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Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 3:16:28 PM
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hellohellohi
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I got interested in this question in the Death Penalty thread, but it is bigger than the death penalty.
Consider Romans 13: 1-5 in order to dwell in or on the proper Christian relationship:
(NIV)
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Going along with what Paul has said, it seems to me that the authorities, government, exist to restrain the evil actions of which all of us are capable. That is, even those within government acknowledge themselves to be also citizens, subject to prosecution of authority -- of the law. Thus, a person in authority ought to act out of a certain sense of both humility, for it is possible that the power which they exert may one day have to be exerted against themselves, and of responsibility, because if it is not they who restrain the actions of evil on earth, what agent will? God? Yes, but through these agents; there are no other, barring supernatural, miraculous, that is to say, special, intervention.
Now, it seems to me that not only are the authorities capable of acting as individuals (or cabals) either rightly or wrongly, according to the law of the land, but they are also capable of ceding authority either explicity or by the implication of their own doubt in their authority. This can be evident, I say, whenever an authority asks for special approval of its actions or commisseration in them, when the general, implied social contract of the law should suffice; anything supplementary is redundant.
This can be seen in appeals to the mob: an authority has lost faith in the normal relation of the populace to the law (which all agree exists to restrain the worst elements in a population and within any individual should they be acted upon) and instead grants the spontaneous will of the people. This can also be seen in various forms of propaganda. For instance, the Nazis ceded their authority with the theory that the German people themselves had a type of spiritual superiority (see Heidegger, for instance) and that it is their destiny to fulfill such greatness on earth. It sounds to me that government decided to deify the people themselves, with the logical imlpication that law would take a backseat to the pursuit of the nation's destiny. This is obviosuly populism, regardless of the finer points.
It is my contention that a redundant request for approval above and beyond the social contract of law on the part of the populace entails the resignation of authority.
The further question is: What will you do (or would you have done) as a Christian when the SS comes knocking? What if they even say, "Open up in the name of the Third Reich" or "The German nation." My reply would be, I know no such authority, though I have heard the stirrings about that which you speak among the crowd. Simple enough.
It seems an important question, though, just in case they DO come knocking, figuratively or not.
Would you say, "Okay, and by the way, do you need to borrow some rope?"
What if someone impersonating a cop pulls you over? If you have suspicion of such, don't you call for the real authorities?
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 3:29:24 PM
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cow451
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Paul was addressing day-today affairs, that secular governments were necessary and should be acknowledged. The Bible is full of authority-defying acts, many by Christ. But those acts were based on adhering to God's purpose and accepting responsibility for the resulting consequence. Corrie Ten Boom was likely a law-abiding citizen until she saw the mission forher in helping save lives by defying authority.
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 3:43:45 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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I'm not talking about defying proper authority and accepting the consequences. I'm raising the Christian political science (if there is such a thing) question of how we can recognize whether an authority is such or has relinquished such a claim.
It may be true that we can consider the Third Reich a proper authority which neverthless ought to have been defied at the expense of death. However, I think it is a safe reading of Paul to say that it was not an authority, which nevetheless made claims on the actions of citizens.
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 3:59:02 PM
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Apparition
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You will know by its fruit. =)
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 4:02:12 PM
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McFatty
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Some people believe that since God allows anyone in power to be in power, everything they do is ordained by God and therefore good... very much like the claimed infallibility of the pope. I disagree with this belief.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 4:04:26 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Apparition
You will know by its fruit. =)
Perhaps. But, of course, we are told we can know LOVE by its fruits, and I don't believe it is the commission of government to love, rather to restrain.
But good point. If it does bad, then it is composed of bad agents -- but how do we separate merely thinking something is bad and knowing it? For instance, if a whole mob of people thinks it is wrong for an agent of the government to do something, yet the agent insists he is carrying out the law, who is right? I think it is the agent, according to Paul. The mob is untruth, in this case. Rather, if the agent makes claims to justice AND makes a simultaneous redundant appeal to the mob, then we know we can ignore him, or call the real authorities to arrest him for impersonation.
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 9:20:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
I'm not talking about defying proper authority and accepting the consequences. I'm raising the Christian political science (if there is such a thing) question of how we can recognize whether an authority is such or has relinquished such a claim.
It may be true that we can consider the Third Reich a proper authority which neverthless ought to have been defied at the expense of death. However, I think it is a safe reading of Paul to say that it was not an authority, which nevetheless made claims on the actions of citizens.
What or who was the proper authority of Germany during Hitler's reign?
John
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/16/2008 9:23:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Apparition
You will know by its fruit. =)
Perhaps. But, of course, we are told we can know LOVE by its fruits, and I don't believe it is the commission of government to love, rather to restrain.
But good point. If it does bad, then it is composed of bad agents -- but how do we separate merely thinking something is bad and knowing it? For instance, if a whole mob of people thinks it is wrong for an agent of the government to do something, yet the agent insists he is carrying out the law, who is right? I think it is the agent, according to Paul. The mob is untruth, in this case. Rather, if the agent makes claims to justice AND makes a simultaneous redundant appeal to the mob, then we know we can ignore him, or call the real authorities to arrest him for impersonation.
Ignore him means what? Forever?
John
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/17/2008 8:41:40 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
I'm not talking about defying proper authority and accepting the consequences. I'm raising the Christian political science (if there is such a thing) question of how we can recognize whether an authority is such or has relinquished such a claim.
It may be true that we can consider the Third Reich a proper authority which neverthless ought to have been defied at the expense of death. However, I think it is a safe reading of Paul to say that it was not an authority, which nevetheless made claims on the actions of citizens.
What or who was the proper authority of Germany during Hitler's reign?
John
Good question. The Nazi government was still the only law and order, I suppose. If there is no one to call, then one must die rather than commiserate, I say.
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/17/2008 8:43:26 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Apparition
You will know by its fruit. =)
Perhaps. But, of course, we are told we can know LOVE by its fruits, and I don't believe it is the commission of government to love, rather to restrain.
But good point. If it does bad, then it is composed of bad agents -- but how do we separate merely thinking something is bad and knowing it? For instance, if a whole mob of people thinks it is wrong for an agent of the government to do something, yet the agent insists he is carrying out the law, who is right? I think it is the agent, according to Paul. The mob is untruth, in this case. Rather, if the agent makes claims to justice AND makes a simultaneous redundant appeal to the mob, then we know we can ignore him, or call the real authorities to arrest him for impersonation.
Ignore him means what? Forever?
John
I'm being hypothetical. If an ideologue wants attention, then the solution would be to ignore him. If their actions demand actions against them, or prosectution of their dangerous speech ("fire in a crowded theater") then so be it. I mentioned both.
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/17/2008 8:47:28 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
I'm not talking about defying proper authority and accepting the consequences. I'm raising the Christian political science (if there is such a thing) question of how we can recognize whether an authority is such or has relinquished such a claim.
It may be true that we can consider the Third Reich a proper authority which neverthless ought to have been defied at the expense of death. However, I think it is a safe reading of Paul to say that it was not an authority, which nevetheless made claims on the actions of citizens.
What or who was the proper authority of Germany during Hitler's reign?
John
Good question. The Nazi government was still the only law and order, I suppose. If there is no one to call, then one must die rather than commiserate, I say.
An even better example would be Vichy France. Elements of it were the "proper authority;" yet they had bowed to a suspicious authority. One had to take care during that time. Perhaps calling on the legitimate authorities would mean trying to bring to trial those parties in power that one has complaint against under the certain judges who appeared to retain respect for traditional law. I feel it is likely such existed. It seems to me possible that the judiciary can maintain a certain impartiality and purity even when those who wield power more directly (the executives) seem to disregard the responsibilities of authority in its power, such as to serve and protect.
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RE: Christian Relationship to Government - 7/17/2008 8:54:19 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Some people believe that since God allows anyone in power to be in power, everything they do is ordained by God and therefore good... very much like the claimed infallibility of the pope. I disagree with this belief.
I'm not sure if people believe this. I am trying to find out, really.
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