper, large numbers. This isn't about learning the facts, it's about learning the method.
Then go to long division. Be sure she understands what division means (how many groups of 3 are there in 21?). Begin with 1 digit divisors and 2 or 3 digit uh...numbers inside the box, lol. And teach her that guessing is a great tool. If you have 356 divided by 20, well, you'd guess since there are 5 20s in 100 that there would be 6 in 300 and then a couple extra..let's try 8, so 8 times 20 is 340 and yes, that is less than 356, so we'll try it..etc. Work up to large numbers.
When she has that down pat, she ought to have gained some confidence in math. When you begin this process simply say something like, "Since we are having problems in math I thought it might be helpful to go back to the beginning, in case in all our switching around between curricula we missed something! I'm going to do this with you since it's always good to practice basic math [and I mean this--print out two of everything and do it at the same time!]. We'll be done pretty quick and then we'll go from there. I know you are a bright girl, so it isn't your brain that is the problem--we just haven't found the right way to do this yet."
You can google math worksheets or make up your own problems. Do not be afraid to use manipulatives--we found Base 10 blocks very helpful for adding and subtracting with regrouping (understanding the concept and learning the method). After you do the above, she really should be able to start over with Key to Fractions...it is what I would recommend, UNLESS she has very negative feelings about it, in which case I'd look for something more neutral.
Do not attempt to speed ahead in order to 'catch up'. This will stress her out and create a block. Just take it at her pace, with lots of practice in the foundational parts of math. Not enough to frustrate or bore her, but enough to cement the concepts. When she used traditional textbooks she likely spent a small amount of time on each concept each year, never really going in-depth enough to understand it and gain confidence before moving on.
_____________________________
Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/1/2008 9:46:14 AM
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Homegrownkids
Posts: 1119
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I agree with Jen. Back up and start over. Use manipulatives. Also, teach her how to add without her fingers... like if it is 9 +6.. teach her that she can pretend that 9 is ten and just to minus one after she has her answer. Practice counting by 10's and 5's, 2's and 3's etc. starting with an odd number... like starting from 27 and continue. Use manipulatives when she gets to fractions. Maybe even buy a book that she is comfortable in so that she doesn't have to struggle every day. Use manipulatives when dividing also.
Remember, not everyone excells in every subject. My children all tested great but one tested several grades behind in spelling. If you are learning and moving foward that is the important thing. There is no sense in moving foward if she is not really learning though, that defeats the purpose.
_____________________________
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God heals!
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/1/2008 5:16:19 PM
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PnJnKids
Posts: 41
Joined: 12/14/2007
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I totally agree with Jenny-Fair.
Take a deep breath and know that it is kind and prudent to stick with the basics until your daughter is ready to move ahead.
According to research about brain development, there is a level of development that must be reached before you start abstract concepts. This doesn't happen at the same age for every child so some are ready for algebra in 6th grade where some of aren't ready until 10th!
I finally sat and figured out what would happen if we just did more things with the basics until the kids were ready for Algebra and beyond. At worst, they might not start Algebra until 10th grade. That would still be okay for our purposes so I have changed our strategy to accomodate the individual child. So far, we have used board & card games, different curriculums, computer games and the like to play with the math level they had mastered and then moved on when they were ready for the next level.
My oldest is 14 and is now getting a start on Algebra. He has been done with elementary math since 4th grade and we have spent the years since then doing a variety of things about the same concepts until he was ready for the abstract thinking required for Algebra.
Math Computer Games, MUS Fractions, Key To Fractions, Key to Percents, Key to Decimals are things we have done with him for the last few years.
< Message edited by PnJnKids -- 4/1/2008 5:22:21 PM >
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/1/2008 6:18:45 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7749
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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My eldest is in eighth grade. She finished fractions in January. It took us what seemed like forever to get through it. The main problem was that we did not work through each step and make sure that she had mastered it before moving on. Finally we started from the beginning and worked through it slowly until she understood each concept before moving on to the next. When we got to the next book, she has whizzed through it. She started on decimals in January and is already over half way through the book. We are not rushing. She just understands it and are going at her pace. She has one book after this before she goes into algebra. We will work on that through the summer, but again, we will not rush it. She has to really get it before we move on, be is fast or be it slow.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/2/2008 10:22:18 AM
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lifeisgoodwgod
Posts: 69
Joined: 1/28/2006
From: Western NC
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I went to Donna Young's site and printed some basic math forms and she will be working on those for a while. I just recalled that when I was in 8th grade I couldn't get math and actually failed basic math (we moved in the middle of my 8th grade year and I had a new teacher with Parkinson's disease-very old man) and I just didn't care. When I got to high school I was put in a basic math class and found it way too easy so then they put me in an algebra class with one of the best teachers I have ever had (it was a God thing). I loved math from then on and took several advanced math classes until I graduated. I guess I am so worried about high school and feel if she doesn't have the math she won't be able to go to college. Or do well on her SATs. She is very right brained and will probably go into some kind of music program, christain education or history. She probably won't need much math, but she still needs to get accepted to college. I have an awesome husband that without knowing it gives me some pressure about this issue. I told him we were going back to the basics - again, and he did not smile.
About MUS, we looked at that some time ago and my dd was against it. She did not like the way it look at all. It's funny, she really gets fractions, decimals and percents, just can't add or subtract well so it slows her way down. See any gaps here? She attended public school until the end of 3rd grade and I think she developed some bad habits which we need to work hard to correct. Thanks for the input, you guys are awesome.
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/26/2008 10:13:12 AM
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veronica506
Posts: 2
Joined: 4/25/2008
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Here is a website that may help you http://www.maosue.org
It's a non-profit organization offering free Math tutoring service online.
My friend told me this website and I like their service a lot.
At least, it's free. 
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/26/2008 11:44:33 AM
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timf
Posts: 624
Joined: 10/20/2006
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8th grader struggling with math
There are several things that can limit academic performance;
1. Capability
2. Motivation
3. Interest
4. Functional prerequisite knowledge
5. Abstraction
6. Poor presentation of information
One area that is not often given full consideration is "absraction". If a young person does not feel that the information they are being requested to learn is "real" they may never be able to summon the interest or motivation to attempt to learn it.
One key to learning is the integration of information into an existing framework of knowledge that has relevance to the learner. For example if someone told you that a particular company you were passing by on the highway had a bathroom off their main hallway, you might not consider the information relevant and forget it quickly. However, if you were starting to work there on Monday, you might retain the knowledge as important.
We have friends who have two daughters that are each given a weekly portion of the grocery money. Whatever they are able to save is kept by them as their allowance. They have developed a remarkable proficiency in basic math.
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/30/2008 12:10:37 PM
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lifeisgoodwgod
Posts: 69
Joined: 1/28/2006
From: Western NC
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Just an update. We have had a terrible time the last 2 weeks. My mom suffered a devastating stroke and passed away on April 19. But back to school. We have been reviewing basic math facts and are addressing the issues timf suggested and my dd is doing better. We will continue to review and resume our Chalkdust when I feel she is ready. We only have a short amount left in the book, but may look at Teaching Textbooks for next year. Thanks for all the help. Please pray that I can start the grieving process and still be a good wife and mother.
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 4/30/2008 2:42:15 PM
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ddsisson
Posts: 325
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Indiana
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quote:
My mom suffered a devastating stroke and passed away on April 19.
((((lifeisgood)))) Sorry to hear that.
_____________________________
<--------That is Daisy.
Debbie Sisson-Homeschool Mom of Greg(17yo-junior), Megan(14yo-8th), Tyler(11yo-5th)
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 5/2/2008 6:46:45 AM
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CropDuster
Posts: 60
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: Minnesota
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1. Conquer through superior organization. Divide all the different kinds of problems the student must master into distinct categories. This gives the student a sense of scope and structure.
2. Develop and map-out basic, simple, representative problems for each category. Have the student master them by putting them on flash-cards, and by having him practice the problems over and over again on a dry-erase board. Start with small numbers and super-easy problems. Do them over and over again, and then start to tweek everything to make it more challenging. Then teach the exceptional and more complex problems, upon this strong foundation.
3. Drill and re-drill all the basic, simple problems, until the student clearly understands them and the composite body of math he's accountable to know, and then refine that knowledge by working on more complex problems toward the end of the learning quest. The student should be able to identify a type of problem by name, remembering his overall framework, and methods of solving that type of problem.
Math teachers typically get bogged down in detail, forget about the 'big-picture' and leave kids confused. Math teachers are some of the worst in the industry, IMO, because they can't relate to people to begin with. How else could anyone decide to major in and teach math, of all things. Yuk.
< Message edited by CropDuster -- 5/2/2008 6:54:44 AM >
_____________________________
"If you rightly bear your cross, it will bear you."
Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 5/2/2008 9:06:41 PM
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MrsDC
Posts: 174
Joined: 8/17/2005
From: Sinaloa, Mexico
Status: offline
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quote:
Math teachers typically get bogged down in detail, forget about the 'big-picture' and leave kids confused. Math teachers are some of the worst in the industry, IMO, because they can't relate to people to begin with. How else could anyone decide to major in and teach math, of all things. Yuk.
LOL!
You had a bad math teacher in junior high, didn't you? 
Seriously, though, I had a math teacher in college who was really just a frustrated number-cruncher, not a math teacher. My math teachers in highschool, though, were excellent. Somehow I managed to attend 3 different schools and had 3 very different, very excellent math professors. Now, I really enjoy teaching math.
If you have a junior higher who is really struggling with math, then I would say that there's a 95% chance that she isn't "immediate" with her basic facts. Plus, you've already said as much. If she can't immediately know that 8 times 7 is 56, and 9 plus 16 is 25, then she will be frustrated with how long her assignments take and her brain will time-out. My recommendation as a teacher, mom and math-lover is to shelve EVERYTHING except fact drills: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. Every day. Buy flash cards, if you like, but she has to be INSTANT on the recognition. You run through the flash cards once with a stopwatch and have her beat your time. Make it challenging!
You can download these drills for free from MathFactCafe. Make your own drills to include numbers up to 12 at least, possibly 15, and time them. Set a goal for 3 minutes each and when she can complete the drills in 3 minutes each, she never has to do another one.
You'll never regret taking the time to do this. Nothing is more frustrating than working through a complicated algebra problem, only to find that you have a wrong answer at the end because of a silly addition mistake at the beginning. I think that after a couple of weeks of intense drills, she'll be ready to conquer the world!
{{{{{{LifeisGood}}}}}}} Praying that God blesses you abundantly this week!
_____________________________
*Just pretend I have a great signature with some profound statement and great graphics.*
Come check out my blog about living and homeschooling in Mexico!
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 5/2/2008 9:37:37 PM
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Jenny-Fair
Posts: 6656
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: WA
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quote:
You'll never regret taking the time to do this.
I couldn't disagree more. We wasted a year on trying to memorize facts. Then I gave the kids a chart and we had no more problems. They memorize them through actual usage, and without the accompanying bad feelings about the task.
_____________________________
Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 5/3/2008 12:27:24 AM
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cynthia
Posts: 7749
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
quote:
You'll never regret taking the time to do this.
I couldn't disagree more. We wasted a year on trying to memorize facts. Then I gave the kids a chart and we had no more problems. They memorize them through actual usage, and without the accompanying bad feelings about the task.
That is what I did with my daughters. They could not memorize the multiplication facts. When I was their age, I couldn't either. I know them now, but am still not lightening fast at them. They each have a multiplication chart that they use and they do fine with math. They understand the concepts and do well on their assignments. When I didn't let my older one use a math chart, she struggled in math. Now she's doing fine. My son is learning his multiplication tables much better than his sisters did. I don't know what's up with that. Even Dr. Demme (the creator of Math-U-See) says that if they just can't seem to memorize them to let them use a chart and move on. So while I agree that if they don't know the math facts and don't have a chart to use they will find it terribly frustrating, if you give the child a chart, things will improve dramatically and they will learn the fact with use. That's how it's working for my daughers and that's how it worked for me when I was in school.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: 8th grader struggling with math - 5/14/2008 8:48:13 AM
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momanddaughter
Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2008
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I am/have been in a similar situation. Last year we dropped all the books and went to Miquon. I had looked at Miquon with my first child but it didn't click for me and wasn't the right thing for him. For my daughter, however, it was a lifesaver! It starts at the beginning, but it uses concepts rather than breaking things into categories, such as "multiplication". The child is doing division before they know they are really doing "division" so there is not barrier or fear. It is printed differently than most curriculums, so that may be why my daughter accepted it without feeling like she was doing child's work. She still did not memorize the times tables either, so I let her refer back to her own chart. She is making good progress on math now.
She also has trouble with spelling, like her father. And she is gifted as a musician, like her father. I am wondering if there could be similar dispositions to the children who have later developmental levels....
My daughter was later in almost everything from potty training to reading. Yet she can pick up things in music and computers so quickly!
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