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Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 1:02:14 AM
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Nicole21
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Ok I have always wondered how people achieve eternal salvation in the old testament. I know they had to make a sacrifice to atone for their sin, but was that it??? Please help me i'm confused
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 1:12:10 AM
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DenimDiva
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Excellent question Nicole! I don't have an answer because I've never given it any thought. I'm sure someone has an answer.
BTW- welcome to the forums!
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 1:47:18 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nicole21
Ok I have always wondered how people achieve eternal salvation in the old testament. I know they had to make a sacrifice to atone for their sin, but was that it??? Please help me i'm confused
Actually the sacrifices that they made were to cover their sins, not to remove them.
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:13-14)
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)
But once a year on Yom Kipor there was a special sacrifice. Leviticus 16:1-23 tells of the special offerings of that day. I think that is what you are thinking about, it is also where we get our term scapegoat.
However, Their real path to salvation was the same as ours, belief in the Messiah...they believed and looked forward to the coming of The Salvation of the Lord, His anointed one.
And the way it worked out showed it to be a God thing....as in Hebrew The salvation of the Lord "just happens" to be ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âh....or as it would be transliterated into Greek- Jesus.
Tim
< Message edited by BerianAardvark -- 6/16/2008 1:54:13 AM >
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 2:44:02 AM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
However, Their real path to salvation was the same as ours, belief in the Messiah...they believed and looked forward to the coming of The Salvation of the Lord, His anointed one.
Exactly. And He was promised way back at the Fall when there were only two people. No one anywhere ever had an excuse for not believing in Jesus!
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 3:27:18 AM
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SinnerSaved
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As has been pointed out, sacrifices in the Old Testament were made to cover sins.
Salvation was found in faith and belief in the coming Messiah (See the Old Testament Hall of Fame in Hebrews 11), but there is only one way to heaven.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus was and is the only way to heaven. When the people of the Old Testament died, they went to Sheol (Hades) - a kind of holding place for the dead. Sheol held both the saved and the lost, but between them was a 'great gulf fixed' (See Luke 16:19-26). The saved part of Sheol was called Paradise, or Abrahams Bosom.
During the 3 days between His death and resurrection, Jesus went to Sheol and took the faithful with Him to Heaven:
Ephesians 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 9:37:26 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nicole21
Ok I have always wondered how people achieve eternal salvation in the old testament.
The same way it is today--through the forgiveness of their sins. Before and after the resurrection people come to the realization that they cannot please God. The humble in heart fall helplessly on His mercy to be spared judgement, knowing there is no other possible way to be saved from that judgement. God delights in these kind. He forgives them and the mercy they receive does not go without consequence to their lives from then on.
But The proud in heart cling to their own efforts to please God, rationalizing and justifying the reality of their failures and shortcomings, even blaming and accusing God Himself for their failures, while exalting what little good they can do. They reject God's forgiveness and rely on the efforts of their own good works to save them. These kind do not receive the forgiveness that saves.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/16/2008 9:43:59 AM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 12:38:56 PM
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LCannon
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The simple answer is: the OT sacrifice/atonements were 'looking forward' to the Messiah while after Christ's Cross/Victory was(is)the Atonement in obedience to the Father.
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 3:22:06 PM
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DaveW
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In the ancient Israelite religion and modern Judiasm, "salvation" is a somewhat nebulous term. The Hebrew scriptures deal very little with the concept of after-life, and certainly no specifics are given. Consequently, it is not a burning issue in the minds of modern day Jews.
Yes, there was a sacrifice system. It was/is important to keep the sins covered and to walk pleasing to God. The preoccupation with afterlife (heaven or hell) is purely a NT issue. Jews were/are covered from birth by the covenants of Abraham and Moses. These were salvic in our sense of the word. Of course, now with the New Covenant, Jewish people must embrace Jesus/Yeshua to be "Saved" in our sense. Rom 11 says if that does not happen, then the Jews are broken off.
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 8:45:46 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
In the ancient Israelite religion and modern Judiasm, "salvation" is a somewhat nebulous term. The Hebrew scriptures deal very little with the concept of after-life, and certainly no specifics are given. Consequently, it is not a burning issue in the minds of modern day Jews.
I had been expecting to articulate this very thought in another thread sooner or later, and you have done a fine job of sizing it up here. It's impossible to draw direct parallels between salvation as we know and understand it, and salvation as it is portrayed in the OT. I don't want this to be to simplistic or generalized, but death and dying in the OT illustrate not being saved, while life, abundance and prosperity illustrate salvation.
Joseph giving instructions to have his bones taken into the promised land is a glimpse into the understanding of what eternal life meant to the patriarchs. A lot could be said about the meaning of that request (figurative and literal), but he apparently fully intended to be resurrected in his natural body to possess the promises of God.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/16/2008 10:56:29 PM
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PressingUpward
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Cool information, thank you.
I'll keep reading.
Sj
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/17/2008 12:28:51 AM
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Nicole21
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Thank you so much everyone I get it now definitely. I can't tell you how grateful I am to finally understand. Now I feel stupid for not getting it before
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/17/2008 12:32:21 AM
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DenimDiva
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You shouldn't feel stupid at all Nicole!
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/23/2008 4:41:18 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nicole21
Thank you so much everyone I get it now definitely. I can't tell you how grateful I am to finally understand. Now I feel stupid for not getting it before
I learned most of what I know by asking questions and listening to the answers (then evaluation them in light of scripture), I'm sure that all of the rest of us learned the same way. In fact the only way that we can truly repay those who discipled and instructed us is to do the same for others.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/24/2008 12:19:41 AM
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Shrommer
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"Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow ... if you are willing and obedient." And of course their willingness and obedience is for them to be washed in the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, … yet … the generation Isaiah spoke to was given the promise of being cleansed in the blood of Christ without ever hearing the name of Jesus spoken or knowing the story of his death and resurrection, etc.
"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". Neither Adam and Eve, nor Abraham, had any news of the virgin birth, the crucifixion, etc., yet the New Testament tells us that Abraham had a faith in God's ability to raise people from the dead. Abraham had a firm belief in God's covenant relationship, and in the offering of blood sacrifices. "The just will live by faith." (See James 2:23, etc. These two verses are the most repeated verses in the Bible, where the Bible quotes itself.) "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". "The just will live by faith."
Romans 10:17 says that salvation is only to those who hear the Gospel message. Galatians 3:8 says that the same Gospel was preached in advance to Abraham. Hebrews 4:1-7 also says that the same Gospel was preached to the Hebrews in the wilderness as is preached in the New Testament about Christ. People could be saved in times past, NOT WITHOUT the sacrifice of Christ, but yes BEFORE the sacrifice of Christ as they looked forwards to it in faith. There were limited in their knowledge of Christ by time/place. God still had to send his son to earth to save them.
From God’s perspective, the Word of God which promised salvation was the same spoken to Abraham AND the same that Paul preaches, even though Abraham lacked detail. Hebrews 11:13-16 says “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them from afar off were assured of them, … Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.”
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/24/2008 12:23:52 AM
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Shrommer
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A quick word about "heaven". The Bible tells us about paradise in the New Testament, but most other references speak of a "new heavens and a new earth." Revelation also speaks of the New Jerusalem. We also read about God's throne.
There are several mentions of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven, of powers in heavenly places, etc., but as far as I am concerned, the concept of our going to heaven when we die is more based on human reasoning, whereas the Bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth together.
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 6/24/2008 6:18:41 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Shrommer
A quick word about "heaven". The Bible tells us about paradise in the New Testament, but most other references speak of a "new heavens and a new earth." Revelation also speaks of the New Jerusalem. We also read about God's throne.
There are several mentions of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven, of powers in heavenly places, etc., but as far as I am concerned, the concept of our going to heaven when we die is more based on human reasoning, whereas the Bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth together.
It also speaks of the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The primary thing about heaven or the new heavens and earth/new Jerusalem is that it is there that the presence of God is found.
Revelation 21:3-4 (3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, (4) and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Revelation 21:22-27 (22) I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (23) And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.(24) The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (25) In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; (26) and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; (27) and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Heaven is (as nearly as I can make out) eternal life in the presence and service of God. We were created to love and serve God, so such an eternity cannot help but be fulfilling and enjoyable, doing what we were made to do.
And Hell, its opposite, life without God, serving only self eternally. And if you don't think that would be torment, take a look at the people around you who are the most self centered....are they the happiest people you know, or the most miserable?
Tim
< Message edited by BerianAardvark -- 6/24/2008 6:24:51 AM >
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 7/21/2008 9:18:29 PM
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Shrommer
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"Of old You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands, They will perish, but You will endure: yes, they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak you will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same and Your years will have no end." Psalm 102:25-27
Isaiah 51:6 "... for the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, ..."
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 7/21/2008 10:45:45 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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As mentioned above their sins were not forgiven just postponed until Christ. That is why they went to paradise and not heaven. God cannot look at sin and their sins were still there. That is what it is talking about when it says Jesus took captivity Captive, and some of the old testaments saints were seen walking among men. But after Jesus ascended to heaven so did they, and now believers go to heaven and not to paradise.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 7/21/2008 11:55:14 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Jews were/are covered from birth by the covenants of Abraham and Moses. These were salvic in our sense of the word.
Dave...
I don’t think that the Abrahamic covenant saved anyone. If that would have been the case then the Israelite with Moses would have all been saved…it’s apparent that they were not when God says “When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest.” (Heb 3:9-11)
Bob
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 7/22/2008 11:27:47 AM
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Lew
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
As mentioned above their sins were not forgiven just postponed until Christ. That is why they went to paradise and not heaven. God cannot look at sin and their sins were still there. That is what it is talking about when it says Jesus took captivity Captive, and some of the old testaments saints were seen walking among men. But after Jesus ascended to heaven so did they, and now believers go to heaven and not to paradise.
Hi AboundinginhisGrace,
That does fit in with the part in Matthew that was different to the other gospels
Matthew 27:50-56
50 Then Jesus shouted out again, and he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain in the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead 53 after Jesus' resurrection. They left the cemetery, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.
Interesting stuff because in the other gospels this was not mentioned.
I think sometimes its good to remember that the Suffering servant Jesus is still God. God paying for our debt with this own blood, And that before he was on earth (immanual) he was still god. THis no doubt is who Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc went to when they were taken to heaven - the question has to be asked though whether or not the poeple who did not believe in Christ when he was on earth would have had the same faith..I think not.
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RE: Heaven in the old testament - 7/22/2008 1:35:51 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lew
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
As mentioned above their sins were not forgiven just postponed until Christ. That is why they went to paradise and not heaven. God cannot look at sin and their sins were still there. That is what it is talking about when it says Jesus took captivity Captive, and some of the old testaments saints were seen walking among men. But after Jesus ascended to heaven so did they, and now believers go to heaven and not to paradise.
Hi AboundinginhisGrace,
That does fit in with the part in Matthew that was different to the other gospels
Matthew 27:50-56
50 Then Jesus shouted out again, and he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain in the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead 53 after Jesus' resurrection. They left the cemetery, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.
Interesting stuff because in the other gospels this was not mentioned.
I think sometimes its good to remember that the Suffering servant Jesus is still God. God paying for our debt with this own blood, And that before he was on earth (immanual) he was still god. THis no doubt is who Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc went to when they were taken to heaven - the question has to be asked though whether or not the poeple who did not believe in Christ when he was on earth would have had the same faith..I think not.
I totally agree with you, good stuff.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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