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Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/21/2008 8:27:38 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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From: Florence, KY
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Along with two other women in my small congregation, I organized a summer women's Bible study. It is was meant as both an outreach opportunity as well as an opportunity for "our own" women to better know Jesus through in-depth study of God's Word.
One of the "outreach" women is the sister of one of my fellow organizers and based upon discussions with my friend, her sister has some "new age-ey" views of who God is. This week the sister (let's call her Sue) said that she is "already there" in terms of her relationship with God and doesn't need to do the homework in the study book. The reason she is attending our group is because she has received messages from God (audibly) and has been told to share them with individual women. She beleives that she can do what "that woman on the screen" is doing-- God is telling her to speak to other women and give them personal messages. (Our study has accompanying video lessons by the author each week).
Since I lead the small group discussion, Sue's sister, my friend, felt the need to give me a head's-up. My friend also said that she's sure the Bible states that God does not speak audibly to us anymore.
I'm not aware of any verses that support that. I am concerned that these "messages" may not be from God, but the enemy-- especially since she is choosing these messages in leiu of getting into the Word. What I am hoping for from you all is that you can share how you might handle Sue in this situation.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/21/2008 9:20:34 PM
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mvic
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If I may go off-topic:
When leading a group the lecturer (leader) can sometimes be faced with an individual who thinks he knows it all and is keen to show-off his superior knowledge. This person will waste no opportunity to ask clever trick questions or make statements to impress the rest of the group.
It is important the leader does not challenge this individual either publicly or in private as this may turn him into a more determined adversary.
Usually, I try to listen attentively to him and anticipate his questions/clever statements. Then instead of responding I'd say: That's an interesting point. What does anyone think about it?
Note: "Interesting" point - NOT "good" point. You don't need to encourage him to ask more questions. Or imply you agree with him.
Also note: "What does anyone think about it" - NOT "Does anyone agree" otherwise you may find yourself gaining yet another adversary who agrees with the original questioner.
Usually the rest of the group will either let the first and/or second statement pass. Or they will disagree with the individual and side-line him. Of course, you need to referee proceedings carefully so you don't loose total control of the session.
Now about Sue: If she challenges what you say with wrong Bible facts, correct her gently backing your corrections with Bible quotations. Do not let her false Bible statements go un-challenged otherwise you'll loose all credibility and the whole proceedings will fall to pieces.
If she mentions God speaking to her; ask the group what they feel/think about that. Do they believe in audible messages? Have they experience of them?
If Sue is genuine, (and she may be), God will soon let you know. He will confirm these messages to you somehow.
If it is the "enemy" speaking through Sue and trying to disrupt the Bible study, God will also let you know. He will not allow your good work to go into disrepute.
Pray to God before you lead each session. Ask Him to guide you. He'll be with you every step of the way.
Believe me - it is not in His interest to allow the Bible study group to break down into havoc. He will use you to restore order if the devil is at work here. Be prepared to listen to God.
_____________________________
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/21/2008 10:05:24 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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Thanks, mvic. You offer some great advice. I like the "interesting point", um, point.
I think I should mention that am not new to leading small groups, though I have done so in the framework of a much bigger church with a women's ministry program where there was a director of women's ministries and a host of more seasoned women that could be counted on to speak sound Biblical truth. All of the small groups met in classrooms within the church building. This church is different and much smaller-- this small group is meeting in a home. I know there are "tricks" to group facillitation. Beleive me, I have used more than one in my time. I have encountered group monopolizers and groups that don't speak up. I have had to interrupt emotional exhibitonists, but I haven't encountered something that I feel is so possibly enemy-driven. Usually the biggest issue comes in those group members who (as you described) with to impress everyone with their wisdom pertaining to the lesson. I have never encountered someone who has wished to participate without actually completing the study. 
I have prayed over this since learning of it and have spoken Jesus' name to bind him that would be against what we are doing here. Thank you for confirming God's sovereignty in this study-- you are absolutely right.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/21/2008 10:17:03 PM
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mvic
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Hi again,
As you obviously realise - this is not your Bible Study group but God's.
He will not allow it to be disrupted by the devil, (if this is what is happening here).
You role is to listen carefully to God - believe me, He'll advise you what to do.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/21/2008 10:25:16 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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Oh, without a doubt. I wouldn't want it to be my group. What a disaster that would be, huh?
Thankfully He is faithfull. I will count on Him to fight the spiritual battle and I will continue to obey to the best of my human ability.
Please don't misunderstand, mvic. I appreciate your responses and covet your prayers in this matter. I don't in any way wish to discount your advice. I will remember it and add it to my "tool box" if you will. I am hoping to get responses to my other specific concerns, too. I hope there is someone who can speak to the "audible" voice of "god" question and possibly someone who has encountered a blatant interference like this (I really feel in my heart that this is from the enemy) in their ministry as well.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/22/2008 2:32:57 AM
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Liveloved
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4IMPersuaded,
I'm not sure I understand all that you are saying. . . and asking. First, is the information that you have regarding your friend's sister first hand information? or things that your friend has told you? I ask because people misunderstand and jump to wrong conclusions frequently and you may be spending time and energy on a nonissue. That would be satan's desire---to get you focused on this rather than on Jesus and what you are teaching. (And even if the information is from the sister, she may not have understanding either.)
I am a 'seasoned' Bible study leader and have encountered a wide variety of distractions. And I've found that I just have to be more directive in those situations---we have material we need to cover and I need to look out for the needs of ALL. If a person has something they want to discuss further after class time, that is an option.
Fix your eyes on Jesus and don't take satan's bait. If there are things to deal with, He will guide you. Trust Him. He has been faithful and it sounds like you know that. Bless you!  LL
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/22/2008 3:15:32 AM
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BibleL7
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As to God audibly speaking to someone there is nothing mentioned in Scripture that He does or does not do so. As to the situation you can as leader in charge of the group nicely tell Sue that the Lesson will be followed and if she wishes to speak to specific members of items not pertaining to the Lesson this would have to be done outside of the lesson. And if as Sue's sister said Sue does not have correct view of God then this needs to be confirmed and just let Sue know that she is welcome to learn but non-biblical views of God would not be appropreate. I have not known of nor heard of the Lord to have someone give prophacy gift and then have the person not be subject to leadership this would not be Biblical.
< Message edited by BibleL7 -- 6/22/2008 3:28:29 AM >
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/22/2008 9:01:44 AM
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rcjames
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If the Study is being done under the auspecies of the doctrine of the Church, the leader should not let the discussion get too far out of the bounds of that doctrine, if at all. Most small group leaders are not qualified to do apologetics and the discussion just goes down hill.
Discuss what is planned to be discussed.
quote:
One of the "outreach" women is the sister of one of my fellow organizers and based upon discussions with my friend, ...
Careful with this kind of stuff as it just reeks of gossip.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/22/2008 9:18:35 AM
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pbaribeault
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I don't think you can or should deal with Sue's general theology or the way she perceives God in the setting of a small group Bible study. The only way you know about that is because her sister let you know, and it is possible for a Bible believing sister to overreact to this sort of non-Biblical thinking... expressing it as a threat when reality might be much closer to a misunderstanding or an exploration. So don't jump to conclusions, and don't try to address a whole person outside of the scope of the study at hand.
Sue may well keep herself contained during the study. If she does, then there is no "threat". If she speaks up in the study, you've gotten some good methods of gentle repression. If gentle repression is not effective, you might consider something of a firmer set down, like, "I know we all have different spiritual experiences, but what you are talking about is not Biblical, and since this is a Bible study, I think we'll have to stick with a Biblical perspective for the purposes of this discussion. We can talk later on that other topic if you like." (Then do approach her later, armed with prayer and the word.)
If she goes on taking other passages (probably out of context) to try and say she is in line with the Bible, you would deal with that like any side-track, "It's not possible to properly study the whole Bible in one setting. We're trying to understand this passage (or concept) and I think we will do better to stick to the topic. When we decide on our next study, we can consider diving into (Psalms, or whatever)."
Of course there is the repressive look with, "Thanks for your contribution, Sue. Our next question is... Does anyone else want to contribute to the discussion on that point?"
(Oh, to "I can do what the woman on the screen is doing." ... "Really, I find exegesis and application quite a challenging and detailed process. I'm glad I have training and experience to know that I am doing it in a reliable way. I also like that I am able to check that what 'the woman' is saying really is based on God's word. I'm always skeptical of anybody who just talks and thinks that God is glorified by that.")
You might want to insert a study on "testing" "messages" from God against scripture, which is known revelation, or it might be better just to mention that passage casually as you socialize with some of the group members, so that they will know what to do if they receive a "message" from Sue, or that they might come to you for help with the testing.
Of course, be in prayer. Nothing will make you stronger. And may I suggest that you really refresh your overall NT knowledge? You can read the whole NT in 4 or 5 weeks if you read 30-45 minutes a day.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/22/2008 6:33:44 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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Oh, everyone of you have given such good advice and I really appreciate it. Thank you all. You really have confirmed what I already know and that means a lot.
RC-- I understand the concern about gossip, though the sister (my friend) is genuinely concerned for Sue and came to me as the discussion leader so that I could be prepared should she attempt to disrupt the group. Obviously, there is more going on than can be put down in one post, but I am sensitive to gossip couched as "concern" and I don't beleive that is what is going on. You are also correct in that while I have led discussions and been in the Word a great deal, I am not what I would consider "qualified" for apologetics. What a gift that is!
Each of you have given such good suggestions and tools. Our next discussion is on Friday. I don't know which I crave more, the preparation that I get to do or the discussion in which I get to see what the women have learned through their study (probably the former if I had to pick). I love this study-- it is related to breaking down the strongholds in our lives that prevent us from living the Spirit-filled life that God planned for us. I expect to see lives changed this summer and I believe strongly that each woman in this study was pre-ordained to hear something that will radically change her perspective on her relationship with the Father-- including me!!
Blessings to all of you and please don't hold back if you think of anything else that might be helpful in this situation.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/23/2008 10:58:32 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
I love this study-- it is related to breaking down the strongholds in our lives that prevent us from living the Spirit-filled life that God planned for us.
And this is how He's doing it in you! Sometimes we forget that WE might be the ones that God is singling out to teach, to build, to strengthen and to conform. Sounds like He's doing this in you! Amen. Yes, warfare strengthens us mightily if we fight with our spiritual resources. And a study on strongholds is all the more telling. . .bless you! I pray that the Lord does a mighty work in you, 4IMPersuaded! I pray that through this you know in even greater measure the surpassing greatness of His power toward you! Bless ya! LL
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/23/2008 2:05:26 PM
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blue1914
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In reading this thread, one thing strikes me very vividly-the only question with regards to revelation is if it comes from God-in other words, little to no argument is given to the possibility that an "audible" voice must be coming from satan-and why exactly is that among those who claim the name of Christ?
Do we realize in so doing that we (possibly unconciously) attribute a greater ability to satan than we do to the creator of all things? By fiat, we are acknowledging that satan can speak audibly but we are DENYING (or more to the point questioning) that God will use a clear method of communicating with His kids. Seems a little backwards, wouldn't you think?
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/23/2008 2:35:07 PM
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bluestone
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Nip it in the bud. This type of new age belief mixed with a dab of Christianity , "God told me " goo is spreading fast...right out of Lakeland Florida.
I would make it clear that the Bible study consists of:
People who are willing to use the study materials and prepare before hand.
Keep conversation within the confines of of the doctrinal statement of the sponsoring church.
Stay on topic, and not give unwanted spiritual advice to fellow members.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/23/2008 10:52:31 PM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
we are acknowledging that satan can speak audibly but we are DENYING (or more to the point questioning) that God will use a clear method of communicating with His kids.
It was not my intention to imply that God could not or does not communicate using an audible voice.
My assessment was simply that the individual in question was described as 'new age-ey', in need of outreach, spiritually arrogant, and disinterested in Scripture. Plus, her supposed messages were for other individuals.
If the Spirit of God were going to speak to an individual like that, I would expect Him to say what needs saying -- to call her to salvation, to repentance, to humility, to community, to submission. Given that whoever is speaking to her is instead leading her to imagine herself somewhat extravagantly... Well, that's why I thought that the source of this audible voice is likely to be the adversary.
I don't put God in a box (can we say 'omnipotent'?) but I do presume to know something of His character, based on both His revealed Word and His indwelling presence. By this, I presume to guess which things I would think He is likely to be involved or not involved in... Hmmm, I wonder if that makes me spiritually arrogant.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/24/2008 6:34:55 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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quote:
My assessment was simply that the individual in question was described as 'new age-ey', in need of outreach, spiritually arrogant, and disinterested in Scripture. Plus, her supposed messages were for other individuals.
Thank you , pbaribeault, this is my assessment, also-- I wasn't sure how well I was communicating this. I have only had brief encounters with her, but based upon her answers in the discussion group, I have no confidence that she has met our Jesus. I think she thinks she has, but has no drive to get into the Word to know Him better. Her focus seems to be on whether others are getting the messages, nothing about what she is learning through being in God's Word. I pray that the enthusiasm of the others in the group for Bible study is contagious!
quote:
I pray that through this you know in even greater measure the surpassing greatness of His power toward you! Bless ya!
Thank you so much, LL. You have been such a blessing to me lately. I know I sound like a nut to my unchurched friends because I can't help but talk about what I learn every week! Isn't God's Word amazing? Even in reading passages I have been familiar with since childhood, there are new truths to be gleaned. It is indeed the living word, isn't it? Blessings back at you, dear sister!
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/24/2008 7:49:39 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4IMPersuaded
Since I lead the small group discussion, Sue's sister, my friend, felt the need to give me a head's-up. My friend also said that she's sure the Bible states that God does not speak audibly to us anymore.
I'm not aware of any verses that support that. I am concerned that these "messages" may not be from God, but the enemy-- especially since she is choosing these messages in leiu of getting into the Word. What I am hoping for from you all is that you can share how you might handle Sue in this situation.
I'd ask what verses of scripture Sue used to get to that conclusion... I'd have to see what she said before going any further.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/24/2008 9:32:30 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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quote:
I'd ask what verses of scripture Sue used to get to that conclusion... I'd have to see what she said before going any further.
A good bit of advice, for sure. I intend to be very intentional about sticking to the lesson material. The study that we are doing is very in-depth and each day's lesson requires about 45 min to an hour of study. In our meeting format, I really only have about 35 min to cover all five days (which amounts to 7 min per day!) so that we still have time for prayer at the end. It doesn't lend itself to rabbit trails-- we have to leave those for after the formal meeting time. 
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/25/2008 12:52:31 PM
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greatjubee
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I was wondering what it is you are studing?
I teach classes about Jesus the Jew. I have found myself in positions where Christians tell me that I and full of it. The sad part is they come to my class to understand Jesus the Jew, and then they try to use Paul's slanted scripture against Jesus the Jew.
Even though Paul was a Jew and practiced his Judaism every day of his life, Christians try to use his words to suit they own understanding, or those of their church docturine.
Maybe Sue has some important message from God, You can't understand them if you refuse to here what she has to say.
Not listining to others views without and open mind is what Jesus talkes about, if we show Love for that person.
By not allowing yourself to listen to Sue as she see's things are you not placing Judgement upon her?
When Christians feel they must rebuke someone for their beliefs, do they not set out as Judge and Jury?
One thing I also need to express about Jesus the Jew was a sinless man. He studied the Torah and lived his life as a Jew. If he had not followed the Torah (five books of Moses) he would not have been a Sinless man, thus he would not have been able to die on the Cross for our sins.
One big missunderstand Christians learn from Paul's writtings is that Jesus was fighting against the Docturine of Talmud, the Oral Law of the Jews. Jesus was not fighting the written Law the Torah, he was pracitcing it. Had he not followed it as I stated before he could not have died on the Cross.
I hope this helps you and opens you to a new understanding into the Life of Jesus the Jew.
In His Service
Brian
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/25/2008 1:46:10 PM
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doinkdom
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I have found that women who are deceived by their own minds and have an unbiblical view are quickly "silenced" by the presence of a strong godly man.
A woman with such opposing views will be silenced by the visible support of godly men in leadership to the women leading small groups.
I do not agree that this woman should just be ignored and allowed to participate because God will not allow her to do anything wrong. Of course He would and for His own reasons.
One reason might be to bring some conviction to the leader or others involved. (Chafe and wheat.)
One reason might be to challenge the leadership in your church to step up and become more visible.
The list could go on.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/25/2008 2:05:42 PM
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DenimDiva
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
If I may go off-topic:
When leading a group the lecturer (leader) can sometimes be faced with an individual who thinks he knows it all and is keen to show-off his superior knowledge. This person will waste no opportunity to ask clever trick questions or make statements to impress the rest of the group.
It is important the leader does not challenge this individual either publicly or in private as this may turn him into a more determined adversary.
Usually, I try to listen attentively to him and anticipate his questions/clever statements. Then instead of responding I'd say: That's an interesting point. What does anyone think about it?
Note: "Interesting" point - NOT "good" point. You don't need to encourage him to ask more questions. Or imply you agree with him.
Also note: "What does anyone think about it" - NOT "Does anyone agree" otherwise you may find yourself gaining yet another adversary who agrees with the original questioner.
Usually the rest of the group will either let the first and/or second statement pass. Or they will disagree with the individual and side-line him. Of course, you need to referee proceedings carefully so you don't loose total control of the session.
Now about Sue: If she challenges what you say with wrong Bible facts, correct her gently backing your corrections with Bible quotations. Do not let her false Bible statements go un-challenged otherwise you'll loose all credibility and the whole proceedings will fall to pieces.
If she mentions God speaking to her; ask the group what they feel/think about that. Do they believe in audible messages? Have they experience of them?
If Sue is genuine, (and she may be), God will soon let you know. He will confirm these messages to you somehow.
If it is the "enemy" speaking through Sue and trying to disrupt the Bible study, God will also let you know. He will not allow your good work to go into disrepute.
Pray to God before you lead each session. Ask Him to guide you. He'll be with you every step of the way.
Believe me - it is not in His interest to allow the Bible study group to break down into havoc. He will use you to restore order if the devil is at work here. Be prepared to listen to God.
I agree!
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/25/2008 2:53:54 PM
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mvic
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Thanx DenimDiva.
4IMPersuaded: Has Sue actually given any messages to anyone in the Group (alledgedly received audibly or otherwise)?
Do you know what these messages are?
I have as yet no view about Sue one way or the other; but - if these messages are really from God then God will certainly confirm this to either you or someone else in the group.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/25/2008 4:33:19 PM
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buckifn
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As group leader I would find it my responsibility to A. Keep the class on track and B. refer this woman to the Pastor if she has things she feels God is leading her to share ....it isn't your responsibility to make that decision it is the Pastor's. If she is not following the course then I would suggest she drop out and take up something else...however, I would not do any of that based on hearsay from someone other than this member herself..and I would take her to the Pastor to schedule an appt to discuss it with him.
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RE: Gently correcting a Bible Study member - 6/25/2008 5:58:43 PM
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evryknee
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I've known a woman who heard from the Lord and would take those portions of the Bible she read, read it out of context, and do what she 'heard' God say. After further conversations, | | | |
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