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HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 12:09:08 PM
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rcjames
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A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular.
The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed.
Opinions please?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/8/2008 12:15:40 PM >
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:03:23 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular.
The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed.
Opinions please?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
I don't think that is a new way of thinking. In fact it has been recorded in the bible before the trip to promised land. Cain is a prime exsample for he tried to hide it.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:09:53 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I don't think that is a new way of thinking. In fact it has been recorded in the bible before the trip to promised land. Cain is a prime exsample for he tried to hide it.
Tried to hide what? His sin.
Do you think it is necessary to confess sin to God or to ask God for forgiveness if a Christian commits a sin? Or do you think that a Christian who commits sin is just automatically forgiven?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:11:57 PM
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john_mark
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i think scripture has many examples where the need for christians to repent is shown. one of my favorites comes at the end of the Lord's prayer.
9 "Pray, then, in this way: `Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 `Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 `Give us this day our daily bread. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For F Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]' 14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
the key being verses 14 and 15.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:12:29 PM
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bob97
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That brings up an interesting question. I have always been a believer that one needs to keep their slate clean, asking forgiveness for new sins in our life. In the OT people were constantly doing sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin because there was no lasting atonement in the blood of animals. With the new covenant Christ died once for our sins and if we needed constant forgiveness for sin wouldn’t we be placing Christ on the cross again and again?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:19:18 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I don't think that is a new way of thinking. In fact it has been recorded in the bible before the trip to promised land. Cain is a prime exsample for he tried to hide it.
Tried to hide what? His sin.
Do you think it is necessary to confess sin to God or to ask God for forgiveness if a Christian commits a sin? Or do you think that a Christian who commits sin is just automatically forgiven?
Thanks
RC
Yes a person needs to confess the sin in which they have commited. I don't believe in generalization the sins like "God forgive me of my sins" and not even realise the sins that you may have done. But to think how we act.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:25:00 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
That brings up an interesting question. I have always been a believer that one needs to keep their slate clean, asking forgiveness for new sins in our life. In the OT people were constantly doing sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin because there was no lasting atonement in the blood of animals. With the new covenant Christ died once for our sins and if we needed constant forgiveness for sin wouldn’t we be placing Christ on the cross again and again?
Bob
But don't you do that when you sin? Please don't tell me you haven't sin since you gotten converted.
Because Paul wrote that he wrestled with it all the time.
To not show love towards someone at anytime it is a sin. I just can't believe that anyone is perfect in that on this green planet.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:32:16 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Yes, but I think that many of the people who espouse the HF thingy are excusing unrepentant sin. IOW, they continue doing what they have been doing even when wrong because they believe they are forgiven. There is no crucifixion of the flesh ever.
Sometimes I sit here and try to figure out what people are saying. I'm stumped. What is "the HF thingy?"
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:37:15 PM
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LCannon
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"Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, (it is) baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."(The Cost of Discipleship -Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
"Talk is cheap, show me your faith without obedience and I will show you my faith by my obedience." James 2:17,18
Without evidence of a changed life experience in obedience to His sacrifice/Victory why should we(as the church)believe them? I can't judge another eternal salvation; if one claims to be redeemed by the same blood as me only time will tell however I can distance myself from their witness(or lack of obedience)and influence.
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Me and I will answer with great and mighty things which thou can't imagine." Hudson Tayor
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:38:57 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
That brings up an interesting question. I have always been a believer that one needs to keep their slate clean, asking forgiveness for new sins in our life. In the OT people were constantly doing sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin because there was no lasting atonement in the blood of animals. With the new covenant Christ died once for our sins and if we needed constant forgiveness for sin wouldn’t we be placing Christ on the cross again and again?
Bob
Yes, but I think that many of the people who espouse the HF thingy are excusing unrepentant sin. IOW, they continue doing what they have been doing even when wrong because they believe they are forgiven. There is no crucifixion of the flesh ever.
Yes like those in history who would get drunk and have orgies. Because they were of the elected and everthing in their eyes was under the blood.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:52:54 PM
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bob97
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quote:
But don't you do that when you sin? Please don't tell me you haven't sin since you gotten converted.
I sin at times, not because I intend to but because I am weak. I'm also quite sure I sin without knowing because I fall short of the life that God desires me to lead.
But I am quite sure in my own mind that as long as it is my heart felt desire to live a sin free life and attempt to live a life according to God's will he will overlook the casual sin in my life.
This being said, I have to admit that I ask forgiveness on a daily basis for general sin and I don't have any large in your face sin to worry about...hope I never do.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 1:54:41 PM
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JimboFletch
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It could be that some people assume that because they seem to sin without penalty that they no longer have to deal with sin. The Bible indicates there's is a completely different situation. It states in Hebrews 12:6-8,
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye [illegitimate], and not sons.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 2:02:50 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Yes, but I think that many of the people who espouse the HF thingy are excusing unrepentant sin. IOW, they continue doing what they have been doing even when wrong because they believe they are forgiven. There is no crucifixion of the flesh ever.
My only comment to this is...if they continue to sin without conscience, they do not have Christ in their heart. Under the new covenant the Holy Spirit writes the law of God in our heart, the same as is promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31: "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts."
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 2:03:46 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
It could be that some people assume that because they seem to sin without penalty that they no longer have to deal with sin. The Bible indicates there's is a completely different situation. It states in Hebrews 12:6-8,
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye [illegitimate], and not sons.
Awww, you're just being legalistic. That doesn't apply to people with very strong faith. 
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Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 2:07:14 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Yes like those in history who would get drunk and have orgies. Because they were of the elected and everthing in their eyes was under the blood.
Oh, yeah, but by their fruits ye shall know them.
Jude 1
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe that sin is under the blood for believers and believers have been born again from above, not because they went forward in a church service. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. God sanctifies believers. He convicts them of sin. He leads them in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Romans 6
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
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“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 3:42:08 PM
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rcjames
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Here are some of the verses the Hyper-Forgiveness folks use to support their claim.
Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace...
2 Corinthians 5:19
...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
Hebrews 10:17-18
heir sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Colossians 1: 13-14
For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 4:32
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Romans 4:7
Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
1 John 2:12
I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
Yea, I don't see the connection either between these verses and support for not confessng one's sins to God, not asking frogiveness for ones sins, or not repenting.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 4:16:22 PM
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Jhud
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I think part of the problem might be language (as it often is) if one comes into a saving relationship with Christ via faith in redemptive work on the cross, then one is born again, and nothing will change that condition, just as nothing will change the fact that my children are mine, and bear my name, once they are born into my family.
However, for my children to have an enjoyable, pleasing relationship with me, disobedience must be dealt with and their characters must be shaped by my diligent work as a parent; part of this process is their willingness to admit wrongs, ask forgiveness, and turn away from that behavior - of course, being an imperfect parent, often the same is required of me.
I would think as some of the Scripture people have posted indicates the same is true of our relationship with our Father - none of which changes our status as those born into His family by faith through grace.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 4:26:46 PM
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mcleod
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Bob,
quote:
My only comment to this is...if they continue to sin without conscience, they do not have Christ in their heart. Under the new covenant the Holy Spirit writes the law of God in our heart, the same as is promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31: "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts."
Oh boy! oh boy do I agree with that. You should run and hide now because I agree with you.
I got to write you this little story. This man one time told me he didn't believe that one commercial on TV awhile back that they were standing in line and waiting for God to judge them. Which it was a snickers candy bar, which if I recall was stated" going nowhere try a snickers". But back to it the gentleman said "I don't believe that God is going to bring up every sin. Because that would take years to do." So I'm in heaven and he won't bring up the past because I have been forgiven of them by calvary.
So my responce to him, was "are you generalizing when you pray like that to God forgive me or are saying Lord I'm truly sorry the way I acted with that person." That I ask you to humble me so that I will not make that mistake again."
His next words were "I have no problems with that." I don't treat anyone wrongly." So I didn't make issue with him then. But couldn't help to think where is the humbleness that God calls for in that statement. One thing is what I try to practice is what David did and said. Search me oh God and know my heart see if anything displeases you.
Thou I fail I try to keep the battle going. For satan is eager to have us to stumble.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 4:49:30 PM
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Zhi
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Mm, I think it's simple enough:
1 John 1:5.This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6.If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie , and do not the truth:
7.But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another , and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10.If we say that we have not sinned , we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
John is talking to Christians here, and confession of sins seems to be a pretty important thing we should be doing.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 5:40:02 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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Christians do confess sins they've been made aware of.
Psalm 139
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/8/2008 7:09:05 PM
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rcjames
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I think another Scripture that counters the 'Automatic forgiveness" idealology is;
(Jam 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(Jam 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
If someone comes before the Lord and the Elders and they pray the prayer of faith; then if he has committed sins; they shall be forgiven. Does seem to me that it is not "Automatic" in this passage.
Jhub, would not you agree that Scripture instructs us to seek forgiveness and confess our sins, and to repent of those sins?
You may be right, that this live of thinking may flow from OSAS, but Christ said this;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
So if one refuses to Confess, seek forgiveness, or to repent of their sins; does that not speak volumns to their relationship with God, or lack thereof.
Thanks
RC
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