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Eternal soul - 5/28/2008 1:36:28 PM
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JordanB
Posts: 27
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I was on a forum where an individual was arguing that the soul does not exist in eternity just we live. I am confused as I was under the impression it was our soul which survived. Is there a difference between the soul and spirit?
Here was my response. Was I mistaken?
A look at the root words for spirit and soul (pneuma and ruach for spirit/ nephesh and psuche for soul) indicates both have several definitions in common and the reader needs to determine which is implied. However, Part of the Human that lives on after death can be found here for spirit:
Psalm 31:5, Luke 8:55, Luke 23:46, Acts 7:59.
For soul:
Genesis 35:18, Matthew 10:28, Hebrew 10:39, James 1:21, James 5:20.
The words are synonyms for each other when used to describe this concept. The doctrine of the immortal soul/spirit is referenced too frequently within the Bible to call it a man-made doctrine. It, IMO, has a strong Biblical foundation
< Message edited by JordanB -- 5/28/2008 8:19:12 PM >
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RE: Eternal soul - 5/29/2008 12:04:48 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1791
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From: Kansas
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There seem to be two different words to explain the life force of the human. These are Psuchee and Zoee.
The Psuchee alludes to the natural, fleshly or blood life, this life leaves the body with the blood.
The Zoee refers to the spiritual life, either in this age or after the resurrection. It sometimes seems to be an independent life force, different then psuchee which is dependant on breath.
Christ did not give up His zoee for mankind, He gave up His psuchee.
quote:
The original Greek settles the question of the kind of life, clearly and unmistakably. While it is continually taught that in Christ we have zoee, even zoee everlasting, it nowhere says that he laid down his zoee for us. On the contrary it plainly and invariably states that the life he gave was the psuchee [natural, or blood life.] Scripture tells us; "The son of man came not to be ministered to, but to minister, and to give his life (psuchee) a ransom for many." Matt. 20:28, Mark 10:45. "The good Shepherd lays down his psuchee for the sheep." John 10:11. This declaration is stronger when we notice that in the verse previousChrist says, "I came that they may have zoee," &c. Following, he reiterates "I lay down my psuchee for the sheep....For this my Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may receive (a) it again, no one forces (b) it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority (c) to lay it down, and I have authority to receive it again. This commandment I received from my Father." Although Christ here speaks of receiving it again, it does not of necessity mean that when he rose from the dead he took again the blood life. Simply, he had authority, or an arrangement with the Father to live again. The nature of his resurrection life we learn from other scriptures. The passage in this respect is similar to John 12:25. "He that hates his psuchee in this world, shall keep it unto zoee eternal: when mortality shall be swallowed up by zoee. (author unknown.)
To me the zoee is the immortal soul and come equipped with intelligence and memories of this life in some fashion.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Eternal soul - 5/29/2008 12:42:22 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1232
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From: Lebanon, OR
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2 Corinthians 4:16-"So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away(physical; are 'saved' at redemption in obedience to His Blood/scarifice), our inner nature(soul/imagination/personality; are being 'saved' by our obedience/vulnerability to His obedience)is being renewed every day(and (finally 'saved'(secured)when He comes in His Glory). 17 For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18 because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."
_____________________________
"I will behold Thy face for I shall be satisfied when I awake to Thy likeness."
(Psalm 17:15)
"To see God and to be like Him; what more can I desire? I believe it and I expect it."
(CH Spurgeon)
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RE: Eternal soul - 5/30/2008 8:39:06 PM
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Godhead
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Well somehow our personality, our consciousness and all that makes us who we are is going to be preserved for our heavenly body. I have always believed that I have an eternal spirit. Well God breathed into the first man, the breath of life, and the body without the spirit is dead. but there is also being asleep when we die. So we either do have an eternal spirit that exist apart from the body, or it is just our conscious state. Whatever, I don't care really. The Son of God is the only Doctrine that saves. It doesn't matter whether you believe in an eternal spirit or not, but whether you believe in the Son of God or not. But it is an interesting subject of discussion.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Eternal soul - 5/30/2008 9:41:42 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1791
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From: Kansas
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I agree Godhead, if we did not retain our memories of this life in our glorified state why would God desire us to experience the lesions of this existence and grow in the image of Christ?
It seems to me that the whole game plan is to grow in holiness and remember how it was accomplished.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Eternal soul - 5/31/2008 3:29:22 AM
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Rev_22_4
Posts: 18
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JordanB
Is there a difference between the soul and spirit?
Yes there is a difference. I noticed your post says that pneuma is the root word for spirit. I didn't even know that. That's good to know. Thank you for that bit of information. Where did you get it by the way? The root word pneuma means air. Our spirit is the breath of life.
quote:
Genesis 2
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Job 27
3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Notice Genesis 2 says that God formed man of the dust of the ground. After God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils then, man became a living soul. When we die, it is just the opposite.
quote:
Genesis 3
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 12
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It appears that the equation is : body + breath of life = a living soul. When we die, our spirit/breath of life goes back to God, our body goes back to the earth and our soul ceases to exist.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JordanB
Here was my response. Was I mistaken?
I do not like to tell people that they are mistaken since I don't believe anyone should believe me. We should only be believing the Bible. However, I will offer my logic on your post. Again, don't believe me. Only believe the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JordanB
Psalm 31:5, Luke 8:55, Luke 23:46, Acts 7:59.
These verses refer to the spirit which is just air or the breath of life and are in complete alignment with Ecclesiastes 12:7.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JordanB
Genesis 35:18, Matthew 10:28, Hebrew 10:39, James 1:21, James 5:20.
These verses refer to the soul which is not just the spirit but the spirit and the body together. Genesis 35:18 has the appearance that it supports the doctrine of the immortality of the soul but, when you put it next to the rest of your Bible references, it seems to contradict.
quote:
Genesis 35
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben–oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Hebrews 10
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
James 1
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 5
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Matthew 10:28 – How can God destroy an immortal soul? It's just not possible. It makes no sense. I believe we call these kind of sentences “oxymorons”. I don't believe that Jesus was contradicting Himself. If God is able to destroy the soul then, this implies that the soul is mortal.
Hebrews 10:39 – Notice this verse refers to saving the soul. If the soul is immortal, it does not need to be saved. If the soul needs to be saved, it is mortal.
James 1:21 – Again, if the soul needs to be saved, it is mortal.
James 5:20 – This verse makes it much more clear. If the soul can die, it is mortal.
These verses are right in line with Ezekiel 18:4, 20.
quote:
Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Again, if a soul can die, it is mortal. Perhaps Genesis 35:18 meant as her soul was dying. If she was already dead, she would not have been able to call his name.
It appears to me that spirit and soul are not synonyms. It also appears to me that when the Bible refers to man having immortality, it is only the righteous who receive at Jesus second coming.
quote:
1 Corinthians 15
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Verse after verse, the Bible refers to the soul as being mortal. As far as the soul not existing in eternity, if we have a body and the breath of life, we would be living souls.
_____________________________
And they shall see his face....Revelation 22:4
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/2/2008 11:15:07 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1791
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Godhead...what inhabits the body? Is it not intelligences and a life force? Without intelligences the body has no function and without the life force intelligences must cease to exist or go elsewhere.
I think that just as the Bible teaches, the Spirit (life force) when breathed into the body results in a soul. The body when energized by the Spirit possesses some innate intelligence contained in the hind brain which allows the beginning of life. Then individual intelligences develops as life continues and when the Psuchee (natural body) dies the Zoee (immortal soul) which includes life intelligences moves on.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/3/2008 12:12:27 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Well somehow our personality, our consciousness and all that makes us who we are is going to be preserved for our heavenly body. I have always believed that I have an eternal spirit. Well God breathed into the first man, the breath of life, and the body without the spirit is dead. but there is also being asleep when we die. So we either do have an eternal spirit that exist apart from the body, or it is just our conscious state. Whatever, I don't care really. The Son of God is the only Doctrine that saves. It doesn't matter whether you believe in an eternal spirit or not, but whether you believe in the Son of God or not. But it is an interesting subject of discussion.
Godhead, I think you are taking the safe route, not having an answer to this. I found out that Martin Luther himself did believe in soul sleep, because the Catholic Church was teaching the doctrine of the immortal soul, and they were using that to justify the worship of the Saints. So, I think Martin Luther had a point to say that we are not immortal beings, only God is immortal.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/5/2008 9:27:10 PM
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Godhead
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For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(2Co 5:1)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Th 5:23)
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(1Co 15:54)
and what is that other one, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord.."
I gather from these three verses that our spirit and soul will be transferred into a new body. So it is our body that will be changed. which is just a vessel that houses our soul and spirit. Can our spirit and soul exist without the body? I do not see why not since God is a spirit, who intern must have a soul. God is not just some ectoplasm, or whatever ghost are suppose to be made of. He has feelings and thoughts and can do things. So maybe when we die, our spirit is kept in a sleeping state until the return of Christ, or that spirit is with Christ after we die awaiting a knew body. Either way, I think there is a good chance that we have an eternal soul and spirit. Remember it is our bodies that will change nothing else. How awesome is this, we will still be ourselves, just living in bodies that will be a billion times better then the ones that we have now. I wouldn’t want to be dead for quid’s, as they say. Well I would want to be but not without Christ.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/7/2008 12:22:34 PM
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first_up
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That man "has" a soul as compared to man "being" a soul is more often understood to be true, when in fact, man "IS" a soul.
Genesis 2:7 gives us the formula for what a soul is and the rest of the harmony of scripture supports it:
DUST + BREATH OF LIFE FROM GOD = SOUL / CREATURE / MAN / ANIMAL
DUST - BREATH OF LIFE FROM GOD = DUST
So, simply put, you and I do not "have" a soul, we ARE souls.
Most are very confused about what happens at death from the preconceived, and very popular, idea that man "has" a separate aspect termed "soul" or "spirit" that is inherently eternal. However, this is not what the Bible teaches. What the Bible DOES teach is that at death "souls" cease to live, just as Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 aptly points out:
"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they ALL HAVE ONE BREATH; so that A MAN HAS NO PREEMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST; for all is vanity. ALL GO TO ONE PLACE; all are of the dust, and ALL TURN TO DUST AGAIN."
So, when a creature dies, whether it be man or beast, it returns to dust. The breath of life (ruach) from God returns to God. It is God's breath of life that animates a physcial body. When it goes out or leaves that physical body, the person or animal ceases to live anywhere at all. This is what the significance of the respective resurrections are. God will raise back to life first those at the coming of Christ who are His, then those after the thousand year rule of Christ is finished:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." I Cor. 15:22-23
(THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION:)"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the REST OF THE DEAD lived NOT again UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED." Rev. 20:4-5
So, John reveals that there will be TWO resurrections at TWO different times for TWO different groups of people. A person is DUST in the ground UNTIL his respective resurrection back to life and judgment.
Daniel sums up the two resurrections in one sentence: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2
As a side note, we must keep in mind that the Bible does not teach "soul sleep" per se. It does, however, refer to the first death as "sleep" because all await a resurrection back to life. In this sense, even Jesus used this term to describe the state of death of Lazarus in John 11:11.
The "second death" is never referred to as "sleep" because it is very final and permanent. The second death in the lake of fire is total cessation of being. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will be permanently extinguished from ever living again. This is the consequence warned about all throughout scripture:
"For the wages of sin is DEATH (permanent death from being cast into the lake of fire), but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not PERISH (DIE the second permanent death), but have everlasting life." John 3:16
So, we can see that SCRIPTURE teaches that the options are DEATH OR EVERLASTING LIFE. The doctrine of men teaches that the options are everlasting life in "hell" or everlasting life in "heaven" because they are forced by the false doctrine that all people are inherently immortal. But the Bible teaches that GOD GIVES immortality to those who QUALIFY for it by believing on His Son and by living according to His directives.
Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die (temporary death until his respective resurrection) THEN the judgment. Believers are being judged now. The unbelieving will be judged when they are raised to life after the thousand years of Christ's rule is finished.
So, is anyone in heaven right now? NO. All the dead are dust:
"NO MAN HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN" but Jesus Christ. John 3:13
"David HAS NOT ASCENDED TO HEAVEN..." Acts 2:34
No one will live again until the FIRST RESURRECTION at the return of Christ which is aptly described in Rev. 11:11:
"And after three days and a half the SPIRIT OF LIFE FROM GOD entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."
So, a person does not have a "separate aspect" that holds any life whatever ... it is God's BREATH OF LIFE that REANIMATES the DEAD.
So, is anyone in a place called "hell" right now? NO. The resurrection of the "rest of the dead" is not for another thousand or years or so. Everlasting LIFE IN HELL is an absolutely erroneous, egregious, damnable heresy. Scripture teaches NO SUCH THING! The consequence of rejecting God's truth is PERMANENT death, the EFFECTS of which LAST FOREVER. The Bible doesn't teach ongoing daily burning torture into the eons as a consequence!
"For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven: and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be STUBBLE; and the day that cometh shall BURN THEM UP, saith the LORD of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear My Name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and gorw up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked: for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet in the day that I sahll do this, siath the LORD of Hosts." Malachi 1:1-3
Everlasting life is a GIFT to those who believe on Jesus Christ. Death is the final consequence for those who do not:
"He that hath the Son hath life (immortality/eternal life). and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life (will DIE the second death)." I John 5:12
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire ... the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the SECOND DEATH." Rev. 20:15, 21:8
So, man does not "have" a soul. He "is" a soul. Man is NOT inherently "immortal" but rather prone to die permanently unless GIVEN eternal life by God. The DEAD are DEAD ... DUST ... until the respective resurrections.
< Message edited by first_up -- 6/7/2008 12:36:22 PM >
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/7/2008 8:23:14 PM
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Rev_22_4
Posts: 18
Joined: 4/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Then individual intelligences develops as life continues and when the Psuchee (natural body) dies the Zoee (immortal soul) which includes life intelligences moves on.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
I think there is a good chance that we have an eternal soul and spirit.
This is just amazing to me! I have offered an array of biblical references to help understand the soul, many of which, the Bible is actually referring to the soul as being mortal. The amazing part is, even after people can clearly see the Bible referring to the soul as being mortal, they still want to insist that the soul is immortal.
Ezekiel 18:4,20 are plain as day. These two verses are referring to the soul as being mortal. There are no implications to read into at all.
By their implications, Matthew 10:28, Hebrews 10:39, James 1:21 and 5:20 are all referring to the soul as being mortal.
If the soul is immortal then, these verses are all just a bunch of nonsense. An immortal soul cannot die. An immortal soul cannot be destroyed. An immortal soul cannot be saved from death because it cannot die. I mean really, how do you make sense of these verses if the soul is immortal?
_____________________________
And they shall see his face....Revelation 22:4
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/8/2008 10:17:23 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1791
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Rev…you say the soul is mortal and dies, can you please explain the rich man in Luke16:22 and the occurrence when Saul had the soul of Samuel called back. If these souls were dust how did they exist? There are other events in the Bible where the souls were called back into the body and maybe you can explain these also.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/9/2008 1:22:33 AM
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Rev_22_4
Posts: 18
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Rev…you say the soul is mortal and dies
You are absolutely right! I do say that. One thing I would like you to notice though is, I am only repeating what the Bible teaches. Ezekiel 18:4 says, "....the soul that sinneth, it shall die." I have also given more references where the Bible refers to the soul as being mortal yet, you still need convincing. Am I missing something here? I mean really, do these verses not count or what? What causes a person to read these verses and still believe that the soul is immortal? It just makes no sense to me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
can you please explain the rich man in Luke16:22 and the occurrence when Saul had the soul of Samuel called back. If these souls were dust how did they exist?
I will go ahead and attempt to explain these to you but, before I do, I would like to ask you a question. Why is it that you make such a request without attempting to fulfill my request to explain those verses that I asked about? The Bible says, "....the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Very straight forward, the Bible says that the soul is mortal. The Bible never says that the soul is immortal or that the soul never dies. In the light of this information, the burden of proof isn't on me to prove that the soul is mortal. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the soul is immortal.
The witch at Endor:
quote:
Deuteronomy 18
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Why doesn't God want us to have these consulters of familiar spirits or necromancers around us? The thinking here is, because He knows that people cannot talk to the dead. So who are they talking to? The thinking here is, it is either Satan or one of his angels.
quote:
Revelation 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles
If it is possible in the end times, I believe it was possible in Saul's time as well.
The rich man and Lazarus:
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable and is not a true story.
Here are some more scriptures about the state of the dead:
quote:
Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Job 7
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Psalm 6
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 115
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 146
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Isaiah 38
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
_____________________________
And they shall see his face....Revelation 22:4
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/10/2008 6:48:26 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 351
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I cannot remember the verse but does it not say that they will be cast out into everlasting darkness? Does it not also talk of a bottomless pit in revelation that was prepared for the Devil and his angels? If we have no immortal soul that exist apart from the body, then why does Paul talk of this body as being a tent, and not the person themselves? In John 10:36 Jesus speaks of how he was sent down to us by the father, so it speaks clearly that the body does contain an everlasting spirit. Jesus had one and no one can deny this. I think that they who cannot accept the existence of the spirit just cannot understand the concept. Just because you cannot see it then how can it exist? God is a spirit. Man has a spirit. What was Moses and Elijah doing, when Jesus was transfigured on the mount? Was it just an hallucination. Paul speaks of a man who entered heaven, either in spirit or body form. John was in the spirit when he saw the revelations of Jesus Christ. Just because a person cannot understand the existence of a spirit that does not mean it cannot exist. There are dangers in claiming that there is no eternal punishment, for that means what has the lost got to lose? They believe in no life after death anyway. No hell then no real reason to repent. The second death will be to remain dead as was the state of Adam after he sinned. It will never be to know life eternal and the wonderful joy of being in the presence of the Lord. As there is no more suffering in heaven, in hell there will always be just that. It is a mistake to deny the existence of hell. No eternal soul, means that I have nothing to loose. Jesus had an eternal soul, while in the body, and He said, “Are ye not all god’s?”
< Message edited by Godhead -- 6/10/2008 6:55:25 PM >
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/21/2008 4:00:47 AM
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Rev_22_4
Posts: 18
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
I cannot remember the verse but does it not say that they will be cast out into everlasting darkness? Does it not also talk of a bottomless pit in revelation that was prepared for the Devil and his angels? If we have no immortal soul that exist apart from the body, then why does Paul talk of this body as being a tent, and not the person themselves?
Again, all these questions but, no attempt to answer mine? Why not? Are my questions not valid?
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ORIGINAL: Godhead
In John 10:36 Jesus speaks of how he was sent down to us by the father, so it speaks clearly that the body does contain an everlasting spirit.
I disagree. This verse does not does not tell us the we have an everlasting spirit. Jesus is God and we are not. We have a beginning but, He doesn't. Only if we are going to go to heaven does our body contain an everlasting spirit since only then will we never die.
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ORIGINAL: Godhead
What was Moses and Elijah doing, when Jesus was transfigured on the mount? Was it just an hallucination.
Moses and Elijah were talking to Jesus about the sacrifice that He was supposed to make. Moses and Elijah are not dead. They are in heaven. We know this because Jude talks about God resurrecting Moses and Elijah just never died. I don't believe it to be a hallucination.
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ORIGINAL: Godhead
Paul speaks of a man who entered heaven, either in spirit or body form. John was in the spirit when he saw the revelations of Jesus Christ. Just because a person cannot understand the existence of a spirit that does not mean it cannot exist.
Is this directed at me? I ask this because I never said that a spirit cannot exist. As a matter of fact, I don't believe we would exist without the spirit that God gave us.
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ORIGINAL: Godhead
There are dangers in claiming that there is no eternal punishment, for that means what has the lost got to lose? They believe in no life after death anyway. No hell then no real reason to repent.
You are talking more of a decision than a danger. I mean if you have decided to go ahead and die, at least you yourself have made that decision and you were not fooled into a death trap. As far as what the lost has to lose goes, they lose their life. Also, I never said people won't be sent to hell. You are trying to use hell as a reason to repent. I don't believe we should be trying to live sinless lives because we are afraid of going to hell. I believe we should be trying to live sinless lives because we believe it is the best way to live in order to experience true joy. You say if there is no hell, there is no real reason to repent. I say there is.
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ORIGINAL: Godhead
The second death will be to remain dead as was the state of Adam after he sinned.
You mean the state of Adam after he died. He continued on living after he sinned. He had Cain and Able and I am sure he taught them the sacrificial system. Then after Cain killed Able, he had Seth. I am sure he had a lot more children other than those three. The second death is the second death. It's death. It's non-existence. "....and thou shalt be no more...." Ezekiel 26:21 "....never shalt be any more." Ezekiel 27:36 "....never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19
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ORIGINAL: Godhead
As there is no more suffering in heaven, in hell there will always be just that.
I disagree. Hell is not eternal.
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ORIGINAL: Godhead
No eternal soul, means that I have nothing to loose.
You might want to say these things out loud before you write them to see how they sound because you are totally contradicting yourself here. No eternal soul has an inherent implication that means the ability to lose your soul. Nothing to lose? You can lose your life!
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And they shall see his face....Revelation 22:4
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RE: Eternal soul - 6/21/2008 1:43:11 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11537
Joined: 4/16/2005
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Rev_22_4, please read the TOS, Statement of Faith and Range of Doctrines for this site. (Links are at the bottom of each page, right above the Salem logo.)
We believe in an eternal heaven and hell.
We do not require that you believe as we do to be a part of our community, but we do not allow forceful and sustained arguments against our beliefs. Thank you for understanding.
Please find another topic, as this one will onl get you into trouble.
Thanks.
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