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Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 9:43:43 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2720
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From: Saturn
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Terms we hear a lot these days. IMO, a dead church is one in which Christ crucified for the atonement of sins , and risen from the dead is not taught. It has nothing to do with method.
For some, a dead church is one with pews, and order of worship, and organ and hymns. I disagree completely with that.
I have seen churches that sold their sanctuary, moved into a warehouse, put in stadium seating, got a band playing a variety of music, people dancing around, and it felt dead. Lot of feel good Dr. Phil style sermons, but the Bible was not preached.
What is your definition of a "dead" and a "Living" church?
How important are method and surroundings?
< Message edited by bluestone -- 6/23/2008 9:49:44 AM >
_____________________________
"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DEAD"
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 10:25:24 AM
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BibleBased
Posts: 67
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I guess the 'dead' refers to the internals not the externals. The building, the songs, the service format are not important. The bible and the spirit of God are.
In my experience, which is why i'm outside all churches, to get people through the door churches have sacrificed - LIVING the Word of God, for a few nice stories and sermons and see you in 7 days!
Yes i have been to churches and HEARD the gospel and lots of readings, although in 1 church i only heard 2 verses in 1 3/4 hours of a service! But it is little or no good reading the Word, agreeing what it means and then NOT ACTING! Faith without WORKS is dead???
I would rather those in authority started LIVING the WORD of God and expecting those attending to as well. Congregations might halve in days, but you would be left with TRUE believers. Then those outside the church calling Christians hypercrits might feel able to come in.
I would love to attend a LIVING church, but i've never found one. So the church, Christ, lives within me and i teach my children bible truth 365 days a year - which is funny because i've never met a church goer who does bible study every day of the week/ year with their children!
BibleBased.
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 10:30:26 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1356
Joined: 1/22/2008
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The church is alive. . . alive with Jesus!
Methods and surroundings are insignificant. If He is present and we are fellowshipping around Him and His word, we're the church, having it and doing it. As a friend of mine says, "We can have church in the Walmart parking lot!" And we sometimes do!
Good question. We need to be reminded of WHAT is truly important and that is the presence of Jesus, His Spirit. Bless ya! 
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 10:33:30 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2720
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: Saturn
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I have been in many living churches.
Believers gathered for worship, preaching of the word, and and heartfelt praise of God is part of a living church. A living church can meet under a tree, in a magnificent cathedral, or the back room of a store.
Yet, some feel that if they dump pews and hymns, the church will be alive.
Some feel that without pews and hymns, it is not church at all.
_____________________________
"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DEAD"
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 10:50:45 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1356
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quote:
Yet, some feel that if they dump pews and hymns, the church will be alive.
Some feel that without pews and hymns, it is not church at all.
That's why we have to get over 'me'---what 'I' think, what 'I' like, what 'I' prefer, what feels right to 'me', etc, etc, etc. . .
Church is about Him, His Spirit at work within us and our living that out among others who know Him. And I need to/have to cooperate with His death dealing ways IN me so that He lives in me, gives me His desires, etc. Only then do I know as He knows and have His mind, His heart. And that is my biggest need and greatest desire. Bless ya!
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 10:52:16 AM
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wintery
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A dead church has no true interaction of God's love between members.
A living church may only be true conceptually, or intermittently, with halting steps of love between some. It seems to be always out of grasp and perhaps unattainable in a society of the self-absorbed--whose refusal to go through the fires of refining and the efforts required of love--dirty hands, sweat, tears and inconvenience.
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 11:04:32 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3622
Joined: 4/16/2005
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Fruit. A living church will produce fruit. Good works. Changed lives.
A living church will preach the gospel without compromise.
My first church had all the bells and whistles and the "spiritual" stuff but they just did not help anyone.
Another way to define a living church is to...open its checkbook. Where is all the money going?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 11:06:51 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2720
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From: Saturn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Another way to define a living church is to...open its checkbook. Where is all the money going?
VERY good point.
_____________________________
"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DEAD"
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 2:37:58 PM
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allisonbrett
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To me a living church is one where the Holy Spirit is truly at work. The church is growing through discipleship, spiritual maturity and bring others to Christ. This can happen where there's a rock band or out of tune piano. It doesn't matter if you meet in a run down building with wooden pews or a convention center with all the media perks.
My thought of a dead church is where there is no joy, no growth no discipleship, no Holy Spirit at work. It's like everyone is going through the motions and following rules of what to do and when. The joy is gone and no one is being brought to Christ
The key is the people and their desire to serve the Lord.
_____________________________
Allison's Mindless Chatter
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 4:26:52 PM
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slushie
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Dead church has no fruit. people who go are not touched... the people may just put on masks and are not encouraged to be real.
Living church = Holy Spirit at work. People are encouraged to step out beyond their comfort zone. They are on fire.
_____________________________
Testify to Love
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 5:03:02 PM
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SuspenseWriter
Posts: 327
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
A dead church has no true interaction of God's love between members.
A living church may only be true conceptually, or intermittently, with halting steps of love between some. It seems to be always out of grasp and perhaps unattainable in a society of the self-absorbed--whose refusal to go through the fires of refining and the efforts required of love--dirty hands, sweat, tears and inconvenience.
Great post!
_____________________________
John Robinson
writer of suspense...obviously!
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/my-journal/
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 5:04:24 PM
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doinkdom
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A living church is full of people who's lives are being transformed by the gospel. Who walk out their sanctification in community. A living church serves without agenda.
A dead church is full of status-quo people satisfied with where they are, not interested in looking outward, but totally focused inward.
_____________________________
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 5:17:04 PM
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HisCovenant
Posts: 4684
Joined: 4/12/2005
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IMO, a dead church is a church in which there are false teachings such that it is not actually the "church invisible." A living church is one that follows Christ. The externals like how modern music is, whether there is SUnday evening and Wed evening services or whether the preaching is "fire & brimstone" or more gently applicable does not enter into it.
One thing I would add is that we also have "unhealthy churches" where the essentials are taught correctly, but where Christ is only the center of certain things. When Christ is the true center and a church is healthy, you will have well rounded "programs" (for lack of a better word) that are commanded in the Bible, such as prayer, use of spiritual gifts, missions, Godly leadership, discipleship, Godly teaching, and genuine worship. If focus is on Christ, all this happens... when focus is not on Christ, we find churches that are "defined" by just one or two of these: seeker friendly; modern worship w/ feel good semon; charismatic (not all forms, but some.) An unhealthy church isn't dead, but is often called a dead church.
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/23/2008 11:58:02 PM
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HisFish
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From: Rocky mountain way
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I think the reason for a lot of dead churches is that the pastor, though learned and full of desire to preach, just wasn't called of God to the pulpit. This isnt limited to pastors though, there are many in positions within the body that went into them ahead of any internal call because of their own desire.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/24/2008 12:32:07 AM
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Shrommer
Posts: 117
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James 2 speaks of faith in three ways: worthless, dead, and imperfect. The opposites of these are a faith (with works and obedience) that is profitable, living/alive, and complete or mature.
The demons believe there is one God, and they tremble. The believe in the existence of God, in theism, in monotheism, ... for the most part, or maybe altogether, their doctrine is correct. But they don't have saving faith, that trust in God that comes from humble repentance and the receiving of His grace. Living faith has action and love, power and charity. You can expect people to lay hands on the sick there, and the sick recover, because they are living as the body of Christ acting on the earth.
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/24/2008 8:50:53 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1221
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
To me a living church is one where the Holy Spirit is truly at work. The church is growing through discipleship, spiritual maturity and bring others to Christ. This can happen where there's a rock band or out of tune piano. It doesn't matter if you meet in a run down building with wooden pews or a convention center with all the media perks.
My thought of a dead church is where there is no joy, no growth no discipleship, no Holy Spirit at work. It's like everyone is going through the motions and following rules of what to do and when. The joy is gone and no one is being brought to Christ
The key is the people and their desire to serve the Lord.
This particular response is my thoughts exactly.
I have always considered a "living" church to be one that is "growing through discipleship, spiritual maturity and bring others to Christ."
Good examples are some churches that we visited during our search for a new church home 6 years ago. Their growth was stagnant. And had been for years. No evidence of growth. And, yet, we live in the middle of a metro area of 6+ million people, and, in our specific area that we live in, it is growing, as more and more people relocate here. To have a church surrounded by neighborhoods full of "lost" people, and the church does nothing to reach out....particularly out of fear that they'll grow, and then eventually not "know everyone" that is in church. To me, that is a "dead church".
Among the things I was "looking for" in a church, was evidence of clear & steady growth....are they "reaching out" to the community...and bringing in others to know Christ and discipling? Or, are they simply "reaching in" to themselves?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/24/2008 9:06:52 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2720
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: Saturn
Status: online
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One church I know of in my community was not afraid to grow, but was so paranoid about people being taken into membership that did not agree with every jot and tiddle of their doctrines and policies and rules, they did not grow. Their "standards" for membership were so high, the new believer or average Christian did not normally qualify.
I don't think that was a healthy church. They are barely keeping the doors open now.
_____________________________
"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DEAD"
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/24/2008 5:21:52 PM
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allisonbrett
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Bluestone, I agree. I know of a few myself.
_____________________________
Allison's Mindless Chatter
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/24/2008 8:52:56 PM
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marcat1702003
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Joined: 7/20/2006
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It's been a long time since I attended a truly healthy church. Sadly, the majority these past few years have been very seeker friendly, community oriented and dead, dead , dead. IT seems to be about growth and money for more growth. They are doing lots of busy good works, but Jesus is seldom at the center. The members don't even look for Christ's return, they have no oil for their lamps! It breaks my heart. They think "Praise and Worship" is the title of the first 15 minutes of a service.
_____________________________
Mary B
"For God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7
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RE: Dead church vs. living church - 6/24/2008 10:15:32 PM
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BibleL7
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My example of living church; nobody cares if they can sing good or not they just sing with all they have, some arent afraid to tell the preacher good sermon I needed to hear that, some ladies care enough to make sure all the kids have a little something to put in offering even if none of the kids are theirs, members arent afraid to say Amen or praise the Lord, a sister or brother call ya brother or sister, when a brother/sister knows your going into town they can ask for a ride and get one or ask you to pick something up for them and not worry if they will get change back, it is not unusual for members to be at other members houses for dinners or barbeque's or pool time or to work on a yard project, people that have vehicles will gladly pick up those that dont for church meetings, nobody complains if the piano player misses a note or two half the time they dont even notice, everybody is willing to pray for a brother or sister, people will know when you are having a bad time, they will know if you are sick and they will tell you they missed ya if you dont go to meeting, when a visitor come in they are asked to give their name and a little about them, members arent afraid to go out and witness the Gospel, when one member has a birthday he/she gets birthday song sung to him/her and if someone knew early enough there is a cake after meeting. And if somethin happens that ya need a little help, even financial, members dont mind helping you out if they can and never think to ask for it back.
Dead Church would be nobody knows anybody elses name, ya can attend for weeks and never have anyone know your name, the music may be good but not many are singing, the only talking is usually gossip, nobody sees anyone else except on Sunday.
Sorry if you all think I am not in agreement but then I will also state just this if they aint born again then they aint a church. And also a church caint be just one cause its gotta be an assembly. And if Christ aint in it then taint a church I dont care if they call themselves one or not
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