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Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 9/22/2009 2:28:28 PM
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northstar
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where it specifically says that Messiah will come to the earth twice?
If there aren't any 'specific' verses, does anyone know which verses are generally used in support of this?
Thanks. :)
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Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 9/22/2009 3:01:32 PM
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LCannon
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'Again he[Jesus]said to them, "I am going away, and you will search for me, but you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come."(John 8:21)
'In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again(when he sets up His Kingdom)and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also.'(John 14:2, 3)
Both instances are pre-pentecostal to Acts 2 when the indwelt HS was given as an inheritance guarantee to the redeemed church. That establish the church of Christ Jesus not an artificial device of men. The OT rarely even alludes to the church as an entity.
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especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 9/22/2009 3:27:15 PM
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northstar
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Thanks for that. I'm actually just looking for Old Testament verses though, things that the prophets wrote which said in advance that Jesus would come once to die, then go, then come back to reign.
Thanks.
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Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 9/22/2009 4:53:30 PM
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lkspringer
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No verses in particular, but in Isaiah prophecies of the suffering servant and the conquering king are present. One might infer two comings.
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 9/23/2009 8:21:59 AM
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DaveW
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Just as in the current church and recent church history there is a plethora of end-time scenarios; post trib, mid trib and pre trib raptures, premil post mil etc, and various flavors of those as well; it was the same in late 2nd temple period Judaism. There were a few different versions that had 2 messiahs: Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yosef. Ben Yosef was the suffering servant that prepared the way for the decendant of King David to reign. Several versions had both Messiahs being the same person.
There was a scholarly research article published in Kesher Journal several years ago. You might contact UMJC.org to see if they would send you a copy.
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Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 9/23/2009 3:58:37 PM
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northstar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Just as in the current church and recent church history there is a plethora of end-time scenarios; post trib, mid trib and pre trib raptures, premil post mil etc, and various flavors of those as well; it was the same in late 2nd temple period Judaism. There were a few different versions that had 2 messiahs: Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yosef. Ben Yosef was the suffering servant that prepared the way for the decendant of King David to reign. Several versions had both Messiahs being the same person.
There was a scholarly research article published in Kesher Journal several years ago. You might contact UMJC.org to see if they would send you a copy.
That's interesting. I didn't realise that the doctrine/theory of Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David were from that time in history...I just thought that it was something that Christian scholars had come up with more recently than that.
Thanks for the info...
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 9/23/2009 5:12:27 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
That's interesting. I didn't realise that the doctrine/theory of Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David were from that time in history...I just thought that it was something that Christian scholars had come up with more recently than that.
Thanks for the info...
There have been many who have claimed or been given the title of HaMashiach since the babylonian exile. This is no doubt behind Yeshua's admonition to pay no attention to those who say He is over here or He is over there. HaMeshiach is not a "superstar", but is known by His works, as Yeshua told the disciples of John.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/3/2009 1:47:06 PM
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pabrain
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Thank you northstar for your question.
Does anyone know any verses in the OT, where it specifically says that Messiah will come to the earth twice?
Well how about verse 2 of Isaiah Ch 61, below
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to [those who are] bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,
"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD", is for Messiah's first visit, " And the day of vengeance of our God", is for His second visit. That is the reason why Jesus stopped reading where He did,
Luk 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the LORD [is] upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to [the] poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, [fn] To proclaim liberty to [the] captives And recovery of sight to [the] blind, [To] set at liberty those who are oppressed;
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/3/2009 6:05:05 PM
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northstar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Thank you northstar for your question.
Does anyone know any verses in the OT, where it specifically says that Messiah will come to the earth twice?
Well how about verse 2 of Isaiah Ch 61, below
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to [those who are] bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,
"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD", is for Messiah's first visit, " And the day of vengeance of our God", is for His second visit. That is the reason why Jesus stopped reading where He did,
Luk 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the LORD [is] upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to [the] poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, [fn] To proclaim liberty to [the] captives And recovery of sight to [the] blind, [To] set at liberty those who are oppressed;
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."
Every blessing.
Edwin.
Thanks for that. I do understand what you've said...the only problem with that is that one has to approach those verses with the belief that Yeshua is the Messiah. For someone who doesn't believe that, and who believes everything will be accomplished in one hit, those verses wouldn't help much. That's why I was looking for verses which specifically say there will be two comings of Messiah...
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/3/2009 7:26:07 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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Isaiah 11:11?
And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand a second time to recover the the remnant of His people who are left,-
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 3:51:40 AM
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pabrain
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Hi again northstar.
You say,
"the only problem with that is that one has to approach those verses with the belief that Yeshua is the Messiah".
I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah because He said He is,
Jhn 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."
Jhn 4:26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."
You also say,
"For someone who doesn't believe that,"
Are you saying that when Jesus said, "I who speak to you am he." He was mistaken?
If so why?
Edwin.
< Message edited by pabrain -- 10/5/2009 8:39:40 AM >
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 4:31:01 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
where it specifically says that Messiah will come to the earth twice?
If there aren't any 'specific' verses, does anyone know which verses are generally used in support of this?
Thanks. :)
As I think you've seen....there aren't any verses which say that the Lord Jesus Christ will come to this earth again to reign. He says that He will come in the air with angels and the souls of those believers in heaven:
1Thes 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 10:44:38 AM
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pabrain
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Northstar,
I would have preferred to send to you what follows by private post, however, you have chosen not to disclose your profile.
Let me ask you four questions,
1. Do you believe that Isaiah Ch 61:2 referrers to two visits?
2. Why are you concerned only with OT, verses?
3. Are you a Jew, if not do you want to witness to Jew's?
4. Do you consider the NT, to be the work of God, or of man?
Thank you.
Edwin.
< Message edited by pabrain -- 10/5/2009 10:51:31 AM >
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 12:24:24 PM
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justpassinby
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I would have to concur with pabrain regarding Isaiah 61:1-2 and what is commonly called the "gap" theory. The theory is also used in end time prophecy.
There is no direct mention that I am aware that Messiah would come twice, and this is the reason the Jews had problems with Jesus. However, as one commentator mentioned (although I can't think of his name off hand) said, That Isaiah was like looking at two mountains from a distance and between them is a valley. To an observer, they may look the same (as in the same distance),but in fact are separated by a gulf.
Now, before I throw in gap theory, let me state things about Israel. This will clinch the matter even though two comings is not directly mentioned.
First of all, we had types and shadows in the feast days---- Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits (pointing to the suffering servant and the work of Christ), and then Pentecost (the Holy Spirit) and then the "gap" before the autumn festivals trumpets (Second Coming and gatherings---i.e the "Trumpet will sound") Atonement, and Tabernacles (the Kingdom Age). As Paul accurately pointed out, there is prophecy in the feast days, and the fact that the first groups of feasts occur in rapid succession and the later group of feats also occur together, but there is a gap in between shows there is a prophetic significance to the time span.
Secondly, let's consider Israel as a "nation" itself. I say "nation" because actually they were prophesied to become many nations and after their exile as Gentiles. This gets into "lost tribes" theory. However, let me point out a passage in Zechariah 11:10-14
And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. [this is the house of Israel]
Zec:11:11: And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Zec:11:12: And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. [this is the suffering servant, Christ as prophesied]
Zec:11:13: And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Zec:11:14: Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. [These are the Jews, as they rejected Messiah, and there is now Judaism and Christianity because of Christ. The former was adopted by the Jews, the latter by the "Gentile" house of Israel later in their dispersed state]
Then..... in the end time, the two sticks (Ezekiel 37) or the two "nations" of God, Israel and Judah will be reunited again with Messiah reigning over them.
So, we can indisputably conclude that Ezekiel 37 did not occur yet, and indeed nothing this glorious ever occurred yet, but since Jesus came to die, only a victorious (and thus Returning) Messiah could do that.
This is why I laugh my bottom off every time I hear the verse where the Jews mocked Jesus saying, " Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? In other words, they were asking if Jesus was going to the lost tribes (which nobody but Messiah knew where they were and and only he could only restore them), i.e "dispersed amongst the Gentiles" to teach them which goes to show how "Gentilized" they realized their lost brethren were. Unless one understands lost tribes teaching, this passage goes over like a lead balloon. One can gauge one's scriptural understanding as to how hardy one laughs at this verse, because it's one of the funniest ones in the bible.
When Jews say that Messiah did not come yet, in a sense they are correct---- He did not come back yet as the Victorious Messiah. They just are too blind to see that the same one had to suffer first, and since Jesus quoted scripture and said He was coming back again, that's all the proof we really need anyway.
And since the Jews today are not all 12 tribes, the Israelites and Jews MUST be rejoined and return to the land of Israel. Therefore again, Messiah must still come back a second time to accomplish this (see Isaiah 11:11).
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 4:08:43 PM
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northstar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Hi again northstar.
You say,
"the only problem with that is that one has to approach those verses with the belief that Yeshua is the Messiah".
I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah because He said He is,
Jhn 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."
Jhn 4:26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."
You also say,
"For someone who doesn't believe that,"
Are you saying that when Jesus said, "I who speak to you am he." He was mistaken?
If so why?
Edwin.
Of course I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah otherwise I wouldn't be here on a Christian forum. I'm looking for some advice because I see that in the NT, Paul was able to reason from the 'Scriptures' (the Old Testament, as he didn't have a NT), that Yeshua was the Messiah. I'd like to be able to do the same thing.
Secondly, the Jewish people that I know generally don't have what I would term 'blind faith'...they want reasons, and solid answers to meaty questions...they think deeply about things and chew things over, and I don't just want cliched answers for them. Also, they don't believe in the NT, so to get into conversation with a Jewish person means you need really to be able to reason things from the part of the Bible that they believe in.
And the problem is that if a person doesn't believe the NT, to use the NT to explain that Messiah will come twice, to them is just an excuse, a convenient theory for why he didn't fulfill everything the first time around, and a way of explaining away the prophesies that haven't been fulfilled yet. Which is why I need to explain and reason from the OT, that Messiah will come twice.
I hope I have explained myself sufficiently to you.
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 4:15:25 PM
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northstar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Northstar,
I would have preferred to send to you what follows by private post, however, you have chosen not to disclose your profile.
Let me ask you four questions,
1. Do you believe that Isaiah Ch 61:2 referrers to two visits?
2. Why are you concerned only with OT, verses?
3. Are you a Jew, if not do you want to witness to Jew's?
4. Do you consider the NT, to be the work of God, or of man?
Thank you.
Edwin.
No worries, though I think I explained myself clearly enough in the previous post, specifically with regards to your second question.
And I think the rest follows from that.
However, for the record, yes I am a Christian, though I consider myself to be Messianic, and take the OT just as seriously as I take the NT.
No I am not Jewish, but I have known lots of people who are, and I wouldn't want to fail them as miserably as I have before.
And obviously as a Christian, I believe the entire Bible.
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 4:29:34 PM
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northstar
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With regards to Isaiah 61, as a Christian, of course I believe the second part of the verse will be fulfilled at the second coming.
But the same problem exists - when trying to reason with someone who doesn't use the NT, it's just a convenient way of explaining why Yeshua 'failed' to fulfill the whole verse when he walked the earth 2000 years ago.
And even if we believe the entire Bible, it's a good thing to ask ourselves whether we believe something just because we've been taught it, or whether we believe it because it's true. And I for one, have no problem being like the Bereans and searching the Scriptures (OT) to see if what Paul and the rest of the NT writers says is true. Because what I find *should* reinforce my own faith, and in turn help me to help others. And if it doesn't stack up, then I get to find out whether I believe it because I've been taught it, and not because it's true. And I'm not just talking about this whole 'two comings' thing, I'm talking about all the little bits and pieces that one takes for granted as being Christian, when in reality lots of things are just the traditions of men...
As Yeshua said, the Pharisees were teaching as doctrines of God, the traditions of men. I want to make sure I know the difference between the two in my own life...and the only way to do that is to sometimes ask the seemingly unanswerable questions, and to delve deep, and to not be afraid of questioning and wrestling with the answers, and I could care less if my lack of 'blind faith', or my questioning is threatening to anyone else, because it's me that has to resolve the issues, and when I stand before God I'm not accountable for what others believe, but only myself, and when the Bible tells us to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling', that's what I intend to do, and also to be 'able to give a reason (not a cliche) for the hope that is within me'.
< Message edited by northstar -- 10/5/2009 4:40:35 PM >
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 4:58:14 PM
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northstar
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justpassinby, thanks for your long reply...
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Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/5/2009 8:54:17 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
I'm looking for some advice because I see that in the NT, Paul was able to reason from the 'Scriptures' (the Old Testament, as he didn't have a NT), that Yeshua was the Messiah. I'd like to be able to do the same thing.
haha! Ypu remind me of me! 
i was trying to get the 'mind' of Paul.
Justpassin posted a very good OT study of the messiah- the OT feast.
i would look deep into that part of scriptures. Jews are prophetically orientated people. They will have no problems with prophecy of the feasts in my opinion.
Another is Jesus fulfiling all those OT prophecies....who has done that? NONE!
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/6/2009 7:36:34 AM
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pabrain
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Thank you northstar for your posts, which confirm what I suspected.
I also consider myself to be Messianic, and have been greatly blessed by the teaching to be found at,
http://www.moriel.org/Moriel_UK/Moriel_UK.html & http://www.ariel.org/
I am well aware of the problems faced by Jews in becoming Messianic Jews, and would never dream of quoting the NT, in fact I would take advice from the way in which Peter inspired by the Holy Spirit spoke when there was no NT, when, "there were added that day about three thousand souls", all of whom were either Jews or proselytes.
The problem then, as now, was not two visits of Messiah, but,
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
Which is why Peter said,
Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know--
Note: not that, "he did", but, "that God did through him".
Note also the last verse of his message,
Act 2:36 "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
What happened?
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If the verses of Scripture I have quoted above causes you to think have I a problem with the Deity of the second person of the Trinity, then please rest assured I do not.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
< Message edited by pabrain -- 10/6/2009 7:44:03 AM >
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/6/2009 7:58:24 PM
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Bluethread
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I think it is best not to proof text from the Tanach. One thing about the Scriptures, Tanach or Apistolic Writings, they can be spiritualiazed and combined in many ways that allow one to avoid just about any subject. I think the best approach is to discuss the Tanach as it comes along, whether the Parasha(portion) for the week speaks directly to HaMeshiach or not. Trust is very important and the best way to build trust is to show the person one is talking to that one does not have a hidden agenda. Get a calander with the rabbinic reading schedule on it. Then read the Parasha each week so you are prepared to discuss the "topic of the week" with any jewish person you might encounter. If the parasha happens to relate in some way to HaMeshiach, one could then gently introduce the topic without necessarily bring up Yeshua. Then if the discussion goes well, one mighty then ask that person about what "some say" about Yeshua in that regard.
Now do not do these things as a means to an end, but to honestly engage the person in conversation. In doing this , you will also find the passages you are looking for.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/7/2009 3:41:39 PM
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northstar
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nm...
< Message edited by northstar -- 10/7/2009 4:47:00 PM >
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Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/7/2009 3:48:06 PM
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northstar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I think it is best not to proof text from the Tanach. One thing about the Scriptures, Tanach or Apistolic Writings, they can be spiritualiazed and combined in many ways that allow one to avoid just about any subject.
I agree.
quote:
I think the best approach is to discuss the Tanach as it comes along, whether the Parasha(portion) for the week speaks directly to HaMeshiach or not. Trust is very important and the best way to build trust is to show the person one is talking to that one does not have a hidden agenda. Get a calander with the rabbinic reading schedule on it. Then read the Parasha each week so you are prepared to discuss the "topic of the week" with any jewish person you might encounter. If the parasha happens to relate in some way to HaMeshiach, one could then gently introduce the topic without necessarily bring up Yeshua. Then if the discussion goes well, one mighty then ask that person about what "some say" about Yeshua in that regard.
Now do not do these things as a means to an end, but to honestly engage the person in conversation. In doing this , you will also find the passages you are looking for.
I think you are right. There is nothing more off putting to a person than thinking they are a 'target' for evangelism. Fortunately, I'm out to learn as much as I can too, and I love to find out what people think of the Tanach from the point of view of their Jewish culture, and not just from a 'Christian' point of view.
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/7/2009 3:50:28 PM
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northstar
Posts: 189
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justpassinby, I think the feasts are indeed a good place to look at the whole issue from. Thanks.
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Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Does anyone know any verses in the OT... - 10/7/2009 4:59:52 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Then this is a good time to start. The rabbinic reading calander begins on Oct. 17 this year.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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