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High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/5/2009 3:23:17 AM
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yohannan
Posts: 265
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Four days, one week.
Four years, one seven year period.
2018-2021; the period of the trumpets feast of the announcement of The decision of God as written in Revelation and the feast of the FirstFruits who are sealed from being harmed from these. You prepare a table in the presence of my enemies.
Where 2013 (2009 + 3.5) includes the reckoning of the year to the Ministry of Jesus Messiah on the solar gregorian calendar in which we just had two consequtive friday the 13ths in two months...
13 , 13, 13
13 tribes brought out of Egypt, 13 tribes sent captive to diaspora Babylon, 13 tribes regathered (for Ephraim is reckoned as Judah for the diaspora is written)
Else, there were 14 tribes total, including Joseph and Levi.
12 with land tribal boundaries given at Prophecy.
14 tribes, and 14 Apostles minus one equals 13; for one was the betrayer.
2013-2014 in reconciled dates.
2014-2021 is a seven year window which may be adjusted for the 3.5 year discrepancy on the gregorian calendar.
1290 days is half the allotted time period of one seven year period given for Pharoah to prepare for the trouble to come of the famine in Egypt in the time of Joseph. 1290+- days is half the allotted time period for Pharoah of Egypt to undergo the provisioning necessary for the wartime efforts to come with the false prophet who will come to oppose the empire(s) worldwide and prevail concerning them in the north and over Egypt. For these days will be cut short is written; therefore the Lord gave us only one seven year period, instead of two.
< Message edited by yohannan -- 9/5/2009 3:33:16 AM >
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/5/2009 9:47:54 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shabbat shalom, yohannan.
You're throwing around 4s and 7s and 12s and 13s and 14s randomly and have not 1 shred of evidence!
Are you using 4 as 3.5 rounded to the nearest day or year?
Now, about 13:
It's NOT an "unlucky number," y'know. That's just superstition. Furthermore, it is not all that unusual to have consecutive Fridays the 13th. All it takes is for February to contain one because we are dealing with 7 days per week. Thus, when the month of February, which 3/4ths of the time has 28 = 4 x 7 days, contains a 13th that falls on Friday, March MUST have one, too!
Months that have 30 days and a 13th that falls on Friday MUST have a month following it that has a 13th that falls on Sunday.
Months that have 31 days and a 13th that falls on Friday MUST have a month following it that has a 13th that falls on Monday.
It's just simple mathematics.
HOWEVER, all that is using the Gregorian calendar. It would be FAR better to use the Jewish calendar because that calendar is based on the lunar cycles--TRUE "moonths." The Gregorian calendar is based on the solar cycle, seen primarily in the growing seasons, i.e. when to plant, when to harvest.
Next, about 14:
Yosef (Joseph) CONTAINS EXACTLY both Efrayim (Ephraim) and M'nasheh (Mannaseh). You CAN'T just list both Yosef and Efrayim, unless Yosef represents M'nasheh. On the flip side, you CAN'T just list both Yosef and M'nasheh, unless Yosef represents Efrayim. Yosef had no other sons! Yosef = Efrayim + M'nasheh. He can represent one or the other or both, but he CANNOT represent ANY tribe that is other than BOTH! Understand that? At most, you can ONLY say that there are 13 tribes.
And, to say that there were 14 original Apostles is also wrong. Who are you thinking of?! The Twelve CONTAINED the one who betrayed Yeshua`! When he committed suicide, there were only 11! That's why they felt they needed to add to their number and added one of the two under consideration. NOTE: It was NOT one selected directly by Yeshua`. They chose him by lot between two, and the lot fell on Matityahu (Matthias, which, by the way, is the same name as "Matthew"). Then, they were back to 12. If you add Rav Sha'ul (Paul) to the NEW Twelve, you might get 13, but he was never considered one of the Twelve (or the "Thirteen"). Now at this point in time, you can't go back and add in the traitor! That is ridiculous!
It's also important to understand that there is nothing unique about the Greek word "apostolos." It just means "one who is sent (as on a mission)." What made the Twelve unique was that they were SPECIFICALLY CHOSEN by the Master Yeshua`, while He was here in the flesh, for HIS mission! However, in truth, ANY who are so commissioned by the Master Yeshua`, whether Yeshua` is here in the flesh or not, are technically "apostoloi!" Today, we use the word "missionaries," where "missionary" means "one (who is sent) on a mission."
Now, some other points:
I think you must have started with your conclusion without identifying it as such. One can "telegraph one's punch" and state the conclusion at the beginning IF he identifies it as the conclusion and then goes back to make the case for his conclusion by listing the steps and the proofs he used to come to that conclusion. Often, it is better NOT to "telegraph one's punch" and just go through the logic that brings you ultimately--at the END of the logic--to one's conclusion.
I think what you are saying (correct me, if I am wrong) is that you believe the 7 years of Tribulation will be in 2014-2021. Am I right? If so, then I also assume that 2018-2021 would be considered by some to be the Wrath of God and of the Lamb, the last half of the 7 years, right? HOWEVER, you were not really clear about how you arrived at those dates. (I HOPE it wasn't just because the numbers 2013 and 2014 ended in 13 and 14!) Furthermore, I'm not really clear how you arrived at 2013: You see, it looks like you used a 3-1/2-year period added to TODAY'S year to come up with it, but WHY would you do that? So far, there's nothing special about THIS year! (It could BECOME special, if God chooses to do something for the prophetic time table this year, but so far nothing has happened except the on-going preparation for the End.)
Finally, the analogy drawn from Pharaoh's dreams and Yosef's interpretations and the preparation that followed is also unfounded. To throw it in at the end just tends toward confusion.
Still in and always in the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/5/2009 11:45:49 AM
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bob97
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yohannan...I'm sorry but your post are without meaning to me and I sure they are to others. It could be that you are so far ahead of the rest of us that we just can't comprehend.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/5/2009 11:47:02 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 324
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
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Good post Roy. Yohannan, I am sorry, but Roy did a very good job cutting through all that you wrote to get at what you were trying to say, because I couldn't make a lick of it at all. It reminded me of that Jim Carrey movie 13 (I could be wrong on the title). I agree with Roy, though... I wouldn't be unwilling to consider aything that you were trying to say IF you had any evidence (namely Biblical and historic) to back up your theory. Hammer out some evidence for us and then we will go from there. God bless you, bud.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/5/2009 1:31:45 PM
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yohannan
Posts: 265
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Concerning the Prophets Ephraim and Judah are reckoned to be conjoined in one stick and the fulfillment of this is presently coming forth with the sign of the peoples as one nation in the land.
Ephraim and Judah are Prophesied in Ezekiel 37:19 as stick of reckoned son of Israel by Prophesy which was of Joseph for the older will serve the younger is written where Ephraim is the diaspora and both Sons were of an Egyptian woman as was Ishmael. For I will choose some of these to be My Priests is written and I Go to prepare a place for you, for those of the true House of God (Bethel) are all of God's children for God does not look at these divisions with regards to the worldly perception of the angelically instituted ethnic and languages and cultures in the same manner as peoples, for He searches the hearts and minds of the peoples and Knows what secrets He Hid there. I came not to bring 'peace', but division which is the carryingforward of the tower of Babel decision.
The children of God have enmity with the Dragon and those who sin are servants to sin, but a son remains forever. For a slave in bondage has no permanent place in the family unless set free in the seventh and offered a rededication pledge to servitude to the Good Master, but the Good news is that He descended into hades and set the captives held long ago in bondage free and paraded the enemy around in the Colosseum triumphing over them.
Thus, my family are those that hear the Word of God and put these things into practice through faith is written.
40 years in the desert, divided in half for the ages of those who are eligible to enter the land; plus 2-4 1/2 years for the training of Joshua and the battles of Jerico which Moses was still with the people of Israel.
42-44 1/2 months is written which is 1335 days completing the Prophecy of the 'sevens' which is 1290 plus 1290 divided in the middle for one seven year leap period on the calendar. For 2 1/2 months is 75 days plus the 1260 days allotted as written.
For the Queen of Sheba will arise and condemn those who take the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet is written regarding this last city called Corazin who saw performed sigs and wonders and miraculous feedings and teachings. For She is Our Lady of the Angels and they listened to the wisdom of the Only Mount of the Holy One is written regarding God's Holy Hill. The True Citizens of the Kingdom are those of a better Country with a High Banner calling; His Banner over Me Is Love for God is Love and Love comes from God and the Greatest is Love for Love fulfills the Commandment as kept and the fruits of The Spirit is Love The One with everything that one has; mind, heart, soul, and tabernacle of the earthen vessel. For the Feast of the Tabernacles will be celebrated in The Millennium as written and every leader must send a representative or they will not have rain is written.
In these times, peoples will come and offer incenses in the memorial as written in the Prophets and leaders will have been coming to entreat The Lord is written, and the fulfillment of the Prophecy will be the Ingathering Harvest as written in Revelation regarding the Harvest of the earth which is that those who are delivered over to the nations will submit themselves to the Good fight in offering their lives in dedication to The Will of God in war and enmity with the false prophet as written.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, yohannan.
You're throwing around 4s and 7s and 12s and 13s and 14s randomly and have not 1 shred of evidence!
Are you using 4 as 3.5 rounded to the nearest day or year?
Now, about 13:
It's NOT an "unlucky number," y'know. That's just superstition. Furthermore, it is not all that unusual to have consecutive Fridays the 13th. All it takes is for February to contain one because we are dealing with 7 days per week. Thus, when the month of February, which 3/4ths of the time has 28 = 4 x 7 days, contains a 13th that falls on Friday, March MUST have one, too!
Months that have 30 days and a 13th that falls on Friday MUST have a month following it that has a 13th that falls on Sunday.
Months that have 31 days and a 13th that falls on Friday MUST have a month following it that has a 13th that falls on Monday.
It's just simple mathematics.
HOWEVER, all that is using the Gregorian calendar. It would be FAR better to use the Jewish calendar because that calendar is based on the lunar cycles--TRUE "moonths." The Gregorian calendar is based on the solar cycle, seen primarily in the growing seasons, i.e. when to plant, when to harvest.
Next, about 14:
Yosef (Joseph) CONTAINS EXACTLY both Efrayim (Ephraim) and M'nasheh (Mannaseh). You CAN'T just list both Yosef and Efrayim, unless Yosef represents M'nasheh. On the flip side, you CAN'T just list both Yosef and M'nasheh, unless Yosef represents Efrayim. Yosef had no other sons! Yosef = Efrayim + M'nasheh. He can represent one or the other or both, but he CANNOT represent ANY tribe that is other than BOTH! Understand that? At most, you can ONLY say that there are 13 tribes.
And, to say that there were 14 original Apostles is also wrong. Who are you thinking of?! The Twelve CONTAINED the one who betrayed Yeshua`! When he committed suicide, there were only 11! That's why they felt they needed to add to their number and added one of the two under consideration. NOTE: It was NOT one selected directly by Yeshua`. They chose him by lot between two, and the lot fell on Matityahu (Matthias, which, by the way, is the same name as "Matthew"). Then, they were back to 12. If you add Rav Sha'ul (Paul) to the NEW Twelve, you might get 13, but he was never considered one of the Twelve (or the "Thirteen"). Now at this point in time, you can't go back and add in the traitor! That is ridiculous!
It's also important to understand that there is nothing unique about the Greek word "apostolos." It just means "one who is sent (as on a mission)." What made the Twelve unique was that they were SPECIFICALLY CHOSEN by the Master Yeshua`, while He was here in the flesh, for HIS mission! However, in truth, ANY who are so commissioned by the Master Yeshua`, whether Yeshua` is here in the flesh or not, are technically "apostoloi!" Today, we use the word "missionaries," where "missionary" means "one (who is sent) on a mission."
Now, some other points:
I think you must have started with your conclusion without identifying it as such. One can "telegraph one's punch" and state the conclusion at the beginning IF he identifies it as the conclusion and then goes back to make the case for his conclusion by listing the steps and the proofs he used to come to that conclusion. Often, it is better NOT to "telegraph one's punch" and just go through the logic that brings you ultimately--at the END of the logic--to one's conclusion.
I think what you are saying (correct me, if I am wrong) is that you believe the 7 years of Tribulation will be in 2014-2021. Am I right? If so, then I also assume that 2018-2021 would be considered by some to be the Wrath of God and of the Lamb, the last half of the 7 years, right? HOWEVER, you were not really clear about how you arrived at those dates. (I HOPE it wasn't just because the numbers 2013 and 2014 ended in 13 and 14!) Furthermore, I'm not really clear how you arrived at 2013: You see, it looks like you used a 3-1/2-year period added to TODAY'S year to come up with it, but WHY would you do that? So far, there's nothing special about THIS year! (It could BECOME special, if God chooses to do something for the prophetic time table this year, but so far nothing has happened except the on-going preparation for the End.)
Finally, the analogy drawn from Pharaoh's dreams and Yosef's interpretations and the preparation that followed is also unfounded. To throw it in at the end just tends toward confusion.
Still in and always in the Messiah's love,
Roy
< Message edited by yohannan -- 9/5/2009 2:16:07 PM >
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/5/2009 9:19:24 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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yohannon, Shalom.
You started your post #5 seeming to make sense, but then departed into a drivel of numbers that seem to belong in different equations. It is almost as if you feel you need a number, and just draw it from the most convenient location, whether it fits or not (apple added to make eleven oranges into a dozen 'oranges. That doesn't work in logicality).
I apologize. I just stood up for you, and tried to explain what I thought you were doing, in another Thread, but here you threw my understanding out with the bath water. Once, some weeks, or months, back, I believe I accosted your thought process, and it seemed, then, that you reacted with post's having rational thought.
I give up. Either your thought process is beyond my extensive imagination, or are so far out, as to be beyond Mars. Like I said, I give up.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/6/2009 12:56:37 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 324
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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Yeah, I agree. I am honestly not trying to be rude. I just simply don't understand most of what heis getting at.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/30/2009 10:14:20 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Today is Yom Kippur, as God would figure, not as man has figured
Go here to verify: www.karaite-korner.org/yom_kippur.shtml
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/30/2009 12:35:33 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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I think I know what is being done (tongue in cheek)
the placement of a lot of dots on a blackboard.
But nothing to connect the dots. LOL
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 9/30/2009 3:28:29 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3741
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I think I know what is being done (tongue in cheek)
the placement of a lot of dots on a blackboard.
But nothing to connect the dots. LOL
A rare time of agreement.
_____________________________
"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." Sarah Palin
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 10/1/2009 1:33:14 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I think I know what is being done (tongue in cheek)
the placement of a lot of dots on a blackboard.
But nothing to connect the dots. LOL
A rare time of agreement.
We'll have to mark this on our calendars............LOL
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 10/6/2009 11:38:32 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Won't last long. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 10/8/2009 11:43:39 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: yohannan For these days will be cut short is written; therefore the Lord gave us only one seven year period, instead of two.
I'm not sure of what 7yr period you are referring to?
Once Ephraim is born the 1,000 yr reign begins. Ephraim contains resurrected people as well those who remain alive and are gathered in the twinkle of an eye. They then take 7 years to cleanse the land.
Trying to combine the time-lines from Revelation doesn't work because they are parallel times as seen from the various view-points, 3 to be exact, Christ's the saved and 'the rest'.
The way 1260 days would be shortened would be to make them smaller. 3 1/2 years would become 3 1/2 days. The vials are all poured out on the same day the 1st one is started, such is the power of God. The times, times and a half in Daniel:7 is about 3 1/2 days, not 3 1/2 years.
Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
The river mentioned doesn't exist today, the valley that the river follows does not exist today. The cleansing of the land that is referenced is after His return with power and glory.
1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 10/10/2009 12:22:28 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: yohannan For these days will be cut short is written; therefore the Lord gave us only one seven year period, instead of two.
I'm not sure of what 7yr period you are referring to?
Once Ephraim is born the 1,000 yr reign begins. Ephraim contains resurrected people as well those who remain alive and are gathered in the twinkle of an eye. They then take 7 years to cleanse the land.
Trying to combine the time-lines from Revelation doesn't work because they are parallel times as seen from the various view-points, 3 to be exact, Christ's the saved and 'the rest'.
The way 1260 days would be shortened would be to make them smaller. 3 1/2 years would become 3 1/2 days. The vials are all poured out on the same day the 1st one is started, such is the power of God. The times, times and a half in Daniel:7 is about 3 1/2 days, not 3 1/2 years.
Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
The river mentioned doesn't exist today, the valley that the river follows does not exist today. The cleansing of the land that is referenced is after His return with power and glory.
1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
Sorry but like an old lion, your theory is formidable, but it has no teeth ... because it has no Scripture to back it up.
In the first place, there are significant differences between the seals, the shofars (trumpets), and the bowl judgments to conclude that they absolutely CANNOT be talking about the same events. Thus, they are not just "3 different perspectives" on the same events.
Secondly, what in the world are you talking about?!! "The river mentioned doesn't exist today?" Are you serious?! The river Yirmeyahu is talking about in these verses is the River Euphrates in Iraq and Syria! It most certainly DOES exist today as does the river's valley in which it flows. This particular prophecy is talking about Efrayim's return from Bavel and Asshur shortly after HIS time. See, context tells all. Verse 9 comes BEFORE verse 14:
Jer 31:14
14(15) This is what Adonai says:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamenting and bitter weeping.
It is Rachel weeping for her children,
refusing to be comforted for her children,
because they are no longer alive.”
CJB
This, we learn from Mattityahu's Gospel, was fulfilled when Herod slaughtered Yeshua`s contemporaries in trying to murder the one who was destined to be YHWH's Messiah, the King!
Matt 2:16-18
16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18 "A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more."
NIV
Therefore, the passage in Jer. 31:9 must come BEFORE the time of the Messiah's birth! Yirmeyahu's prophecy (at least at this point) has to do with the return of the exiles from Bavel (Babylon), Asshur (Assyria), and Persia, NOT about the future!
And, thirdly, that is NOT how the 3-1/2 years will be shortened! They wouldn't be called "a time, times and half a time," or "42 months" or "1260 days" if they were actually 3-1/2 days! Are you trying to call God a liar??!!! Be careful with your theories, my brother. Your interpretations of Scriptures absolutely MUST complement each other, not contradict each other!
The passage about the "days shall be shortened" comes from a different context, namely the Olivet Discourse of our Master on the Mount of Olives in the Gospels of Mattityahu and Yochannan Marcus:
Matt 24:16-28
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
Mark 13:14-23
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
KJV
This is talking about the persecution of the Jews BEFORE the Return of the Messiah. This includes ALL of the persecutions they have suffered since rejecting their Messiah. Thus, the shortening of the days has to do with the fact that God would not allow the extermination of His people but would see to it there were reprieves throughout history. Therefore, there were gaps when the Jews, although chased all over Europe for instance, had short periods of temporary relief--relative peace--between all the pogroms, inquisitions, crusades, and holocausts. That's how God made sure there always was a remnant. He did not shorten the duration of the Times of the Goyim (Gentiles); He simply shortened the number of days DURING that time period when they would actually suffer. Understand?
The Book of Books IS really mostly about the Israelites, not so much about us Goyim or Gentiles unless we fit into THEIR story.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: High Holy Days 18-21~~2009-2010!! - 10/10/2009 8:40:29 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Nice to hear from you Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sorry but like an old lion, your theory is formidable, but it has no teeth ... because it has no Scripture to back it up.
I already provided two, the one below donates that the slaughter of the innocents was the same event that what was given as prophecy.
M't:2:17: Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Relative point being made (to Israel) was that all children will be gathered. That's what this verse, and many others, mean when those words are used. Complete, nobody is missing.
Ro:11:26:
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Jer:31:16:
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer:31:17:
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.
The ones being gathered and helped are resurrected ones for the most part since they become alive before any living remnant are gathered (given an eternal body). The land of the enemy is death, not some foreign Gentile Nation. Many of their total number is missing all of the 1,000 years, yet they will be comforted because if God will raise the ones who were not all that obedient then they also have some hope that the ones they mourn for will also come from the land of the enemy of mankind, apart from the living.
That means a time when no sins are being committed by anybody associated with Jacob. The ones lost in that one slaughter are the ones that are mouned for and the prophetic promise being made is to 'comfort yourself with the knowledge that these slaughtered ones would regain the breath of life. It can apply to them then it can apply to all of Israel, that is what this says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
In the first place, there are significant differences between the seals, the shofars (trumpets), and the bowl judgments to conclude that they absolutely CANNOT be talking about the same events. Thus, they are not just "3 different perspectives" on the same events.
You are partly right, but one overpowering fact is that the seals and the trumps each have a point that Christ takes the Earth as part of His kingdom. Seal 6 and the 7th trump are the same events. This also is the end of the 2nd woe and the start of the 3rd woe. The last woe is all of Christ's wrath on the people, all of the vials are in that woe so none of them can be poured out before Christ is in charge. The previous two woes are Satanic in nature. The period can be determined to be 3 1/2 years for the first two woes, the last woe (all 7 vials) is poured out in one day. Those two are at times referred to tribulation (1&2) and great tribulation (3). This is what will happen to those who do not overcome certain things by the time repenting is too late (that is right at the start of the vails)
Re:2:22:
Behold,
I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation,
except they repent of their deeds.
Do you deny that these ones mentioned in the seals could not be referencing the two witnesses, they are the last two servants to ever die and they are the very first to be resurrected.?
"until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
Nor is it a stretch to not see the effects of the two woes (5th & 6th trumps) and being quite like death and hell tormenting mankind through forms of tribulation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Secondly, what in the world are you talking about?!! "The river mentioned doesn't exist today?" Are you serious?! The river Yirmeyahu is talking about in these verses is the River Euphrates in Iraq and Syria! It most certainly DOES exist today as does the river's valley in which it flows. This particular prophecy is talking about Efrayim's return from Bavel and Asshur shortly after HIS time. See, context tells all. Verse 9 comes BEFORE verse 14:
Jer 31:14
14(15) This is what Adonai says:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamenting and bitter weeping.
It is Rachel weeping for her children,
refusing to be comforted for her children,
because they are no longer alive.”
CJB
Vs:9 is the one that has the river. It flows in the valley created just when Christ arrives as King (7th trump). This is the valley that will be newly made since it does not now exist.
Zec:14:4:
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
The living river flows out of Christ's House of Prayer that exists for the 1,000 years.
Eze:47:1:
Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house;
and,
behold,
waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward:
for the forefront of the house stood toward the east,
and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house,
at the south side of the altar.
Eze:47:2:
Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward,
and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward;
and,
behold,
there ran out waters on the right side.
Eze:47:3:
And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward,
he measured a thousand cubits,
and he brought me through the waters;
the waters were to the ancles.
Eze:47:4:
Again he measured a thousand,
and brought me through the waters;
the waters were to the knees.
Again he measured a thousand,
and brought me through;
the waters were to the loins.
Eze:47:5:
Afterward he measured a thousand;
and it was a river that I could not pass over:
for the waters were risen,
waters to swim in,
a river that could not be passed over.
Eze:47:6:
And he said unto me,
Son of man,
hast thou seen this?
Then he brought me,
and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
Eze:47:7:
Now when I had returned,
behold,
at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
It goes on to describe how the Dead Sea is healed. 3,000 cubits is about 4,500ft, quite a wide river that also has a fast flow.
The river you mention is dried up as part of the vials. Since this is so close to the end of the vial the kings being referenced would have to be the surviving remnant of the Nations. The wicked are pretty much all dead by this time of the vials.
Re:16:12:
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates;
and the water thereof was dried up,
that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This, we learn from Mattityahu's Gospel, was fulfilled when Herod slaughtered Yeshua`s contemporaries in trying to murder the one who was destined to be YHWH's Messiah, the King!
Matt 2:16-18
16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18 "A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more."
NIV
Therefore, the passage in Jer. 31:9 must come BEFORE the time of the Messiah's birth! Yirmeyahu's prophecy (at least at this point) has to do with the return of the exiles from Bavel (Babylon), Asshur (Assyria), and Persia, NOT about the future!
The part from Jeremiah that is future is this. "they shall come again from the land of the enemy"
Some of that chapter is both sides of the coin, times Isreal was rejected because she was bad and times that she was gathered. Even in exile God still looked forward to the last time she would be gathered.
Jer:31:31:
Behold,
the days come,
saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah:
Jer:31:32:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them,
saith the LORD:
Jer:31:33:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days,
saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Jer:31:34:
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,
and every man his brother,
saying,
Know the LORD:
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them unto the greatest of them,
saith the LORD;
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.
Obviously some point in the future.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
And, thirdly, that is NOT how the 3-1/2 years will be shortened! They wouldn't be called "a time, times and half a time," or "42 months" or "1260 days" if they were actually 3-1/2 days! Are you trying to call God a liar??!!! Be careful with your theories, my brother. Your interpretations of Scriptures absolutely MUST complement each other, not contradict each other!
I certainly won't argue that 42 months or 1260 days is 3 1/2 years to the day. However this verse from Daniel is given before Daniel had the info about substituting things to stand for years (ch:9)so that could very well not apply to this verse. Men have the habit of not understanding God at times, that is who can be a liar.
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
The Beast from the Pit that is sent to the lake kills Christ's two witnesses. They lay in the street for 3 1/2 days and upon their resurrection the 7th trump sounds which is the start of the vials. In this case it means 3 1/2 days. The reference in Re:12 I would take to mean 3 1/2 years. In the verse below it could mean something else entirely.
Da:12:7:
And I heard the man clothed in linen,
which was upon the waters of the river,
when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time,
times,
and an half;
and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,
all these things shall be finished.
In that Da:12 gives a time of 1290 days and Da:9 says mid-week I will stick with God indicating these are separate events rather than man saying they are the same and the dates are 'close enough'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The passage about the "days shall be shortened" comes from a different context, namely the Olivet Discourse of our Master on the Mount of Olives in the Gospels of Mattityahu and Yochannan Marcus:
Matt 24:16-28
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
Mark 13:14-23
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
KJV
The days the vials take are to be kept short, any longer and all flesh would be destroyed. The abomination is the one in Daniel 12, not chapter 7.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This is talking about the persecution of the Jews BEFORE the Return of the Messiah. This includes ALL of the persecutions they have suffered since rejecting their Messiah. Thus, the shortening of the days has to do with the fact that God would not allow the extermination of His people but would see to it there were reprieves throughout history. Therefore, there were gaps when the Jews, although chased all over Europe for instance, had short periods of temporary relief--relative peace--between all the pogroms, inquisitions, crusades, and holocausts. That's how God made sure there always was a remnant. He did not shorten the duration of the Times of the Goyim (Gentiles); He simply shortened the number of days DURING that time period when they would actually suffer. Understand?
I think not, rather a general sign from the time from the end of the writing the NT and the beginning of the prophecies that are linked to Christ's return.
His people can never be exterminated. That is the whole purpose of sealing 144,000 before the trumps begin. Those are the survivors by the time the 7th trump sounds. Those not alive are resurrected.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The Book of Books IS really mostly about the Israelites, not so much about us Goyim or Gentiles unless we fit into THEIR story.
Was Adam a Gentile? Revelation has 7 letters to 7 Churches, that is a planet wide counting of people. It is your relationship to Christ that means you are alive for the 1,000 years. All of Israel will accept Christ as their Messiah, the one that gatheres them in preparation of meeting God. I've got a lot of passages that support this.
M't:23:39:
For I say unto you,
Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Christ is the one doing the resurrection of the flesh in Eze:37 andf He is the one in Eze:39 so that would seem to make you Christians to a certain extent.
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