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Engaged couple living together - 10/6/2009 3:14:04 PM
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allisonbrett
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From: A bit north of the Big Chicken
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Senario: you have a young (20-somethings) engaged to be married yet are and living together. They aren't advertising their living situation but others are beginning to put two and two together. This couple are members and active in Sunday school class. They are planning a big church wedding for next summer. They have not asked the pastor to marry them but are having an ordained family member perform the ceremony.
BTW: this is my step-daughter, 20 and fiance', 25 who know this is wrong but they've seen her mother and siblings live with people outside of marriage and feel it's not that bad.
As ministers, teachers, etc. do you say anything and what?
I don't know anyone who has said anything to them. My husband and I have made our views and convictions known but.... they have their own minds.
< Message edited by allisonbrett -- 10/6/2009 3:22:36 PM >
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Allison
A work in progress so please be patient, God is still working on me. Ouch, it sure is painful!
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/6/2009 3:50:28 PM
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GregandJenny
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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AB,
Can you provide other arrangements.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/6/2009 9:46:28 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1764
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From: Canada
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If I was in direct leadership regarding this couple, I would be visiting them for a serious talk. The talk would include the Scriptural command to flee from temptation, and a frank question as to whether or not they found the idea of fornicating with one another tempting.
I would then give them some time to think, plenty of prayer support and practical help regarding housing, or moving up the marriage, and regarding next summer's event as a 'celebration of vows' (that had already been made)... or any other workable solution.
In a few weeks, another talk would give me the information I needed to know whether they had every intention of continuing to sin, or if they were genuinely wrestling with the concepts.
More support if they were still wrestling... If they were determined to go on as they are, then the first stages of disfellowshipping would be in order. This would be made clear as a temporary measure, until they were again in right relationship with one another, and under obedience to God -- as expressed in Scripture.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/7/2009 1:30:48 AM
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Lea_3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
If I was in direct leadership regarding this couple, I would be visiting them for a serious talk. The talk would include the Scriptural command to flee from temptation, and a frank question as to whether or not they found the idea of fornicating with one another tempting.
I would then give them some time to think, plenty of prayer support and practical help regarding housing, or moving up the marriage, and regarding next summer's event as a 'celebration of vows' (that had already been made)... or any other workable solution.
In a few weeks, another talk would give me the information I needed to know whether they had every intention of continuing to sin, or if they were genuinely wrestling with the concepts.
More support if they were still wrestling... If they were determined to go on as they are, then the first stages of disfellowshipping would be in order. This would be made clear as a temporary measure, until they were again in right relationship with one another, and under obedience to God -- as expressed in Scripture.
I completely agree with this. It's important to communicate why this lifestyle is inappropriate and have a talk with them. I've seen the "don't do that" line and it doesn't go through because of course, people are going to do what you tell them not to...I also think disfellowshipping is an appropriate step to take because Scripture expresses what an appropriate relationship is. Cohabiting outside of marriage is not. "Leaving them be", IMO, is not. BUT make sure they actually are living together before marriage-- they could just be hanging out alot.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/7/2009 1:09:21 PM
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allisonbrett
Posts: 837
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From: A bit north of the Big Chicken
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We know for a fact that they are living together. She has commented about waking up in the middle of the night hearing noises and getting dressed to go outside with him. She also mentioned going on BC pills and is planning on buying the house they currently live in with his parents. They both know how and why we feel the way we do and I think they respect our ideals but it doesn't seem to bother them enough to change it all.
GregandJenny, no we can't at the moment. We don't have an empty bedroom available as its an office. We'd also not allow him to spend the night and considering they've been living this way close to a year and are not evidently convicted to do something different. She claims that she moved in since she was there more than any place else and her mother spends most evenings out. She also doesn't get along with her mother especially when she is drinking a lot.
Some months back she had a medical issue that she needed to be seen for but couldn't get on his insurance until they married. She couldn't afford a doctor bill and she didn't qualify for medicare since she wasn't pregnant or a mother. We did suggest that instead of living together that they go ahead and get married and if they still insisted on a "wedding" next year that they continue with that since they are paying for it themselves. We can't afford to help them right now.
I think for church leadership to simply just pray for them and not call them into accountability seems less than Christ-like. Jesus always confronted sin in a loving way.
To kick them out of church (disfellowship) seems rather harsh but understandable. I'm afraid that they would reject church completely and all that it stands for. My MIL was "kicked" out of church back in the mid 70's when she and my late FIL divorced and she remarried. She was so hurt and even though she and my late FIL reconiciled 2 years before his death she never forgot how she was treated in the church. She's never been back.
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A work in progress so please be patient, God is still working on me. Ouch, it sure is painful!
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/7/2009 1:34:14 PM
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bolt.
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From: Canada
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You can rest assured that, if I were their leader the process of disfellowshipping would be as careful, compassionate, patient and supportive as possible... probably lasting for months before any 'kicking out' might, unfortunately, have to occur.
It would also include some exploration of whether they really do consider themselves Christians, or if this is an unsure (seeking) season in their lives. A seeker is only coming to Church to see if they might commit to Christ, so they are not expected to be living a Biblical lifestyle. As such, they may be welcome to continue attending,and seeking, rather than being disfellowshiped. Disfellowshiping is only for those who are in genuine rebellion against their comittment to the Lordship of Jesus -- those who have not made that comittment, or who have actually rejected it (but seem to be considering taking it up again) are treated differently.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/7/2009 2:23:45 PM
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sharonjef2007
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So, they are living together in his parent's house? Are his parent's members of the church as well?
How long have they been living together? If it has been longer than a month or so, why is it only becoming an issue now?
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/7/2009 9:25:35 PM
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Lea_3
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See this is the problem that Christianity has succumbed to. That people believe that a "wedding" is necessary instead of marriage. They should just get married-- the Bible says it is better to marry than burn with passion. They obviously seem to be making it able to live together and can afford it, why can't they just get married? They could call up the church today and ask for a ceremony this weekend (or even next) and be done with it! It's not the wedding that determines a marriage...it is respecting marriage as a covenant.
What they are doing is wrecking their future as a married couple. Need I post all the statistical evidence to show how much more couples who cohabited before marriage end up getting divorced compared to their non-cohabited counterparts?
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/7/2009 9:49:10 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello allisonbrett
I consider the marriage ceremony to be a public confession of what the Lord has done. Every couple should be anxious perform it. In addition their repeated of their vows makes them accountable to all that hear them.
If a couple wants to live that way, it's fine. But it would, in my mind, prevent them from being involved in ministry. If they don't like it, that's their problem. The church does have a right to uphold the standards that it believes.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/8/2009 11:30:18 AM
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allisonbrett
Posts: 837
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From: A bit north of the Big Chicken
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
So, they are living together in his parent's house? Are his parent's members of the church as well?
How long have they been living together? If it has been longer than a month or so, why is it only becoming an issue now?
Yes, they are living togther in the same house as his parents. No, his parents are not members of the church. They used to attend church but do not attend anywhere now. They've been living this way for nearly a year and no, it's not only becoming an issue now, its just on this forum now. Frankly, we didn't know for sure of the permanent living situation until fairly recently although we suspected. They have always known our feelings on the subject so they have attempted to hide it from our side of the family. Her mother is fine with it as she has lived with various men in the past. Quite a few years ago her mother also allowed her older daughter and then bf to live together for a couple years before she got pregnant, then they got married. My husband protested loudly then as well.
My husband talked to the fiance' many months ago when we began to suspect but he would never admit or deny the situation. He felt like they were going to do what they wanted to do regardless of how we felt.
We've made our feelings known but am wondering of the church's message to them as active members. If they ignore the situation then it seems like approval or acceptance. That is my concern.
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Allison
A work in progress so please be patient, God is still working on me. Ouch, it sure is painful!
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/9/2009 11:01:21 AM
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solarflare
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They are laying a terrible foundation for their marriage and should not be active in church if they are living together.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/9/2009 3:44:24 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
They have always known our feelings on the subject so they have attempted to hide it from our side of the family.
So, they do understand what they are doing is wrong then.
quote:
We've made our feelings known but am wondering of the church's message to them as active members. If they ignore the situation then it seems like approval or acceptance. That is my concern.
I agree on what will happen if they ignore the situation. I know you as family are aware of the truth of the situation, but is the church aware? It also depends on what kind of church they are going to. There are denoms out there that will hold an ordained pastor to this kind of standard, but not church members.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/9/2009 4:00:39 PM
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bolt.
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There is a difference between being aware that people disapprove of what you are doing, and knowing it is wrong.
If I knew that my in laws believed that wearing blue jeans was wrong, I might attempt to hide it from them... but it's not like I would be admitting knowledge of the sinfulness of such fashion choices, just because I attempted to keep it under my hat instead of letting it hit the fan.
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Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/9/2009 4:42:07 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
There is a difference between being aware that people disapprove of what you are doing, and knowing it is wrong.
If I knew that my in laws believed that wearing blue jeans was wrong, I might attempt to hide it from them... but it's not like I would be admitting knowledge of the sinfulness of such fashion choices, just because I attempted to keep it under my hat instead of letting it hit the fan.
That is a good point......
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/9/2009 4:49:55 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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If they are living with parents is it only a suspicion that they are sleeping together also?
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/12/2009 5:49:11 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
If they are living with parents is it only a suspicion that they are sleeping together also?
No, because she has talked about getting her birth control pills. Besides, my husband talked to him about them not living together and sleeping together but.. he wouldn't say either way. If they were not sexually active I'm sure he would have said so. At least he doesn't feel comfortable about lying about it all.
Women often go on the birth control pill for an extended time before they plan on becoming sexually active. The pill offers benefits to some women for cycle related issues.
It could be the couple did not answer the questions directly because they don't want to discuss it with the two of you. You have some compelling reasons to suspect that they are active, but you don't really know. They are ultimately accountable to God. You don't see sin you only suspect it. That makes for shakey ground to confront on.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/12/2009 6:35:07 PM
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Lea_3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
If they are living with parents is it only a suspicion that they are sleeping together also?
No, because she has talked about getting her birth control pills. Besides, my husband talked to him about them not living together and sleeping together but.. he wouldn't say either way. If they were not sexually active I'm sure he would have said so. At least he doesn't feel comfortable about lying about it all.
Women often go on the birth control pill for an extended time before they plan on becoming sexually active. The pill offers benefits to some women for cycle related issues.
It could be the couple did not answer the questions directly because they don't want to discuss it with the two of you. You have some compelling reasons to suspect that they are active, but you don't really know. They are ultimately accountable to God. You don't see sin you only suspect it. That makes for shakey ground to confront on.
I'm going to back up allison here because for one, I know that it does NOT take a YEAR for your body to acclimate to the birth control pill! I know alot of people who took the pill before marriage and they only needed to take it for 2-3 months before-- not a year! Just the fact that she is already using the pill a year in advance is spelling something outloud.
This niece already let it slip that she wakes up around her fiance-- how much more obvious can you get?
And seriously, don't give me that "accountable to God" line. Yes everyone is accountable to God, but what about honoring your mother and father? What about "better to marry than burn with passion"?
Allison honey...I think it's time to clear out that office and get a bed and a chest of drawers in there.
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/12/2009 7:02:34 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
As ministers, teachers, etc. do you say anything and what?
From the OP, and subsequent post by the OP the couple in question are living together in sin, are members, and active in Chruch.
The Church leadership should not let this situation stand or else the leadership will be rimiss in their duties as laid out in Scripture.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Engaged couple living together - 10/12/2009 9:24:51 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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So step mom should go to pastor and say, we think our child is engaging in premarital sex please confront them?
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