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Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design - 6/13/2008 10:57:54 AM
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Marcus.
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Bryan Fischer
June 11, 2008
Contrary to popular belief, as historian David Barton points out, the theory of evolution was around long before Charles Darwin. As far back as the 6th century B.C., Greek writers Thales and Anaximander had propounded the theory centuries before the birth of Christ. Aristotle, influenced by his intellectual forbears, also advocated a form of evolution.
Other ancient writers like Diogenes, Empedocles, Democritus, and Lucretius, all writing before the time of Christ, added variations to the theory, including such things as survival of the fittest, natural selection, and mutability of the species.
Philosophers Renee Descartes in the 17th century and Immanuel Kant in the 18th century had argued for the theory of a gradual origin of the solar system as an alternative to instantaneous creation.
Article continued
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 11:12:47 AM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Bryan Fischer
June 11, 2008
Contrary to popular belief, as historian David Barton points out, the theory of evolution was around long before Charles Darwin. As far back as the 6th century B.C., Greek writers Thales and Anaximander had propounded the theory centuries before the birth of Christ. Aristotle, influenced by his intellectual forbears, also advocated a form of evolution.
Darwin's contribution to science are the mechanism by which evolution occurs. Namely, descent with modification, natural selection, and speciation. Darwin got a few things wrong where inheritance is concerned, and many people have contributed to the theory since resulting in the modern theory.
quote:
Other ancient writers like Diogenes, Empedocles, Democritus, and Lucretius, all writing before the time of Christ, added variations to the theory, including such things as survival of the fittest, natural selection, and mutability of the species.
Can you give us references to natural selection in the ancient world?
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Article continued
Oh, you didn't write it. Here is another excerpt from the article that is very interesting.
All through the history of human thought, the debate over the origins of man has been a debate between two competing theories: a theistic and non-theistic explanation. Theism attributes origins to God, while non-theism attributes it to nature.
There have been theistic and non-theistic explanations for almost every phenomena in nature. There was a theistic and non-theistic theory for the production of lightning. There was a theistic and non-theistic theory for the origin of rain. Guess which theories won out?
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 12:20:46 PM
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Jhud
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Well, I think in a sense this is self-evident; the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 1:00:40 PM
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swan42
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, I think in a sense this is self-evident; the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.
Yes, the theistic underpinnings of the Third Amendment are quite unmistakable. 
Article 1, Section 2 Clause 3 are clearly theistic in origin! :-)
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 1:48:55 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Yes, the theistic underpinnings of the Third Amendment are quite unmistakable.
People ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make that sophmoric mistake - the bill of rights isn't the basis of our rights, it's the deliniation of certain rights - the Declaration of Independence lays out the basis of our rights.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 1:51:51 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, the theistic underpinnings of the Third Amendment are quite unmistakable.
People ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make that sophmoric mistake - the bill of rights isn't the basis of our rights, it's the deliniation of certain rights - the Declaration of Independence lays out the basis of our rights.
And people ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make the sophomoric mistake of confusing deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity. The rights spoken of are derived from Nature.
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 2:02:49 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
And people ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make the sophomoric mistake of confusing deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity. The rights spoken of are derived from Nature.
Only people who can't read would assume I was referring to Christianity, and miss in the Declaration " and of nature's God..."
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 2:06:44 PM
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swan42
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, I think in a sense this is self-evident; the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.
Cart/Horse. It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 2:08:02 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Cart/Horse. It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.
Isn't that what I just said?
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 2:13:32 PM
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cow451
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I fail to find "Intelligent Design" in any writings of the founding fathers.
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 2:14:43 PM
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swan42
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Cart/Horse. It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.
Isn't that what I just said?
No, you said they could not have as if to say there was some limitation of an atheist and evolutionary mindsets.
I say they didn't, but they could have.
Especially if the American Revolution occurred after the voyage of the Beagle.
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 2:50:48 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
No, you said they could not have as if to say there was some limitation of an atheist and evolutionary mindsets.
I said:
“the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.”
You said:
“It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.”
Same thing, almost word for word.
quote:
I say they didn't, but they could have.
There is no way to know this of course. How would you show this is true?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 2:51:50 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I fail to find "Intelligent Design" in any writings of the founding fathers.
See, I think they put a lot of thought into their writings.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 3:23:29 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
No, you said they could not have as if to say there was some limitation of an atheist and evolutionary mindsets.
I said:
“the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.”
You said:
“It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.”
Same thing, almost word for word.
Only people who can't read would confuse 'did not' for 'could not'.
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-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 3:38:44 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Only people who can't read would assume I was referring to Christianity, and miss in the Declaration " and of nature's God..."
Where did I say that you were referring to christianity. A simple agreement would have sufficed.
Also, "Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals.
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 3:39:19 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Only people who can't read would confuse 'did not' for 'could not'.
Obviously if you can't you wouldn't.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 3:42:12 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Where did I say that you were referring to christianity. A simple agreement would have sufficed.
You said that I had confused, "deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity"; I had done no such thing.
quote:
Also, "Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals.
I appreciate your attempt to reduce God to an atheistic concept, but no one here is insane.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 3:50:54 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You said that I had confused, "deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity"; I had done no such thing.
No, I said people do.
quote:
I appreciate your attempt to reduce God to an atheistic concept, but no one here is insane.
I said the ideals upon which the Constitution and DoI were based upon include atheistic and humanistic ideals. The deist movement was heavily influenced by atheist ideals. "Nature's God" is a deist god on the same level as Spinoza's God.
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 3:55:01 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
No, I said people do.
You said it in specific response to my statement - if you didn't mean me, then you should not have said in repsonse to my quote, or made it clear I hadn't done so.
I said the ideals upon which the Constitution and DoI were based upon include atheistic and humanistic ideals. The deist movement was heavily influenced by atheist ideals. "Nature's God" is a deist god on the same level as Spinoza's God.
It's like you don't think anyone else can go back and read what you wrote. You said:
""Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals."
It is by definition not atheistic in the least, and other references like "Creator" and "Divine Providence" anihilate such an idea.
And the Deism of that day was nothing like the deism of this day, nor anything like Spinoza's idea of God, nor atheism.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 6/13/2008 4:04:51 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 4:23:43 PM
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swan42
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quote:
“It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.”
Same thing, almost word for word.
The difference in meaning hinges on the difference in words.
You said "could not" I said "did not".
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 4:25:48 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
The difference in meaning hinges on the difference in words.
You said "could not" I said "did not".
I stand by 'could not' - but this would also explain why they 'did not'.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 4:34:39 PM
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swan42
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The difference in meaning hinges on the difference in words.
You said "could not" I said "did not".
I stand by 'could not' - but this would also explain why they 'did not'.
Yes. Now the reason you chose 'could not' is because you think the DoI and Constitution and Bill of Rights that outline rights enjoyed by Americans could not come from an atheist or evolutionary mindset is
1. because atheism and evolution were limited to a tiny corner of political philosophy (possible)
2. because somehow these rights are not conceivable by atheists and evolutionists.
Participants in BeyondBelief 2 are attempting to reconcile #2
http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief2/
< Message edited by swan42 -- 6/13/2008 4:40:57 PM >
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RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent de... - 6/13/2008 4:36:07 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
It's like you don't think anyone else can go back and read what you wrote. You said:
""Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals."
It is by definition not atheistic in the least, and other references like "Creator" and "Divine Providence" anihilate such an idea.
I stand by what I said. Deism and Enlightenment thought was heavily influenced by atheist/humanistic ideals such as those put forward by Thomas Paine. "Common Sense" written by Thomas Paine was one of the greater inspirations for the American Revolution and the ideals which founded the Constitution and inspired the DoI.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason,
It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine
And these are the nice quotes.
quote:
And the Deism of that day was nothing like the deism of this day, nor anything like Spinoza's idea of God, nor atheism.
From my understanding, the Deism of the time proposed that God set the Universe moving and did not interact. Deism denied the existence of a "God of Miracles". Is this how you understand it?
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