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Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/3/2008 4:25:56 PM
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Stratplayer
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What do you think about the lyrics of some popular gospel songs? There have been isses raised about CCM lyrics not measuiring up to Scripture, but in many of those cases I feel that the criticisms are largely subjective. In the case of black gospel music (both traditional and urban), there may be a more clear indicaton that some lyrics are off base. Mainly, some songs are quite obviously rooted in Word-of-Faith theology or have influences from those teachings to variuos degrees. And the thing is that there are some well-known ministers who are also gospel artists that adhere to some controversial teachings such as Word-of-Fatih. Do you think that the popularity of or acceptance of Name It/Claim It theology has contaminated gospel music?
_____________________________
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (Phil. 2:14-15)
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/3/2008 5:44:35 PM
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gaylel1
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Strat, I been wating to talk about this for a long time and I say most of the songs which is coming out of the gospel industry does have bad theology. I'ts like the old addage from American Bandstand, "It has a good beat and I can dance to it."
While the music has the "good beat," some of the songs like "I'm gonna claim this car" or "money" does not make good bibical sense.
I'll give you an example...
My church refused to sell the WoW Gospel series because there are some lyrics on those songs which referenced to the WOF movement. Several years ago there were some questions about some artists who are involved in this theology and the church's book store pulled that particular edition from its shelves.
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Come visit me at http://www.myspace.com/Gaylel121
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/4/2008 2:48:06 PM
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Bobby
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
Strat, I been wating to talk about this for a long time and I say most of the songs which is coming out of the gospel industry does have bad theology. I'ts like the old addage from American Bandstand, "It has a good beat and I can dance to it."
It's everywhere, regardless of genre. I have been more aware since learning of it in August. What you said, gaylel1, is right on target with what many people have for an attitude for church music -- has the beat and able to dance, that's it. Theology be ignored is their idea, and that's why kids are hooked on church music which they can dance with the karaoke CD, but if it is a song with solid doctrine, which is often very slow and majestic, they ignore it.
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/4/2008 3:38:34 PM
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tafkam
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quote:
Theology be ignored is their idea, and that's why kids are hooked on church music which they can dance with the karaoke CD, but if it is a song with solid doctrine, which is often very slow and majestic, they ignore it.
Perhaps some specific examples of which you speak would be in order here....
_____________________________
"A knight must not complain of his wounds, though his bowels be dropping out."
- Don Qixote, MAN OF LA MANCHA
Tafkam
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/4/2008 4:49:04 PM
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Stratplayer
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You guys are slow, I posted this topic on another board and it has grown into quite a discussion  !!! But seriously; I know that doctrinal issues realted to Christian music in general is nothing new. But I wasn't aware that the Word-of-Faith/Prosperity message was that common in CCM or other "non-urban" genres of Christian music. I would like to see some examples too.
SEE THIS DISCUSSION ON LEARNGOSPELMUSIC.COM
_____________________________
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (Phil. 2:14-15)
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/9/2008 12:08:00 AM
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friend2every1
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Well, The Bible does say "Every good and perfect gift comes from God." That is The Bible, more or less. The Bible also says that the love of money, not money in itself, is the root of all evil.
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That's what love is for
To help us through it
That's what love is for
Nothing else can do it
Melt our defenses
Bring us back to our senses
Give us strength to try once more
That's what love is for
-John 3:16, in my own words
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/9/2008 10:08:58 AM
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jontybuntu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: friend2every1
Well, The Bible does say "Every good and perfect gift comes from God." That is The Bible, more or less. The Bible also says that the love of money, not money in itself, is the root of all evil.
Going from there to "God wants to shower you with material possessions" is a big leap.
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/9/2008 8:50:59 PM
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gaylel1
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I was hearing a song by the City of Refuge Mass Choir, which is based in So Cal called, "I'ts not About Us." One of the lines says that "I'ts about Jesus."
This song is one of my favorite songs because the songwriter focused when he wrote this said that we should get the focus off ourselves and get our eyes on the Lord.
There are some very, very good songs in the gospel industry, including the older ones--the older ones did make a lot of sense bibically. And I think the writers are now realizing it now.
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/10/2008 5:29:23 PM
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gaylel1
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How about this title for this song...
"I Want It All Back"...
Is this song a sign of greed or bibical theology?
Or how about one of the leading singers/songwriters who said in one of his songs, "There is greatness in you?" That songwriter singer attends a church in Texas, where the pastor is well known.
Secondly, I read of the passing of Edgar O'Neal, one of the O'Neal twins. For all you kiddies who do not know of them, they were one of the leading gospel groups of the 60's. They had songs like "Jesus Dropped the Charges" and a song saying that "If You Want To Meet Your Maker."
Those songs and others by songwriters like Rev. James Cleveland for example, said something to a person's spirit and soul.
If only the songwriters go back to write songs like that..
< Message edited by gaylel1 -- 2/10/2008 5:38:46 PM >
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/10/2008 6:50:41 PM
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Stratplayer
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There is something that Chrsitian music has in common with most other forms of music. Music is influenced by and is often a reflecton of the culture in which it was created. In the case of urban and traditional black gospel, you have the culture of the black church that comes into play and unfortunatlely that includes an embrace of bad doctrines; particularly WOF. Therefore, the queston goes beyond just music as there are somethings that have come to be accepted within "black church culture" that are non Biblical and is being progenerated through music. But here is the thing; a lot of people are not consciously aware of the doctrines that may have influenced their thoughts. One of the hallmarks of gospel is that is very uplifting. If you've had tough week, you know you could look forward to going to church and hearing the pastor or somebody say a word of encouragement and give you hope that you can make it. That's all good and fine, and I think it's great to be encouraged. But we need to make sure that we are not giving false hope by unintentioanlly spreading false doctrine.
_____________________________
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (Phil. 2:14-15)
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/11/2008 2:53:27 PM
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gaylel1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stratplayer
There is something that Chrsitian music has in common with most other forms of music. Music is influenced by and is often a reflecton of the culture in which it was created. In the case of urban and traditional black gospel, you have the culture of the black church that comes into play and unfortunatlely that includes an embrace of bad doctrines; particularly WOF. Therefore, the queston goes beyond just music as there are somethings that have come to be accepted within "black church culture" that are non Biblical and is being progenerated through music. But here is the thing; a lot of people are not consciously aware of the doctrines that may have influenced their thoughts. One of the hallmarks of gospel is that is very uplifting. If you've had tough week, you know you could look forward to going to church and hearing the pastor or somebody say a word of encouragement and give you hope that you can make it. That's all good and fine, and I think it's great to be encouraged. But we need to make sure that we are not giving false hope by unintentioanlly spreading false doctrine.
Yes, I agree. Back in the day, these songwriters penned songs of hope and even the challenge to come to Jesus. I never heard of a doctorine say that you have to "Encourage Yourself".....now, now stay with me here--I'm not saying that we don't have to be encouraged, but sometimes I wonder where is the Lord in that message?
The Late James Cleveland says that "What good if a song when it does not have a message to bring?" I think the difference with the older songwriters like Cleveland and Doroughx and Mc Kay and that crowd is that their songs said something to get you through the week. I'm not saying that the newer crowd's songs does not say something because there are many of the newer crowd who do incorporate bibicial messages in their works.
I know we are celebrating Black History Month, and these composers should be honored and without them, there would be no gospel as it is today.
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/16/2008 12:26:47 AM
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rebelyell
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some of skillet and red's music is pretty bad. they will not use God's name. they call themselves Christian bands, but will not say His holy name in their music.
_____________________________
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If ye ain't mor keerful, ah'll be a aimin' this 'ere same gun at ye!
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/16/2008 1:51:26 PM
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brotherbear
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I read this artical today and I don't know if this goes in this category or not, but I think there is some truth to it. Anyway, I thought it might fit into the discussion. I'm open to any thoughts and disscussion.
What is the effect of music?
By way of review, let me revisit how the melody, harmony and rhythm of a song need to work together to make a song understandable and useful to the listener.
Remember, the melody of the song gives the song identity; the harmony of the song gives the song beauty; and the rhythm of the song gives the song variety.
Since the melody identifies the song, that alone makes it the most important part of the song. Because of this characteristic, the melody must be the most emphasized part of the song, as it is sung or played.
Harmony follows the melody. To a great degree, the harmony is determined by the melody. Harmony colors the melody but does not change it. In this vein, then, harmony is to be subservient to the tune and thus ought not to dominate, but rather, accompany the melody.
Rhythm gives variety to the song, as it causes us to lengthen or shorten the notes of the melody. The basic beat of the song must be emphasized correctly so the attention is not drawn away from the words to the rhythm. The beat should blend into the song so as not to be obvious or controlling. When the melody, harmony and rhythm of a song are kept in their proper perspective, the believer is edified and God is glorified. Sadly, much of the popular music today is driven by a dominant rhythm, accompanied by some harmony, and the melody is lost in the background somewhere. Is that not confusing?
Does music really have an effect on people, physically, emotionally and spiritually?
An interesting account in the life of King Saul, the first king of Israel, is found in I Samuel 16, as it relates to the potential power of music. God had rejected Saul as king because of his refusal to smite all of the Amalekites. As a result, God allowed an evil spirit to periodically trouble his mind, and he would fly into a violent rage. The remedy, as suggested by the servants, was to have a cunning harpist play for him, and thus drive away the evil spirit.
David was chosen for the job. In verse 23, we read the amazing results of David just playing the harp. There is no evidence that he sang -- only played. It says, "... so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him." The power of God through the yielded hands of David affected Saul in three ways: "Saul was refreshed" -- the music affected him physically; "... and was well" -- the music affected him emotionally; "and the evil spirit departed" -- the music affected him spiritually.
It is clear from this account that music wields a more powerful influence than most people would like to admit. If certain music can be used to drive away evil spirits, is it not safe to assume that there is a kind of music that can summon them as well?
A person's personal beliefs are bound to come out in his music. David had the spirit of the Lord upon him when he was anointed to be the next king of Israel. He was the author of many of the Psalms, which reflected his love, trust and dependence upon God.
David's cheerful, godly presence as reflected in his music caused the evil spirit not to want to stay around. "God "... inhabitest the praises" of his people (Psalm 22:3). "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7). Godly music will keep the imps of Hell at bay while we rejoice in the spirit.
I believe that many Christians today are being influenced by Satan and his cohorts, much to the credit of worldly so-called "Contemporary Christian Music," that is characterized by a devilish, pounding, offbeat rhythm. The result is depression, lust, fear and spiritual anemia.
A recent study by researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital in Charlestown, Mass., showed that many of the brain structures activated by the euphoria of food and sex are also turned on by music. If this is true, it is not hard to believe that certain kinds of music can influence other areas of our mind and behavior.
We need to ask, "Does the music I listen to cause me to think of my savior, or simply satisfy me by making me feel good? Let us be sure our choice of music encourages us to have the mind of Christ.
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/16/2008 8:50:38 PM
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ManimalX
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Hmm.. still no solid examples of "unbiblical" Christian music given.
Strat: I started a thread a while back called "Unbiblical Christian Music" (you can search for it if you want, I don't have time right now) asking people to give examples of supposed unbiblical or doctrinally wrong music. After pages and pages, nobody had been able to cough up one example... basically all you get is people having problems with certain groups or songs because they don't personally like the song style or lyrics, but nothing solid ever comes up.
I will be interested to hear if anyone can show us an "unbiblical" Christian song.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/18/2008 8:21:17 PM
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Stratplayer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Hmm.. still no solid examples of "unbiblical" Christian music given.
Strat: I started a thread a while back called "Unbiblical Christian Music" (you can search for it if you want, I don't have time right now) asking people to give examples of supposed unbiblical or doctrinally wrong music. After pages and pages, nobody had been able to cough up one example... basically all you get is people having problems with certain groups or songs because they don't personally like the song style or lyrics, but nothing solid ever comes up.
I will be interested to hear if anyone can show us an "unbiblical" Christian song.
I think that in the context of gospel music, you have several examples. For exampe, there a song by the Clark Sisters called "Name It Claim It" which is pretty self explanatory. There are also instances in which you'll hear people say things like "I command every marriage to work out", or "I speak porsperity into your life" etc. Classic examples of WOF jarogn. I'll post some lyrics for you to see.
_____________________________
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (Phil. 2:14-15)
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/20/2008 1:57:25 AM
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rebelyell
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now if you are saying that red and skillet are cool because of their music, i agree. especially skillet. however, the lyrics are not always so great. in skillet's song "my obsession" (which is an amazingly awesome song for the music) they talk about "worshipping the air you breathe." now, this either like a "Jesus is my girlfriend" type of song, or actually idolatrous. that is worshipping the created rather than the creator.
and, about them not using God's name, i am perfectly ok with that sometimes. the entire book of Esther goes by without mentioning God. my problem is, they do this in every single one of their songs. if they would just use his name, i would be a lot happier. even then, there would probably be bad theology.
btw, what do you think of day of fire? they are the worst "Christian" band i have ever heard.
_____________________________
Guns don't kill people. Abortion doctors kill people.
If ye ain't mor keerful, ah'll be a aimin' this 'ere same gun at ye!
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/22/2008 2:00:51 PM
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rockitd
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While I don't embrace WOF totally, there are some good things to it. So many people think that poverty is holy. God's people should excell in every part of their lives - physically, mentally, spiritually, and - dare I say it - financially. Does that mean every Christian ought to be rich? NO!!! God can't trust everyone with riches and just as the talents and minas were given out, God gives to each as He wills.
As far as Donald Lawrence's "Encourage Yourself" that Gayle mentioned, it is both Biblical and inspiring:
"Encourage yourself IN THE LORD"
"Now David was greatly distressed, for the people spoke of stoning him, because the soul of all the people was grieved, every man for his sons and aughters. But David ENCOURAGED (strengthened) HIMSELF in the LORD his God." (1 Sam. 30:6).
She also mentioned old schoolers like James Clevland. For me, it's LIFESTYLE for folk like him. I'll leave it at that. But my problem with most of the songs are the OLD ones:
"Lord, don't move my mountain/but give me the strength to climb/Lord, don't move my stumbling block/but lead me all around..."
Where is that in the Word? I'm told to speak to the mountain and it'll move!!!! (Zech. 4:7; Mark 11:23).
"Pass Me not O Gentle Saviour/Hear my humble cry/while on others thou art calling/do not pass me by"
Where is that?!? My God tells me He will never leave me or forsake me (Matt. 28:20; Hebrews 13:5).
_____________________________
He'll finish what He started Phil. 1:6
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/22/2008 7:44:34 PM
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ManimalX
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Stratplayer: I look forward to some lyrics
Concerning Skillet: This group is amazingly Christian. Their songs do a superb job of reaching into people's lives and trials. They also do an amazing live worship set. You can hear an example on an older album called Skillet: Ardent Worship Live. Listen to songs like You Are My Hope, Come My Way, Will You Be There... yeah, the Coopers and their band are fer real, yo.
Concerning Day of Fire: The first CD is one of my favorite rock albums, period. I love Cornerstone and The Rain Song, which is odd because I usually move away from liking the songs that get lots of radio time. I put this CD on frequently when I just want some energetic feelgood rock and roll. I guess this is just a difference of personal taste.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/23/2008 9:52:26 AM
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Stratplayer
Posts: 150
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From: Northern VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Stratplayer: I look forward to some lyrics
Here are some of the lyrics to "Name It and Claim It" by the Clark Sisters:
Name It And Claim It
(written by Elbertina "Twinkie" Clark)
(recorded by The Clark Sisters)
Chorus 1:
quote:
Just name it and claim it,
it's yours, it's yours,
yours for the asking,
yours, it's your blessing;
whatever you need (from the Lord),
Lord, oh, oh, oh, oh,
oh, oh, oh, oh,
oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Verse 1:
If you just grasp your mind,
then you ought to be able
to speak it with your mouth,
it's yours, it's yours...
You can view the rest of the song here
As you can see, these lyrics represent classic Word of Faith teaching. The first verse says quite clearly that if you can conceive something in your mind you can speak it from your mouth and it (what ever "it" is) will come to pass. Beleive me; if this 'name-it-claim-it' business were true, then there would be no broke people in church. And there are other instances during live performacnes or ad-libbed on a recording where WOF jargon is utilized. On Kirk Franklin's new project, he boldly declares on the first song ('This Is It') " I speak against every situation that takes you out of the will of God". This is an example of sayings such as "I speak blessings upon you and your family" or perhaps more often "I bind sickness and poverty a and loose the blessings of God upon your life". The idea, regardless of what the exact words used, is that we have the power to control reality through the power of our faith infused words.
_____________________________
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (Phil. 2:14-15)
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/26/2008 9:45:28 AM
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RCoulter52
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BassSingerSwain
quote:
ORIGINAL: D3kkerfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelyell
some of skillet and red's music is pretty bad. they will not use God's name. they call themselves Christian bands, but will not say His holy name in their music.
You must be listening to other bands named Skillet and Red. They're both awesome bands. 
Plus, must a band say Jesus's name in a song for it to be Christian? Have you not heard of the most well-known hymn of all time, Amazing Grace? How many times is Jesus's name mentioned it?
(Answer. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Must not be a godly song then, eh? 
Actually, it's mentioned once in the first verse, but even only mentioning once breaks the "Jesus Per Minute"rule.
I'm a new member, here. But, I have been playing and singing gospel/Christian music for about 50 years. Don't let that fool any of you because, I survived the '60s and I am still an old rocker at heart.
In response to the above mentioned, bold faced, line. If you are referring to 'Amazing Grace'? I would like to hear the version you are singing. I have been singing that song as long as I have been singing gospel/Christian music and I have yet to say the name of Jesus in it. Lord? Yes. God? Most assuredly! Jesus? Nope!
I am not trying to start a flame war as I am a born again Christian and I steer away from those things or, if I can, resolve them.
Anyway, great discussion. Here's is my take on todays music. If it gets the message out to a group that may,otherwise, not get the message? Then that's great!
One of my favorite verses in the Bible: Psalms 98:4 KJV - "Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise."
Thanks for letting an 'Old Hippy' participate.
God bless you all.
Randie Coulter
Fort Smith, AR
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RE: Gospel Music: Good Music, Bad Theology? - 2/26/2008 1:43:07 PM
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rockitd
Posts: 287
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stratplayer
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Stratplayer: I look forward to some lyrics
Here are some of the lyrics to "Name It and Claim It" by the Clark Sisters:
Name It And Claim It
(written by Elbertina "Twinkie" Clark)
(recorded by The Clark Sisters)
Chorus 1:
quote:
Just name it and claim it,
it's yours, it's yours,
yours for the asking,
yours, it's your blessing;
whatever you need (from the Lord),
Lord, oh, oh, oh, oh,
oh, oh, oh, oh,
oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Verse 1:
If you just grasp your mind,
then you ought to be able
to speak it with your mouth,
it's yours, it's yours...
You can view the rest of the song here
As you can see, these lyrics represent classic Word of Faith teaching. The first verse says quite clearly that | | | |
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