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Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/11/2009 2:10:16 AM
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starcraft
Posts: 59
Joined: 4/2/2009
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I'm specifically looking for input on the teachings on prayer in the bible by Jesus and what is taught/accepted thinking within Christianity.
I did a quick concordance study of prayer using the words: pray, prayer, prayest, and ask. Found two parables on prayer taught by Jesus in Luke 11 and 18. Jesus appears to be teaching us in these that the purpose of prayer here was to fulfill our wants/needs/desires. To stick with it and not give up, and the answer (fulfillment) would surely come exactly as we requested. He also adds that God wants it for us, and a warning to remain humble.
In addition to these, (excluding duplicates), here's what else I found taught by Jesus:
Matthew 6:5 - pray sincerely to God and he'll repay you.
Mark 12:40 - Don't pray for show.
Matthew 17:21 - pray to rid demon (our needs)
Matthew 21:22 - Whatever you ask for, believe, and you'll receive.
Matthew 5:44 - Pray for your enemies.
Matthew 24:20 - Pray that your flight may not be in winter (our needs)
Matthew 26:34 - Prayed to avoid the cross.
Luke 22:40 - Pray not to enter temptation.
Matthew 7:7 - Ask, knock, seek...it'll be answered, opened, find, etc.
Matthew 18:19 - If two agree, it'll be done.
John 14:13 and 15:7 - Jesus again teaches the unfailing power of prayer only asking that we abide in him.
Jesus said some amazing things about prayer and he tells us that prayer is powerful and 100% effective. All he asks is that we are persistent, believe, humble and sincere, and abide in him.
I contrast this with what is taught or seems to be popular thinking within Christianity today. I've heard or read such things as:
- We pray because it's our duty or obligation.
- We pray because we love god so much. (christians I know struggle with only 15min/day)
- We are asked to pray simply because god enjoys hearing us
- We pray because it deepens our relationship with God. This may be true, but it certainly doesn't appear this was the point of Jesus's teachings.
I believe we have completely watered down the teachings of Jesus and stripped them of all power. In addition to the above qualifiers Jesus mentioned, our well-intentioned friends and christian authors add a bunch more. Browse the christian books on prayer, and most will have a chapter on unanswered prayer. If you're looking for hope, you'll be deflated as you'll find a myriad of possible reasons your prayer wasn't answered.
It seems that in an effort to appear an authority or provide comfort, we are denying the teachings of our savior to the point that we can have godly men and women all across america praying for lost souls or revival with little success and we've accepted it as being O.K.. We have christian ministries failing. I used this example because it's accurate and I believe it is the most powerful argument against the "will of God" blanket excuse.
So...does anyone else see a disparity? Why or why not?
What would happen if all christians were taught to keep working, and growing until the prayer was answered. Taught to expect the answer instead of accepting defeat and placing the blame on God for not allowing this good thing to happen.
Christian leaders lament the state of the church today and it's growing irrelevence and impotence. I think we've done it to ourselves through our doubt and disbelief. Don't know how satan could be any more effective in stiffling the work of God be convincing God's people to expect nothing from prayer.
Does anyone else see it this way?
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/12/2009 11:09:13 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
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The idea that God will ALWAYS answer our prayers in the way that we, in our sinful nature, desire IS NOT BIBLICAL! God didn't even answer the prayers of his sinless son in that way.
And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done." (Luk 22:41-42 NAS)
This again is echoed in the prayer Jesus used as an example teach us how to pray.
"Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.
'Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
'Give us this day our daily bread.
'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
'For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.'
"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."And whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance in order to be seen fasting by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face so that you may not be seen fasting by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Mat 6:9-21 NAS)
Scripture teaches us that God gives us what we truly need, and not every desire (sinful or not) of our heart. God, just like an earthly father, understands that giving a child everything they desire is not good for a child's heart; God is interested in shaping our heart so that it looks more like his and not in providing us every earthly treasure we desire. The "name it and claim it" theology is a false teaching that doesn't line up with what we are taught in Scripture. Yes, God desire good things for his children, and yes we often do not get them because we do not ask, but God alone truly knows what we need and what desires should and should not be fulfilled. Even unselfishly motivated, Godly desires may not be in our best interest and we need to TRUST GOD when he says NO even to the most righteous desires.
quote:
ORIGINAL: starcraft
I'm specifically looking for input on the teachings on prayer in the bible by Jesus and what is taught/accepted thinking within Christianity.
I did a quick concordance study of prayer using the words: pray, prayer, prayest, and ask. Found two parables on prayer taught by Jesus in Luke 11 and 18. Jesus appears to be teaching us in these that the purpose of prayer here was to fulfill our wants/needs/desires. To stick with it and not give up, and the answer (fulfillment) would surely come exactly as we requested. He also adds that God wants it for us, and a warning to remain humble.
In addition to these, (excluding duplicates), here's what else I found taught by Jesus:
Matthew 6:5 - pray sincerely to God and he'll repay you.
Mark 12:40 - Don't pray for show.
Matthew 17:21 - pray to rid demon (our needs)
Matthew 21:22 - Whatever you ask for, believe, and you'll receive.
Matthew 5:44 - Pray for your enemies.
Matthew 24:20 - Pray that your flight may not be in winter (our needs)
Matthew 26:34 - Prayed to avoid the cross.
Luke 22:40 - Pray not to enter temptation.
Matthew 7:7 - Ask, knock, seek...it'll be answered, opened, find, etc.
Matthew 18:19 - If two agree, it'll be done.
John 14:13 and 15:7 - Jesus again teaches the unfailing power of prayer only asking that we abide in him.
Jesus said some amazing things about prayer and he tells us that prayer is powerful and 100% effective. All he asks is that we are persistent, believe, humble and sincere, and abide in him.
I contrast this with what is taught or seems to be popular thinking within Christianity today. I've heard or read such things as:
- We pray because it's our duty or obligation.
- We pray because we love god so much. (christians I know struggle with only 15min/day)
- We are asked to pray simply because god enjoys hearing us
- We pray because it deepens our relationship with God. This may be true, but it certainly doesn't appear this was the point of Jesus's teachings.
I believe we have completely watered down the teachings of Jesus and stripped them of all power. In addition to the above qualifiers Jesus mentioned, our well-intentioned friends and christian authors add a bunch more. Browse the christian books on prayer, and most will have a chapter on unanswered prayer. If you're looking for hope, you'll be deflated as you'll find a myriad of possible reasons your prayer wasn't answered.
It seems that in an effort to appear an authority or provide comfort, we are denying the teachings of our savior to the point that we can have godly men and women all across america praying for lost souls or revival with little success and we've accepted it as being O.K.. We have christian ministries failing. I used this example because it's accurate and I believe it is the most powerful argument against the "will of God" blanket excuse.
So...does anyone else see a disparity? Why or why not?
What would happen if all christians were taught to keep working, and growing until the prayer was answered. Taught to expect the answer instead of accepting defeat and placing the blame on God for not allowing this good thing to happen.
Christian leaders lament the state of the church today and it's growing irrelevence and impotence. I think we've done it to ourselves through our doubt and disbelief. Don't know how satan could be any more effective in stiffling the work of God be convincing God's people to expect nothing from prayer.
Does anyone else see it this way?
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/12/2009 12:41:35 PM
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starcraft
Posts: 59
Joined: 4/2/2009
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Thanks Benelchi,
quote:
And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done." (Luk 22:41-42 NAS)
Yes, the cross was definitely God's will. Jesus also tells his disciples no when they asked to sit at the right hand of God. These are clear examples. The question then becomes, what is God's will for my life and his creation? I believe Jesus tells us before he left the earth in his teachings. The parable of the talents is one and he also asks us to win the world for God in Matthew 28: 19-20.
quote:
For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."And whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance in order to be seen fasting by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face so that you may not be seen fasting by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Mat 6:9-21 NAS)
I mentioned the first part of this in my post. Jesus does ask us to be sincere in prayer, not a show for men, and again, he tells us that God will answer our prayer in this example. The second part about having earthly treasures does not indicate that having earthly treasures will make prayers ineffective. Seems to be an indication of the proper attitude and mindset. The most Godly examples in the bible were very wealthy and had lots of earthly treasures. Jabez asked for such things and God granted him them.
The whole point of my post is that Jesus teaches great things about prayer, that it is powerful, yet we as Christians expect nothing. I didn't see anything in your post that would suggest why we have so many Godly men and women sincerely praying for souls to be won with no success. Anyone in the faith has seen it...a failed ministry, the secularization of our schools and country. We've all known of individuals with a heart for God who've quit the ministry out of frustration, lack of resources, etc. I can't think of a single example in the bible where it is clear that God did not want souls won for him. The closest example is when Jesus came across that woman WHO WAS NOT OF ISRAEL and she asked for healing of her servent. The healing power of God still went forth and Jesus said it was her faith (in him) that did it.
Why do we as Christians try to imply that prayer is not for our requests as I've read here in these forums and imply that it must not have been the will of God when prayers are not answered. When we personally know people of strong christian character who have failed to do a good thing we state it must not have been his will. If we can't know God's will as some suggest, then why can't we just as often suggest it was his will?
I think we should be experiencing prayer as taught by Jesus, and when we're not, we need to ask what are WE doing wrong. Why am I not experiencing the power of God working through my life.
I can't find anything in the bible to justify the common use of the will of God excuse. This is why I ask the question...are we denying the teachings of Jesus?
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/15/2009 1:32:39 AM
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cgl1023
Posts: 16
Joined: 7/8/2009
Status: offline
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I agree with your appraisal of the situation in the church. I agree with what you surmise about the power we as believers should have in prayer.
I would like to add a few verses that support your thesis, in some cases, and in some cases, add balance. The most important is Heb 11:6, "without faith it is impossible to please God". To that point, James 1:6-8 declares a double minded man cannot receive from God. One's faith should be enduring, unwavering faith, Rom 4:18-21. You may have to wait years for an answer. Most people will not last that long.
Romans 14:23b "... whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Before you pray, you would have to know that you are asking for is something that can be granted. If you are uncertain going in, you would be double minded and would not receive. Related to that is casting your care on Jesus, 1Pet 5:7 so you can be focused, singleminded and anxiety-free.
Further, James 4:2,3 "... ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, ..."
Finally, Mark 11:22-26 assures us that we have what we ask if we do not doubt in our heart, but we believe. Verse 26 seems to say that unforgiveness will hinder prayer.
There are several situations that will hinder prayer: 1.) Double-mindedness and doubt, 2.) unconfessed sin, 3.) wrong motives, 4.) impossible to grant, 5.) taking communion unworthily (1cor 11:27-31) and related is drinking the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons (1Cor 10:21).
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/15/2009 11:55:41 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 599
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
desire IS NOT BIBLICAL! God didn't even answer the prayers of his sinless son in that way.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Bible says, "My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God", so emotions are definitely part of holiness. Hope I'm not missing what you mean.
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/15/2009 1:30:21 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
desire IS NOT BIBLICAL! God didn't even answer the prayers of his sinless son in that way.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Bible says, "My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God", so emotions are definitely part of holiness. Hope I'm not missing what you mean.
Reading my statement in its entirety would help you to understand what I intended.
quote:
The idea that God will ALWAYS answer our prayers in the way that we, in our sinful nature, desire IS NOT BIBLICAL! God didn't even answer the prayers of his sinless son in that way.
I didn't say, nor did I intend to say, that "desire" is not biblical, what I said was that "The idea that God will ALWAYS answer our prayers in the way that we desire is NOT BIBLICAL." The emphasis in my statement was on the word ALWAYS (which you left out when you quoted me), not on the word desire.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/15/2009 5:47:15 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
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My understanding is that God always replies to prayer. It's that He says various things:
Yes! And I'm sending the provision right now!
Yes, but the provision isn't coming right now. I have a plan that is being worked out in the world, and My timing isn't your timing.
No, that's not good for you or for My kingdom.
No, and I have My reasons for refusing this request.
Not right now, because you need to grow and be more ready to receive the provision that will come.
What I'm not sure of is the teaching that our unconfessed sin prevents the communion (it doesn't end our Father-child relationship with Him) and blocks us from hearing His reply and receiving the provision when it's time.
Some have argued against that theory.
benelchi, maybe you can shed some light on this for me. Thanks!
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/16/2009 12:52:03 AM
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agapist
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There is a catch to getting the desires of your heart; they hinge on finding delight in the lord. Take delight in the lord, and your prayers are answered.
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/16/2009 7:16:29 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
There is a catch to getting the desires of your heart; they hinge on finding delight in the lord. Take delight in the lord, and your prayers are answered.
I will add to this what is a key concept in prayer. Through prayer, God is shaping us, molding us into further obedience. It is the communing of the Spirit that strips us of ourselves.
When we focus upon the Lord, our hearts do change. Our desires change. We pray believing and receiving. The catch to that is our desires have become what God desires for us.
No name it and claim it. Through His stripping us, there is more of Him and less of us.
He is not a Santa Clause. Although we do have the ability to ask Him for what we want and what we need, He knows so much better for us those things. This is where faith meets the road. if our prayers are not answered the way we see fit, do we begin to doubt or do we trust that our thinking was not in line with His and patiently, joyfully wait on His answer?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/16/2009 10:33:07 AM
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starcraft
Posts: 59
Joined: 4/2/2009
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quote:
I will add to this what is a key concept in prayer. Through prayer, God is shaping us, molding us into further obedience. It is the communing of the Spirit that strips us of ourselves.
In all that I've read that Jesus teaches us about prayer, I don't recall this. In virtually every example he uses, he presents prayer as a way to accomplish things for us. To fulfill our needs/wants/desires. Maybe you could point out where it is found, I would think if it were a key concept, he would have mentioned it at least once.
In addition to not appearing to be a central theme of his teachings, I don't like that it appears to be another slippery slope to accepting powerless prayers. Like the will of God argument, it can be used as a blanket excuse, and it places the blame on God therefore allowing us to maintain our integrity in our failed prayers.
I would like to add that belief and persistance are key concepts in prayer as taught by Jesus and how much harder it is to maintain these in our prayers when in the back of our minds, we're doubting they'll be answered anyway due to the reasons you put forth and will of God teachings.
< Message edited by starcraft -- 10/16/2009 10:52:00 AM >
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/16/2009 11:27:17 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
In virtually every example he uses, he presents prayer as a way to accomplish things for us. To fulfill our needs/wants/desires.
Only if those needs/wants/desires are in line with His will and character.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/16/2009 11:13:30 PM
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AbidingJoy
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Paul asked three times to have his 'thorn in the flesh' removed. God's answer was "My grace is sufficient for thee".
For me personally, if God had said "yes" to every request I made to Him, my goodness, my life would have been a disaster. God knew best. He knows all of our days (Psalm 139).
I don't blame God if He doesn't answer the way I think he should. I accept that God has my best interests at heart. We must accept that God says "No". Every good parent tells their children "No" from time to time. We were never promised a life without difficulties.
Blessings ...........
< Message edited by AbidingJoy -- 10/16/2009 11:22:50 PM >
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/19/2009 10:05:48 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
There is a catch to getting the desires of your heart; they hinge on finding delight in the lord. Take delight in the lord, and your prayers are answered.
I interpret the "I will give you the desires of your heart" as
God giving us His desires. Our heart belongs to Him so He
fills it. He isn't a new sugar daddy.
When it's our desires, you can be sure it's the lust of the eye.
So, when we come to Him, He fills us with His desires.
That was the one and only desire of Jesus, to fulfill the Father's will.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/19/2009 2:39:38 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
My understanding is that God always replies to prayer. It's that He says various things:
Yes! And I'm sending the provision right now!
Yes, but the provision isn't coming right now. I have a plan that is being worked out in the world, and My timing isn't your timing.
No, that's not good for you or for My kingdom.
No, and I have My reasons for refusing this request.
Not right now, because you need to grow and be more ready to receive the provision that will come.
The "Secret" to getting prayer answered is no "Secret" at all, it is very plainly and simply laid our here;
(1Jn 5:14) And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
(1Jn 5:15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/20/2009 10:51:41 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Ditto to RC...........
"according to his will" is the key.
God will not honor anything contrary to his will.
Blab-it grab-it doctrines are a twisting of the Word.
We are ambassadors of Christ.
Just envision an ambassador of a foreign country.
They do the bidding of the one they represent,
they don't do their own thing. When they are found
out not representing their country they are recalled,
not rewarded.
An ambassador's heart is the heart of the country they represent.
So a Christians heart is the heart of the Father. Doing His' desires.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/20/2009 11:38:07 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
In all that I've read that Jesus teaches us about prayer, I don't recall this. In virtually every example he uses, he presents prayer as a way to accomplish things for us. To fulfill our needs/wants/desires. Maybe you could point out where it is found, I would think if it were a key concept, he would have mentioned it at least once.
It's not in word's it's demonstrated. Look at how God grew and molded David in the Psalms.
No slippery slope here!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/20/2009 11:46:57 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
I would like to add that belief and persistance are key concepts in prayer as taught by Jesus and how much harder it is to maintain these in our prayers when in the back of our minds, we're doubting they'll be answered anyway due to the reasons you put forth and will of God teachings
What part of what I said indicates any sort of doubting? Everything I said has to do with a complete faith. Did you misread or misinterpret what I stated.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/20/2009 12:30:39 PM
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starcraft
Posts: 59
Joined: 4/2/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
I will add to this what is a key concept in prayer. Through prayer, God is shaping us, molding us into further obedience. It is the communing of the Spirit that strips us of ourselves.
Jesus doesn't teach this. He does teach in Luke 11 and 18 that we are to have persistence. So...if I'm praying for bread and have not yet received it, I can believe what Jesus teaches and keep at it, or I can conclude that he has no intention of granting my request and is merely using my prayer to grow me.
quote:
What part of what I said indicates any sort of doubting? Everything I said has to do with a complete faith
Jesus does teach that a doubtful, double minded person will receive nothing from the lord. So, if I approach prayer believing that either my prayer request will be fulfilled, OR God is merely using it to grow me, I'm doubtful of the outcome. It's this type of reasoning along with the 'will of god' teaching that I believe has been so damaging to God's call to reach the world for him. It breeds doubt, lack of persistence, and acceptance of failure.
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/20/2009 2:46:12 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Jesus does teach that a doubtful, double minded person will receive nothing from the lord. So, if I approach prayer believing that either my prayer request will be fulfilled, OR God is merely using it to grow me, I'm doubtful of the outcome. It's this type of reasoning along with the 'will of god' teaching that I believe has been so damaging to God's call to reach the world for him. It breeds doubt, lack of persistence, and acceptance of failure.
I highly disagree. Either God is going to answer your prayer because it IS in line with His will or he is going to tell you No because it is NOT His will for your life.
Sometimes He says not now and THAT is when our persistence pays off. It is through that persistence that our faith grows, relying upon the Lord for His will, not our own to be done.
When we approach God asking for things and praying for an outcome we desire, then we become disappointed and lack faith. It starts with where our hearts are when we go to Him in prayer. Our will or His be done?
BTW, that waiting, is God stripping us of ourselves and our desires, molding us into His desires. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/20/2009 2:53:12 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starcraft
Jesus does teach that a doubtful, double minded person will receive nothing from the lord. So, if I approach prayer believing that either my prayer request will be fulfilled, OR God is merely using it to grow me, I'm doubtful of the outcome. It's this type of reasoning along with the 'will of god' teaching that I believe has been so damaging to God's call to reach the world for him. It breeds doubt, lack of persistence, and acceptance of failure.
Then how do you explain the countless number of Christians who have not only been beaten, tortured, and imprisoned over the years but also EXECUTED because of their faith? Do you think they weren't strong enough in their faith?
Truly, I don't understand your reasoning. Sounds too WoF to me.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/20/2009 2:54:20 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starcraft
Jesus does teach that a doubtful, double minded person will receive nothing from the lord. So, if I approach prayer believing that either my prayer request will be fulfilled, OR God is merely using it to grow me, I'm doubtful of the outcome. It's this type of reasoning along with the 'will of god' teaching that I believe has been so damaging to God's call to reach the world for him. It breeds doubt, lack of persistence, and acceptance of failure.
Say you have a dearly beloved and completely trusting son of 4 and he asks you to give him a loaded pistol and permission to go into the woods by himself to play with it, are you going to give it to him simply because he completely believes you'll do so?
I'm going to take a chance that your answer is no and just add that God is no more an obedient genii to His beloved redeemed children than you would be in that situation.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/21/2009 1:07:07 PM
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starcraft
Posts: 59
Joined: 4/2/2009
Status: offline
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I've found two parables on prayer as taught by Jesus. Luke 11 and 18. In both, the central point he seems to be trying to impress upon us is persistence, not questioning wheather the requests are within the will of God. Jesus repeatedly affirms the power of prayer through belief and persistence, while mentioning God's will a few times. We as Christians seem to do the opposite...why? This is why I raised the question in this thread.
I believe it's incorrect to conclude that in the entire bible and the three years of Jesus's ministry that we wouldn't be told what God's will is. He seems to tell us in another of his parables, the parable of the talents and elsewhere.
I think some who claim we can't know the will of God in prayer are inadvertently telling us they know exactly what God's will is as their level of objection varies depending on what the request is...wheather it's a prayer for revival or a personal request.
I do believe we as christians overuse questioning the will of god in prayer and that it's destructive as it creates doubt and lack of persistence. I've experienced this personally. Having grown up in the church, wanting to do God's will, I gave up something very valuable because the prayers concerning it weren't answered. Not knowing the bible like I do now, I concluded it must not be Gods will because that's what I was taught. I now know my thinking that God didn't want it for me were completely false. It was all me! Had I persisted in it, this good thing for me and my family would be reality. How many others praying for good things for people, a ministry, etc. quit praying too soon as someone came along them and suggested it's not his will, he must have something better for you. As soon as you begin to believe that, your prayer is dead.
Thanks all for contributing, seems kinda pointless to continue as we appear to be going in cirlces.
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RE: Do we doubt our bible and the teachings of Jesus? - 10/21/2009 2:01:48 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
I now know my thinking that God didn't want it for me were completely false. It was all me! Had I persisted in it, this good thing for me and my family would be reality.
How do you know?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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