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Doubt and Salvation - 8/26/2008 6:33:47 AM
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PhrozenPhoenix
Posts: 249
Joined: 4/18/2005
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I know there are a lot of posts about feeling abandoned or irredeemable lost lonely etc. But what about when doubt creeps in?
I remember way back when when no matter how bad I felt I didn't doubt my salvation. I knew if I'd died I'd go to heaven. The thing is I've never been very Christian inside during this time either. I mean, I believed in Jesus and all and the trinity and I had a full understanding of the gospel etc. I didn't read the bible though, I swore like sailor at school, and I lived in constant anxiety and self worthlessness. I even had warped prayers where I wished God would kill me in my sleep so I could just go to heaven. But I mean I never doubted.
But see when I got older I was still feeling extremely empty and I heard some songs from a Christian band, I loved the lyrics and I wanted that kind of relationship like those band members had. So I had this really high feeling you know I was gonna change everything about me and maybe I wasn't a Christian like I thought before. K so now I'm not depressed as much and all, cause I feel things will get better, I'll go to church blah blah blah. But then after months wrestling with stuff I start getting all down again. And now I'm thinking well if I thought I was a Christian before and I wasn't, maybe I'm still not a Christian and I'm only fooling myself. Rinse wash repeat... Ok well I know God doesn't keep throwing you around. You don't gain lose gain lose gain lose and salvation isn't based on feelings or how you feel about yourself or whatever.
Ok so thats been covered before on the boards. But what about these times when actual doubt creeps in? Like the existence of God. Thinking about it one way, I see actual no possible way for God not to exist. But at other times you know you're reading about other gods and how people feel good who don't have Jesus in their life, or non-Christians who act more Christian than you do. And you start thinking? And sometimes you like feel God doesn't exist at all and maybe you're an atheist or something and you just don't wanna believe it. You know I try not to doubt sometimes and deep down and I don't think I do or else I wouldn't worry about it (or maybe I would cause I don't think if I felt God didn't exist and there is no Jesus to greet me at the end, life isn't worth it anyway), and I wouldn't continue to pray. But sometimes when I'm praying to God once in a while something creeps in and its like, what if you're just talking to yourself?
I ask God to change me but he never really seems to. I know God exists, I mean in the right frame of mind, I don't see how anyone cannot believe in God just sitting out in nature for a little bit. Studying an animal, watching natural wonders like waterfalls etc. But still there are times when you still doubt a little bit or you go through like a couple days completely unsure. God said we shouldn't be like the tide... so why do I doubt still? Am I saved? Can you be saved if you were saved and then doubted? Both your salvation and God all together? I mean I don't know if I ever 100% doubted, I don't care how bad off I was I could never EVER get myself to say there is no God out loud and I don't want to. But I'm just saying... how can you be saved if you're like the tide going in and out of both spiritual high points where you feel absolutely great, thanking God for a wonderful day and then days where you're not even sure about what you believe? And then when you go back out you wonder if because of that, you STILL are not a Christian. But if I say ok Jesus this time I'm REALLY sorry. This time I REALLY mean it... its hard to be sure of yourself. I mean, God knows the future so maybe he knows I'm full of **** cause he knows I'll just do it again?
And I really don't feel saved most of the time to begin with anyway. I'm selfish, envious, bitter, judgmental, angry blah blah (not all the time but I'm just saying). Even when I'm happy it seems I just want to change and be some model Christian more for my self than for God. I like Christian people (well some). I'd like to be like that but I'm not really. And I don't mean a bible thumper or someone who goes around shouting praise God to anyone who will listen. But someone who just lives life fully, happy, looks out for others, never looking on others with judgmental eyes, or envious ones for that matter. Completely proud of who I am, the way God made me blah blah. Oh and completely sure!! You know not feeling fake when talking about the wonderful things God has done in your life or whatever cause you don't even know if you're saved or not. Some people talk and you just wanna role your eyes cause they sound so fake praising God (I don't know to get attention? To try and witness that way?) but others who don't have to mention God at all and they're so genuine cause you actually see it, not just hear it.
Anyway... ya... I dunno. This also makes me think of the unforgivable sin and all that "anyone who tasted the Holy Spirit and turned away cannot come back cause it would be like crucifying Jesus over and over again" and stuff but I've posted enough as it is... So can you doubt and still be saved? How? If you're born again, they why do you still put the world first so much still? Does that mean you aren't saved? I hear people always say "Oh I became a Christian and I instantly stopped cussing, blah blha blha blah", "God took all my depression away" "All my fears went a way" "I stopped doing drugs blah blah blah" Well I still cuss (and I don't even think its bad... more of just a cultural thing so I don't swear around people but I'm not bothered a lone by it or using it when needed), I never had any fantastic experience or change happen. I try to change but I'm not very successful. I ask God to change me and I don't really see it. I think God would be sick of me anyway being such a yoyo... Exactly like the type of person Jesus said not to be. So if Gods not changing me was I never saved? In the future does God see me like totally leaving him so he never accepts me now? What if I died in a down moment would I still go to heaven? Say I just was kind of on a walking down the street contemplating God's existence and got hit by a car even though had I lived, the next day would have been a great day and I would have been thanking him and apologizing for the night before?
K I'll shut up I'll end up repeating myself a gagillion more times >.< Simple, can you doubt and be saved? What I mean is will he accept you back? And what if you do it again in the future?
(I'm sorry I didn't mean to write the great american novel and didn't realize I did >.< I'll edit it later... to tired to weed through all that garbage right now)
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RE: Doubt and Salvation - 8/26/2008 11:39:42 AM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
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Personally, I think what you have written here is honesty.
We all go through trials and tribulations of a sort or other. The warefare is always trying to cause doubt, fears or what ever to keep one from trusting the creator of all.
Okay if you were in a junkyard. And a wind picked up as if a tornado, and when this strong wind was done there was a jet ready for take off.
Quite impossible hah?
So how is it that our universe is so well put together that there is life here and sustained. If the sun was any closer we would all burn up. If the sun was further away we would freeze to death.
But what created this all this in such a way that life is here?
Think on this if the sun doubted it 's existence, purpose the light would go out instantly.
The same with the moon.
The world creates doubt, but here we are in existance, trying to get back to the garden, where the knowledge was non nexistent of doubt.
Jesus through the death, burial and ressurection, truly has restored the believer in him back to this garden, where one trusts, works, remembers to let Jesus take their place on a daily practice.
God knows you believe, knows you desire to be with him, just like the thief that was on the cross, and it was granted to him by belief.
So I say seek , do not give up, you have found, he is faithful, and halleluah we are not. For if we were faithful, we would not need Jesus the savior would we? So glory in your doubt, through it one finds him.
Saul doubted and had a great zeal for God. Then God showed him his error which was unbelief (Doubt)
Paul came to the point that nothing could seperate him from the love of God. You are on your way to know this personally as well.
Do not give up, shut up, let up, until you have stayed up, prayed up, paid up, and spoken up for the cause of Christ.
There is light at the end of the tunnel
ineffable love
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RE: Doubt and Salvation - 8/27/2008 5:08:21 AM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
K I'll shut up I'll end up repeating myself a gagillion more times >.< Simple, can you doubt and be saved? What I mean is will he accept you back? And what if you do it again in the future?
I won't quote your entire OP but I think this line is the gist of what you are asking.
A simple answer to your question is this: yes, you can doubt and still be saved.
But I have a much more broad answer for you, which is this:
Although you mention that you have these "doubts" about God, it seems that the real issue of "doubt" is the doubting of yourself. That's really what fearing of salvation is all about: self-doubt. And this is actually good, since it demonstrates humility.
Narcissism and arrogant self-confidence is one of the greatest liabilities to individual men and women today; and civilization, in general.
On the other hand, there seems to be underlying assumptions about God, yourself and life (in general), that are--perhaps--unrealistic and untenable.
For instance, you seem to be supposing the idea that, if God does exist, then life should be "happy, happy, joy, joy"; as though the Christian life ought to be free from struggle. Unfortunately, this isn't the case. This is a very common belief, of which you are hardly alone in believing.
Secondly, it seems that you're "hooked on a feeling", to borrow from an old classic rock song; and God, if He does exist, is supposed to somehow help you deal with those unpleasant feelings that arise the moment "doubt" enters your thoughts; or to stop you from thinking about anything at all. And this belief, coupled with the strong emotional pulls, can only leave you exhausted and highly frustrated. I say this, not to shame you, but to try and relate my own struggles with doubt with yours. And, I'm sure, your story is much more complex and nuanced than you could possibly include, or even want to include, in this post.
I'm not a Doctor, but I do play one on T.V., in my daydreams...hehe...(an old commercial joke).
But seriously, it sounds to me like you have the tendency towards OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). My advice would be to see a medical Doctor and ask to have some tests done. Explain to him or her what you are experiencing (repetitive thoughts accompanied by anxiety that you try to make go away, but which always returns); let him/her know that this is disrupting your life, affecting your thinking and decisions, and making you miserable. Mention that someone had told you that you might have OCD, and see what the Doctor says. If he/she sends you to a specialist, and if you can afford it, then by all means try to get some help. You don't have to continue with this when this condition is easily treatable, sometimes without any medicines!!
Also, try to do some research on OCD and see if, maybe, my "diagnosis" isn't so far from the truth; even before you decide to see someone. Sometimes, just discovering that you have some health issue, automatically lifts the burden of fear, anxiety and depression because you are no longer "in the dark" about something that's happening to you.
OCD is a brain disorder where the neurological circuitry of the brain gets "stuck" in a loop; sort of like a broken record, but with "thoughts" and "feelings", instead of sound. Hence the swinging between repetitive thoughts and feelings; in your case, between "faith" feelings and skeptical thoughts and existential fears.
Perhaps much of your "doubts" will be put to rest when you begin to understand better that what you might be experiencing is explained, almost entirely, by some health problem.
Of course, OCD or some other neurological issue is only one side of the coin. I don't believe that medical science is the ultimate "cure" for anything; at best, it can provide band-aids that make life a little more manageable. But you will need to be surrounded by people who care for you and support you in life; whoever that might be. In fact, that is sound advice for anybody, whether healthy or not.
Hope this helps.
< Message edited by cognitivemagic -- 8/27/2008 5:20:45 AM >
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RE: Doubt and Salvation - 8/27/2008 6:25:14 AM
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PhrozenPhoenix
Posts: 249
Joined: 4/18/2005
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Well thanks for the replies. I'm feeling a bit better about this today :) (I know I know feeling has nothing to do with it but oh whatever)...
About the OCD though... I don't know if I have that particular screw up but you probably aren't too far off base anyway. I know I'm totally messed up in that area already >.< Social Anxiety, Avoidant Personality Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (totally different from OCD) etc... Ya I know I should see a doctor to see what's really going down but I don't know, I just thought God would get me through everything (well, I thought it was just me and my way of thinking... didn't know any of it was related to different disorders till recently).
I never linked any of it to this problem though...
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Since you became a Christian have you eaten any food for your body like burgers, pizzas, pie, bread etc.? You know very well that if we don`t eat even for a few days we will become weak, faint and very hungry. So it is with your soul. Before you became a Christian your spirit and soul were dead in transgressions and sin. However since you believed Eph.2:5 tells us your soul became "alive with Christ". Now like your body you need to feed your soul with the Word of God so that you will grow and mature properly. That`s why the Psalmist refers to God`s Word as "sweeter than honey to my month! I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore I hate every wrong path" in Ps.119:103+104. So please why not begin by counteracting your doubts, if possible, by spenting at least 5 min. a day studying your Bible. You will soon realize that the Bible will transform you and give you faith in it`s facts instead of doubt.