|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
End time Question - 10/13/2009 9:07:34 PM
|
|
|
WomanOfVictory
Posts: 16
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
|
Will there be a rapture or is the next coming of Christ His last, which would be judgement?
_____________________________
~God's Child, Tyhera~
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/14/2009 2:03:16 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
|
Shalom, WomanOfVictory.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WomanOfVictory
Will there be a rapture or is the next coming of Christ His last, which would be judgement?
In a word, YES!
There is no doubt that there will be a "rapture" (or "harpazo" in Greek, I Thes. 4:13-18). The REAL question is "WHY is there a rapture?" What purpose does it serve? It does NOT take us believers all to "Heaven." That is NOT its purpose. Besides, Paul is only relating half of the event and the first half at that. The words "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" does NOT tell us WHERE we will be going next or where He will be going next, either! It's merely an assurance that, wherever He will be going, so will we be going as well.
So, the question remains, "Where will He be going next?" Back to "Heaven?" There are absolutely NO verses that declare that or even suggest that. In fact, this first passage in I Thessalonians merely takes Him no farther than the air and among the clouds.
So, by way of an explanation, perhaps we should ask another, clearer question: "WHY will He be returning to earth at all?" Pretribbers and even Prewrathers (aka Midtribbers) would have us believe that there are two reasons for His coming(s) and thus two stages, but there is no clear declaration of that assumption! To the contrary, all passages that speak of His Return say that His Return will be sudden, obvious, and urgent. Even the phrase, "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night," (I Thess. 5:2) speaks to it being unexpected, not secretive. Even when one knows that the thief has been hitting residences in one's own neighborhood, that person often will be in denial that his/her home could also be hit. Even when it happens, that same person will say, "I NEVER thought it would happen to me!" or, "It all seems like a horrible nightmare!" implying incredulity.
Some people will answer that with the verses of John 14:1-3:
John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so; I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV
However, note again that Yeshua` never said that He would take believers to "Heaven"; He merely said "where I am, there ye may be also."
(to be continued)
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/15/2009 4:09:42 PM
|
|
|
eschatologist
Posts: 54
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WomanOfVictory
Will there be a rapture or is the next coming of Christ His last, which would be judgement?
There is a rapture: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lordshall not prevent (go before) them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. (The dead in Christ, meaning all those who have passed away and died before Jesus comes back shall be resurrected, the resurrection)Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (This is the rapture which refers to all those who are still alive being automatically changed from their corruptible old bodies to their new incorruptible spiritual bodies, without having to die first.) So your have the resurrection and the rapture happening at the same time when Jesus comes back.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/15/2009 5:04:15 PM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 516
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WomanOfVictory
Will there be a rapture or is the next coming of Christ His last, which would be judgement?
MY view is that the next time he comes, it will be the absolute end. And those who have died in the Lord with rise up out of their graves and those who are alive and saved will be caught up in the air and taken to be with God.
I don't believe in a thousand year reign and all that sensationalized fantasy stuff! ;)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/15/2009 5:50:24 PM
|
|
|
tsnody2001
Posts: 324
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
|
quote:
MY view is that the next time he comes, it will be the absolute end. And those who have died in the Lord with rise up out of their graves and those who are alive and saved will be caught up in the air and taken to be with God.
I agree with this to a certain extent. But really, none of us have this nailed down. I tend to believe, based on my understanding of the Scriptures, that we will be caught up to meet the LORD in the air at His Coming (not before the dead on Christ are raised), when He returns to the Earth. When the LORD does return, He will be with millions upon millions of saints (and those who were caught up to meet Him), and He will put an end to the reign of Anti-Christ and his false prophet, and will bind Satan in hell for 1000 years. Thus begins the 1000-year reign of Jesus here on earth, and we get to reign with him.
quote:
I don't believe in a thousand year reign and all that sensationalized fantasy stuff!
Uh... will this change your mind?
quote:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit
and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil
and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the
thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw
the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads
or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the
dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed
and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:1-6)
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/15/2009 5:53:10 PM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 516
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
quote:
MY view is that the next time he comes, it will be the absolute end. And those who have died in the Lord with rise up out of their graves and those who are alive and saved will be caught up in the air and taken to be with God.
I agree with this to a certain extent. But really, none of us have this nailed down. I tend to believe, based on my understanding of the Scriptures, that we will be caught up to meet the LORD in the air at His Coming (not before the dead on Christ are raised), when He returns to the Earth. When the LORD does return, He will be with millions upon millions of saints (and those who were caught up to meet Him), and He will put an end to the reign of Anti-Christ and his false prophet, and will bind Satan in hell for 1000 years. Thus begins the 1000-year reign of Jesus here on earth, and we get to reign with him.
quote:
I don't believe in a thousand year reign and all that sensationalized fantasy stuff!
Uh... will this change your mind?
quote:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit
and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil
and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the
thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw
the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads
or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the
dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed
and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:1-6)
Thanks for your reply however I do not believe numbers in apocalyptic literature are meant to be taken literal.......there are too many holes in that type of theology and it does not fit the context in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/15/2009 9:03:53 PM
|
|
|
eschatologist
Posts: 54
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WomanOfVictory
Will there be a rapture or is the next coming of Christ His last, which would be judgement?
This is a continuation of my previous post. I had to leave in a hurry so I wasn't able to finish it. I just wanted to give you a few more scriptures on the rapture. My previous post I quoted IThessolonians 4:15-17.
Next ICorinthians 15:51-52:"Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
When it says, "the last trump" it's talking ABOUT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, which signals the return of Jesus to rescue His children from the evil clutches of the antichrist who will be persecuting them during the great tribulation. And also to resurrect His people of all ages who have already died.
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to His servants the prophets." (Revelations 10:7) Here it's talkng about the seventh angel blowing the seventh trumpet which signals the end of man's rule on earth and the beginning of Jesus' rule which starts by Jesus resurrecting and/or rapturing His saints of all ages, and taking them up to Heaven with Him.
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in Heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." (Revelations 11:15) So this again is just riterating that the last trumpet is when Jesus returns signaling the end of man's evil rule on earth and the beginning of the Lord's rightous rule.
I suppose that what you mean in your question, "will the next return of Christ be the last or the judgment?", you're talking about the battle of Armageddon which is when Christ actually comes back to earth along with all of us resurrected/raptured saints to destroy the antichrist and his military forces in the valley of Megiddo. See, what happens is that after Jesus comes back to take us all to heaven with Him then that's when the wrath of God are poured out upon the wicked. We shall go through the great tribulation but not the wrath of God because we are not appointed to wrath. Revelations chapters 11-13 give a close-up view of the different characters and events of the great tribulation, which we won't get into now because that's a different subject. Revelations 16 gives us a close-up of the wrath of God being poured out upon the wicked who are left here on earth after we are raptured and in Heaven with Jesus. (That also is a different subject) Revelations 19 tells us what happens after we are resurrected/raptured and in Heaven with Jesus, so we'll continue there.
Revelations 19:7-8: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; for the fine linen is the rightousness of saints." So, what we are seeing here is that while the wrath of God is being poured out upon the wicked on earth, we will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb in Heaven. This is where the Lord hands out the rewards to His faithful followers. This is what Paul was referring to when he said, "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." It will also be a celebration of the Lords victory over death, one giant wingding of a wedding whammy in Heaven.
The fine white linen that we will be clothed in heaven represents the fact that we have been washed clean by the blood of the lamb. As it says in Rev 7:14: "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb". All of God's saved children of all ages who have been resurrected/raptured will have these white robes since they represent the fact that Jesus has cleansed us from all of our unrightousnes and He is the only reason why we are in heaven. "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." (Rev 5:9)
Then comes the climactic end of the wrath of God on the wicked; the Battle of Armageddon. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called faithful and true, and in righteousness He dith Judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word Of God." (Revelations 19:11-13) This is of course talking about Jesus. Then in verse 14: and the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." This is all of us saved children of the king, brothers and sisters of Jesus coming down from heaven riding on white horse to defeat the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon.
"And I saw the beast, (the antichrist) and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he decieved them that had recieved the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Rev 19:19-21)
We are all going to have swords slaughtering, or (slaying, if you will) the forces of the antichrist at the battle of Armageddon. The sword proceeding out of Jesus' mouth represents the Sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. It means that this is the rightous judgment of the truth of God's word on the evil antichrist people who hate the truth. As Jesus said, "the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him at the last day."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/15/2009 9:20:58 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
The seventh trumpet is sounded by an angel...the trumpet in 1Th 4:16 and Matt 24:29-31 is sounded by God...there is a difference.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/16/2009 12:57:41 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
|
Shalom, WomanOfVictory.
As I was saying, where will we be going from there?
Despite the fact that the Scriptures say "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven," the word "heaven" there is "ouranos" which simply means the "sky." It does NOT refer to "God's abode," as if there could be such a thing. Thus, the words could be translated, "For the Lord himslef shall descend from the sky," and it would be exactly fitting the thoughts behind the words.
Furthermore, if Paul had meant a place somewhere above the sky, he had a word that he used for such in I Cor. 15: epouranios. This word means "from above the sky." So, why didn't he use a word he had used before if he meant anything other than "sky?" Also, how could you hear a trumpet if not in the sky? Sound requires air to propagate. There is no sound in space (despite Hollywood's science fiction movies). So, it would be kinda hard to hear a trumpet blast in space!
And, using Hebrews 12:19 and the corresponding passage in Exodus 19:16, 19, and 20:18, one can see that the Greek word "salpigx" is the translation for the Hebrew word "showfar or shofar." Both of these words were translated as "trumpet" or "trump."
Now, looking at the various OT prophecies that talk about the shofar, we have several passages:
Ps. 47:5; 81:3 (cff. Isa. 66:22-23); 98:6; 150:3; Isa. 18:3; 27:13; Ezek. 33:3, 4, 5, 6; Hos. 5:8; 8:1; Joel 2:1, 15; Zeph. 1:16, and Zech. 9:14.
Ps 47:1-9
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2 For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
4 He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.
5 God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet.
6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.
9 The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted.
KJV
Ps 81:1-4
1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
4 For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.
KJV
(Isa 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
KJV)
Ps 98:1-9
1 O sing unto the Lord a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
2 The Lord hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
4 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
5 Sing unto the Lord with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the Lord, the King.
7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
9 Before the Lord; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.
KJV
Ps 150:1-6
1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.
KJV
Isa 18:1-4
1 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:
2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!
3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.
4 For so the Lord said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.
KJV
Isa 27:9-13
9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.
10 Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof.
11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will shew them no favour.
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
KJV
Ezek 33:1-9
1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
KJV
Hos 8:1
8 Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the Lord, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law.
KJV
Joel 2:1-18
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
KJV
Zeph 1:14-18
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
KJV
Zech 9:12-17
12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.
KJV
All of these passages talk about the Lord’s Return and God’s Reign on earth (i.e., through His Messiah) and all make mention of the sounding of the shofar.
NONE of them talk about a removal of His people from the earth! ALL of them talk about the shofar being sounded as a warning when the Lord returns!
Three passages more: Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 19:11-21; and it’s companion passages in Isaiah 11:1-4 and Isaiah 63:1-6 (which is actually excerpts from one long passage):
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Rev 19:11-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
KJV
Isa 11:1-4
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
KJV
Isa 63:1-6
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
KJV
The bottom line is that we don’t go off to some ethereal place called “Heaven”; instead, we go THROUGH the “heavens” (the “skies”) to Isra’el with our King who will be in RESCUER-MODE! We will be among the “armies that are with Him in the skies,” (again, “ouranos” in Rev. 19:14) but we won’t be doing any of the fighting! Yeshua` will single-handedly defeat His enemies and they will lie as carrion for the birds and the beasts of the field.
So, that’s what the Rapture is. It’s a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us all quickly to Isra’el for the final battle in which the Messiah will thrash all those who will have been attacking Isra’el, particularly those in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). He will land first in Bozrah, a small town on the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba; He then will proceed through all the towns of Y’hudah, routing the enemy, and finally will arrive in Yerushalayim where He first will set foot on HaHar HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), splitting the mountain in half and forming a valley that will run eastward from the gates of the city to the town called “Aatsal,” He then will enter the Golden Gates (which currently lie buried below the Eastern Gates), will chase them out from all the buildings, will route them out through the Damassek Gate (the Damascus Gate) and northward into the plains of Yizre’el to the Tel Megiddown (Har Megiddown, transliterated into Greek as “Armageddon”) where they will turn and regroup, thinking they can take a stand against their Pursuer there. The rest is a literal blood bath. At the end, the birds and the wild animals will be the mop-up crew.
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/16/2009 2:53:49 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, that’s what the Rapture is. It’s a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us all quickly to Isra’el for the final battle in which the Messiah will thrash all those who will have been attacking Isra’el, particularly those in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). He will land first in Bozrah, a small town on the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba; He then will proceed through all the towns of Y’hudah, routing the enemy, and finally will arrive in Yerushalayim where He first will set foot on HaHar HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), splitting the mountain in half and forming a valley that will run eastward from the gates of the city to the town called “Aatsal,” He then will enter the Golden Gates (which currently lie buried below the Eastern Gates), will chase them out from all the buildings, will route them out through the Damassek Gate (the Damascus Gate) and northward into the plains of Yizre’el to the Tel Megiddown (Har Megiddown, transliterated into Greek as “Armageddon”) where they will turn and regroup, thinking they can take a stand against their Pursuer there. The rest is a literal blood bath. At the end, the birds and the wild animals will be the mop-up crew.
Roy you could well be correct here but only if we make the Day of the Lord a single day or a very short period. How do we reconcile the 5th trumpet judgment which it states will only "torture them for five months"? Unless you don't consider the trumpets to be a part of he Day of the Lord. I do because they occur after the Seventh Seal and the sign of the great day of His wrath which has come.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/16/2009 6:07:14 PM
|
|
|
tsnody2001
Posts: 324
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
|
quote:
There is no sound in space (despite Hollywood's science fiction movies).
Could you give a source for this please? Just curious.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/16/2009 6:42:50 PM
|
|
|
Intrepidus
Posts: 104
Joined: 10/7/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WomanOfVictory
Will there be a rapture or is the next coming of Christ His last, which would be judgement?
WomanOfVictory,
I'd like to reinforce something that Retrobyter posted regarding the rapture. After stating that there is definitely a rapture of believers, he asks, "Where will [Christ] be going next?" The answer is that we will return with Christ to the earth. Why do I say this? Because of a technical term that Paul uses in 1 Thesalonians 4:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes 4:16-17)
In discussions on the rapture, much attention is devoted to the phrase "caught up" (Gk. harpazo). Not much is paid, however, the the phrase highlighted above. Yet the phrase "to meet" is key in answering the question, "Where will Christ be going next?"
The phrase translated "to meet" is not a verb at all in the Greek (eis apanteisin). It's a noun, and it refers to a special kind of meeting. The word only occurs three times in the New Testament. The first instance is found in the Parable of the Ten Virgins.
"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'" (Matt 25:1-6)
Here, the virgins were to come out and greet the bridegroom, then escort him back in a lit procession to the marriage feast--a custom in Jewish weddings at the time of Christ.
The second instance of the phrase eis apantesin is found in Acts, when Paul is en route to Rome. Luke records:
"And so we came to Rome. The brothers there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to meet us. At the sight of these men Paul thanked God and was encouraged. When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him. (Acts 28:14b-16)
As Paul journeyed to Rome, a delegation of brothers came out to meet Paul and his companions, at which point they escorted them back to Rome. Paul was impressed by the distance that the Roman 'welcoming party' traveled just to provide that escort.
You may have noticed a recurring theme in these passages. Those who participate in "the meeting" do not return with the traveler to where he came from. Rather, the traveler is escorted back to where the others came from. This is the technical meaning of apantesis. Traveling dignitaries would often be sent a welcoming party to greet them and provide safe travel on the last leg of their journey. The more important the dignitary, the farther the folks would venture out to greet him. Likewise, the virgins would go out to meet the bridegroom, then escort him back to the wedding banquet.
By now, you can probably see the obvious implication in 1 Thesalonians 4. If believers on the earth are raptured "to meet" (eis apantesis) the Lord in the air, it stands to reason that they will escort the Lord back to the earth. Since the Lord is the most important dignitary imaginable, the returning King of Kings, believers will go all the way to the clouds to meet him (though obviously not in their own power).
To sum, there is a rapture. Believers, both living and resurrected, will go to meet the Lord in the air at his appearance in the clouds. They will then escort him back to earth, at which time he will consummate his kingdom, judge the ungodly, and restore all things. This, I believe, is the biblical explanation of the rapture.
In Christ,
-Intrepidus
< Message edited by Intrepidus -- 10/16/2009 6:48:58 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/16/2009 10:49:34 PM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 10990
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
quote:
There is no sound in space (despite Hollywood's science fiction movies).
Could you give a source for this please? Just curious.
I'll take a crack at it.
Sound travels in waves - moving some medium: air, water, solids. If there are no particles to move, there can be no wave, no sound wave. Since space is devoid of a medium (it's a vacuum), sound waves cannot travel. Therefore, there is no sound in space. This has been replicated in experiments, by things like ringing a bell in a vacuum.
_____________________________
LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/16/2009 11:48:29 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 5783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
quote:
There is no sound in space (despite Hollywood's science fiction movies).
Could you give a source for this please? Just curious.
I'll take a crack at it.
Sound travels in waves - moving some medium: air, water, solids. If there are no particles to move, there can be no wave, no sound wave. Since space is devoid of a medium (it's a vacuum), sound waves cannot travel. Therefore, there is no sound in space. This has been replicated in experiments, by things like ringing a bell in a vacuum.
Is toooooooooo.
I saw it on Star Trek....................LOL
j/k.
I agree.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/17/2009 3:19:42 PM
|
|
|
tsnody2001
Posts: 324
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
|
Thank you , ta_mosquito, for your answer. I didn't know, so I was asking an honest question. I have another one. What would we consider light? Is it a wave or beam, or what? Can light be seen in space, other than when it reflects off something?
I know, I know. Too many questions. Just curious. Thanks to whoever attempts answering.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/17/2009 7:17:14 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
I think if you dig enough you will find there is sound in outer space but the human ear cannot hear it. Space is not a complete vacuum. Atoms of gas do give the universe an atmosphere of sorts but it is extremely thin. Sound is carried through space but it would take something special to hear it.
It is true that sound cannot propagate in a vacuum however. 
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/17/2009 7:53:05 PM
|
|
|
tsnody2001
Posts: 324
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
|
Job 38:7 says the morning stars sang together.
quote:
The sound of space: Scientists reveal 'music' made by stars
By Claire Bates
Last updated at 4:25 PM on 25th October 2008
* Comments (0)
* Add to My Stories
It was said that in space noone can hear you scream, but scientists have managed to record and listen to the sound of three stars similar to our Sun.
Outerspace is not a total vacuum but is extremely diffuse with only around one particle per cubic centimetre. Noise can therefore travel from distant galaxies but would be inaudible to our ears without extra help.
A team used light curves collected over 60 days from France's Corot space telescope to pick up the celestial sound, which has given them vital information about processes deep within the cosmic bodies.
Writing in the journal Science, they discovered each star's sound had a regular repeating pattern, which indicated the entire entity is pulsating.
The technique, called 'stellar seismology', helps to build an audio 'picture' of their surface texture and vibrations. LINK
That is interesting. The heavens truly do declare the glory of God!
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/20/2009 3:03:13 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
|
Shalom, tsnody2001.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
quote:
There is no sound in space (despite Hollywood's science fiction movies).
Could you give a source for this please? Just curious.
Sure. Here's one such source. One of my favorite places to visit, HowStuffWorks.com. Check out this page:
How Stuff Works about Sound waves
Enjoy!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: End time Question - 10/20/2009 3:46:02 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
|
Shalom, Intrepidus.
Yes, thank you! That's precisely what I see, too. That's why my Avatar is drawn the way it is. Movement is from the left of the picture to the right. He shall send forth his messengers to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth, to meet the Lord in the air, and escort Him to Isra'el for (1) the Battle at Bozrah where He first soaks His garments in blood (Isa. 63:1-6), (2) the Rescue of His people, Isra'el, in Y'hudah (Zech. 12:1-9), (3) the splitting of Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) to provide an escape route from Yerushalayim and to open the eastern gate or the Golden Gate (Zech. 14:3-5; Ezek. 43:1-7), which is currently buried under the wall of the Old City, (4) the routing of the Enemy through the northern gate the Damassek (or Damascus) Gate (5), the Battle of Har-Megiddown (Rev. 16:16-19:21), (6) His Tribunal of those whom He has captured and taken prisoner, and (7) the beginning of His Kingdom on earth.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
But that's a whole nuther discussion!
