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Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/13/2008 5:57:29 AM
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splost
Posts: 38
Joined: 1/29/2006
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Hi guys,
I just started a PT job working for a very nice man from India. He has a legitamate company that has been around over ten years, but due to the economy, he has had to severely downsize and I am the only one there. I am female.
There are a few little things I noticed and I want to know if you consider them red flags, yellow flags, or I am being a bit paranoid and it is simply a culture thing.
When I took the job, a little part of me was feeling a tad uncomfortable being the only employee there, considering that I have had people get "fresh" with me on the job in the past (old boss suggesting the two of us take a vacation, managers at fast food making innaproprate comments, etc). Although these aren't necessarly the norm of my experiences, I remember them enough to want to be cautious.
When I went into interview, the conversation was more personable then work related. He didn't ask me anything too personal, just "tell me about yourself" kind of stuff. He is single with a daughter (saw her picture in his office. She looks like she could be several years younger than me. Im 35. He looks around 55.)
Okay, here are a couple of things and I want your insight. When I got home after accepting the job, I noticed his ad on his website looking for the executive assistant position that I just filled. He stated that he wanted only female and to send a resume with a picture. The picture part seemed a bit odd, but a couple of my Christian friends didn't think that was weird.
He asked me during the interview if I had kids. Again, seemed a bit odd. Once again, my Christian friend explained he probably wanted to know if I needed to be home at a certain time.
I came to work yesterday. He was very pleasant, professional, and respectful. My job was to type things off of his computer as he verbally dictated what he wanted me to say. A few times he lightly patted my shoulders. It felt a little creepy, but he casually exused himself by saying, I hope you don't mind, our culture is really touchy feely like that. He didn't touch me innapropriately, but it was enough to make my antenna go up.
During the interview, he also mentioned that he travels on business and if I wanted to travel too, that would be okay.
He tried to call my cell phone a couple of times off the clock, but didn't leave a messge.
I don't want to be paranoid or naive. I had students in the past that were of hispanic descent and they were more "touchy feely" (not a bad thing) than my caucasion counterparts, so I want to be objective.
All these signs could go either way
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/13/2008 7:33:20 AM
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IonMoon
Posts: 918
Joined: 4/21/2005
From: The Unted State of Confusion
Status: offline
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It is actully illegal (you are in the US, right) for him to ask questions about your personal life, etc and I can't imagine he could get away with requesting only female applicants. It is HIGHLY unusual in the US for photos to be requested with a resume (unless it is modeling/acting).
Of course, other than the ad, the only way for someone to be "caught" in these cases is for someone to be asked these questions, then denied the position and then file a claim.
The proper way to find out about scheduling issues is to ask if there are scheduling issues.
I would never, personally, have accepted a position there. IMO, when someone can't keep the personal stuff out of interviews, it is a red flag to me that they will have boundary issues...
Not that it is always a bad thing or they have alterior motives... some places are very family oriented and that can have a good side... depends on a person's preference.
Tara P
_____________________________
http://www.geocities.com/hallscola67/KyliesHomemadeShopIndex.htm
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/13/2008 10:43:38 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11498
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
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Establish and keep up your boundaries.
Tell him politely you don't want to be touched - you hope he doesn't mind, but YOUR culture is to not be touched by one's coworker.
Don't answer your cell phone from him in the off hours, or tell him to only call in emergencies (of which there really shouldn't be many).
But yes, my yellow flags would've been hoisted high and flying briskly. If it's still available, I'd print off a copy of that employment ad in case you need it in the future. And document the things said in the interview (although you have written them down here, so maybe that's good) and any other discomforting behavior, in case things escalate.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/13/2008 12:02:16 PM
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NoShow
Posts: 462
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline
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Could be something, could be nothing.
I work for a consortium, in which one the people is a gentleman from India. Due to the working relation, I have also dealt with a number of his family members, who are also in business. Overall, these family members are everything from self-employed to running a major company that they founded (most people would know the company if I named it). They're also both sides of his family, his relatives and his wife's relatives. Though I'm talking about a small sampling, let's say eight people, much of what you (OP) have said, seems to be "cultural" too, based on what I have seen and experienced.
So when I say them\they, I'm referring to these men from India, that I deal\dealt with.
The personal questions: being such a small, simple environment, it's not that unusually, that he wanted someone he got along with on a personal level. Yes, that type of question is "illegal", but the reality is, the two of you would be working one-on-one with no "buffer", so it's not really strange that he wanted to make sure the two of you got along.
Only female: I could be wrong about this, as this is from my experience as described above. Indian men, seem to be more comfortable giving directions\instructions to females, than males. Call it sexist, but it seems to be their reality. So based on the working relationship (boss-employee), I can see how he would be more comfortable ahving a female assistant, more so than a male. Let me also say that I have never seen any of them, being anywhere disrespectful towards females, in fact I would say as a group, they are more polite to females (in the work environment) than their American counterparts. Once again, this is only my first hand experience.
The picture: I've heard somethings, first hand, that gave me the impression they believe\feel they can tell much about a person visually.
The touching: It's not gender specific. I've experienced the same level of touching as you've described. Even from Indian men that I've only met once before.
The traveling: I've had similar offers due to my dealings. Simply by stating that I've never had the opportunity to visit some place, has gotten me offers to go. Both with them or they sent me. Overall, they're very, very generous people.
The cellphone: They very much mix business with pleasure, in that I have been invited\included in a number of non-work related functions, that had much work related discussions. I to get calls after hours, but more often, then not, it's a request to follow up on something, during working hours.
But, keep your antenna up.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/15/2008 11:20:15 AM
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Row1
Posts: 246
Joined: 12/2/2005
Status: offline
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the picture is the over-the-line thing. everything else just adds up, although we could all explain it away.
2nd place: touching you AND noting that it is inappropriate. If he knows it is not ok, then he should avoid it. If he were clueless, he would just do it. But he is not clueless and has patted you 'a few times.'
time to find another job.
start now so when you find out your instincts are correct, you are free to walk out the door.
to the degree that this is ok by your job, you can look into company records, and see if there is evidence of there actually being more than one other employee in recent years, plus you could see how long the other "assistants" lasted before jumping ship.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/15/2008 7:06:22 PM
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acknwldgeverygdthing
Posts: 117
Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline
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Red flag RED flag.
But then again maybe the relationships at such a small business are different than when you interview and work at a bigger company.
_____________________________
Job 37:10
By the breath of God ice is given, And the broad waters are frozen.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/15/2008 7:45:03 PM
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Miss Giggles
Posts: 4270
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: MI
Status: online
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I really don't think him being Indian has anything to do with it. I live in area with a huge Indian population and they are not publicly affectionate and are usually not apart from their spouse.
It sounds weird and you should be looking for another position.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/20/2008 5:11:16 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1975
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: acknwldgeverygdthing
Red flag RED flag.
But then again maybe the relationships at such a small business are different than when you interview and work at a bigger company.
If this had happened at my company, HR would have been on him like his supposedly non-existent wife.
The touching is not appropriate. When he does it again, just say, "I'm sorry, but it's distracting when you touch me. That doesn't happen in the workplace, and I can get more done if you stop."
He knows about that boyfriend you've got- the marine who just got back from Iraq or the bouncer at that club, right?
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 8/20/2008 5:17:32 PM >
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/21/2008 10:58:33 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1549
Joined: 4/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Establish and keep up your boundaries.
Tell him politely you don't want to be touched - you hope he doesn't mind, but YOUR culture is to not be touched by one's coworker.
Don't answer your cell phone from him in the off hours, or tell him to only call in emergencies (of which there really shouldn't be many).
I agree with this. But to me, a lot of what he is doing is probably cultural based on the little that I know of this culture. In lots of countries they specify the gender and age of the people they want working for them - pictures might or might not be necessary for an application. Touching might or might not be normal for the culture. I've worked with lots of Indian men and I've never had them touch me inappropriately - but then again a lot of them were working for American companies and had been here for a while - so that might have made a difference. It is hard to tell. But, in any event the touching definitely has to stop.
Can you get some training (or do some research) on Indian customs in the workplace? Maybe something that would be supplied to a business traveler? Even if you can pick up a "Lonely Planet" travel guide (or just look at it in the bookstore or at the library) it might help you to get a better feel for his culture. This might help you to know how to interpret and deal with things like this. In fact, you might want to do a bit of research before you even approach him - or ask someone who is familiar with that culture what might be the best way to handle this situation so that he doesn't cross your boundary lines. Also, it would be helpful to him as well - if he intends to do business with Americans, it will be helpful for him to know American cultural norms so that he doesn't offend someone who isn't as willing to try to understand his culture.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/29/2008 9:12:47 PM
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OrangeTabby
Posts: 1
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgod
quote:
Establish and keep up your boundaries.
Tell him politely you don't want to be touched - you hope he doesn't mind, but YOUR culture is to not be touched by one's coworker.
Don't answer your cell phone from him in the off hours, or tell him to only call in emergencies (of which there really shouldn't be many).
Can you get some training (or do some research) on Indian customs in the workplace? Maybe something that would be supplied to a business traveler? Even if you can pick up a "Lonely Planet" travel guide (or just look at it in the bookstore or at the library) it might help you to get a better feel for his culture. This might help you to know how to interpret and deal with things like this. In fact, you might want to do a bit of research before you even approach him - or ask someone who is familiar with that culture what might be the best way to handle this situation so that he doesn't cross your boundary lines. Also, it would be helpful to him as well - if he intends to do business with Americans, it will be helpful for him to know American cultural norms so that he doesn't offend someone who isn't as willing to try to understand his culture.
No way. I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with the responses above. Whether your employer is from India, the US, or Pluto, it is NEVER acceptable to touch a subordinate of the opposite sex. Also, asking for female employees and requiring a photo should have been your first clue that this is not a good person to work for.
You need to leave the job now, before you become invested in it and it is harder to leave. If you start to overlook things, or explain them away as cultural differences, it will just become too convenient to explain away bigger things. Before you know it, you could be in way over your head.
I notice that you started this topic several days ago. Are you still working there? Has anything else happened?
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/31/2008 6:58:09 AM
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InfoCentral
Posts: 158
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline
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Sounds like nothing to me. I would try to find out why the other person left or if this is an expanded position. I would also pick up the phone next time and find out why he is calling. It just may be work related and your imagination is getting the best of you. If you find out that it really is nothing then relax, be friendly with your boss, and start to work as a team. Above all be Christian, be professional, and be personable. Being defensive and stand offish isn't going to be good for long term employment. You'll be replaced soon enough. <IXOYE><
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/31/2008 1:58:24 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16903
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Miss Giggles
I really don't think him being Indian has anything to do with it. I live in area with a huge Indian population and they are not publicly affectionate and are usually not apart from their spouse.
It sounds weird and you should be looking for another position.
I've never heard of this either. I think he's trying to get away with something he shouldn't be.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/31/2008 2:35:01 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NoShow
Could be something, could be nothing.
I work for a consortium, in which one the people is a gentleman from India. Due to the working relation, I have also dealt with a number of his family members, who are also in business. Overall, these family members are everything from self-employed to running a major company that they founded (most people would know the company if I named it). They're also both sides of his family, his relatives and his wife's relatives. Though I'm talking about a small sampling, let's say eight people, much of what you (OP) have said, seems to be "cultural" too, based on what I have seen and experienced.
So when I say them\they, I'm referring to these men from India, that I deal\dealt with.
The personal questions: being such a small, simple environment, it's not that unusually, that he wanted someone he got along with on a personal level. Yes, that type of question is "illegal", but the reality is, the two of you would be working one-on-one with no "buffer", so it's not really strange that he wanted to make sure the two of you got along.
Only female: I could be wrong about this, as this is from my experience as described above. Indian men, seem to be more comfortable giving directions\instructions to females, than males. Call it sexist, but it seems to be their reality. So based on the working relationship (boss-employee), I can see how he would be more comfortable ahving a female assistant, more so than a male. Let me also say that I have never seen any of them, being anywhere disrespectful towards females, in fact I would say as a group, they are more polite to females (in the work environment) than their American counterparts. Once again, this is only my first hand experience.
The picture: I've heard somethings, first hand, that gave me the impression they believe\feel they can tell much about a person visually.
The touching: It's not gender specific. I've experienced the same level of touching as you've described. Even from Indian men that I've only met once before.
The traveling: I've had similar offers due to my dealings. Simply by stating that I've never had the opportunity to visit some place, has gotten me offers to go. Both with them or they sent me. Overall, they're very, very generous people.
The cellphone: They very much mix business with pleasure, in that I have been invited\included in a number of non-work related functions, that had much work related discussions. I to get calls after hours, but more often, then not, it's a request to follow up on something, during working hours.
But, keep your antenna up.
I pretty much agree.
It could be something, could be nothing. I've known employers like this and nothing shady was going on, but if you feel uncomfortable, can you change jobs? People have different perceptions, and yes, cultures do play a role sometimes. Even different parts of India have different ways of doing things. (I know Hispanic people come from a culture that deals more with touch and less personal space, etc.) I can't say he's attempting to do something wrong when that, in reality, may be what he knows. I do think if you told him, he should respect your wishes or you should just leave. Some employers want to be the way they are.
From what you described, I think I'd be fine with it, but not everyone would be. I'd probably try to find a new job... requesting him to stop might backfire in some way.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/31/2008 9:37:37 PM
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mommyto1
Posts: 28
Status: offline
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Did I correctly understand that you are this company's ONLY employee? If there are fewer than 13 employees, none of the US employment law (except unemployment and workers' comp) apply in this situation. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 plus its numerous amendments apply only to employers of 13 or more.
I'd still run the other way. Just recently, a client of my company has asked me to lunch several times and I've successfully dodged most of the time. The last time he asked, I finally had to say, "I don't go to lunch with men who aren't relatives. You never know who will see you and what they will think." He was shocked. Now, this is a man who lost his job partially because of a "rumored" affair on the job. You'd think he'd know better. But like this man in the case, people sometimes are just stupid.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 8/31/2008 9:40:17 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16903
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mommyto1
Did I correctly understand that you are this company's ONLY employee? If there are fewer than 13 employees, none of the US employment law (except unemployment and workers' comp) apply in this situation. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 plus its numerous amendments apply only to employers of 13 or more.
Sexual harassment laws apply regardless.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 9/1/2008 11:08:19 PM
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InfoCentral
Posts: 158
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline
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I was reading my book Church is a Team Sport when the beginning of one of the paragraphs hit me as being pertinent to this discussion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Church is a Team Sport
The devil helps us assign motives to others that likely don't exist, and fear keeps us from learning the truth.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 9/2/2008 4:57:11 PM
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BlueAdept
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
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First; if something he is doing makes you uncomfortable you need to tell him. Make sure that he understands. While he may have no bad intentions, you can not count on that.
Second; and I know this may cause some outrage, but based on your post I think it needs to be said. Are you doing something that is encouraging these come ons? Some women do not realize how they act and what they say/do/wear encourages men to step over the "professional" line. Notice I did not say MAKES men, they step over on their own. I only ask this question since you have stated this is not the first time you have been in this situation. Yes there are pig-headed men that wouldn't see a stop sign if you hit them in the head with it, but I can not tell from your post if that was the case or not. Please, please understand I am NOT trying to accuse you, but I do want to encourage you to examine your own actions to be sure you are not contributing to the problem. I know very few men that would risk their jobs for a trist with a female subordinate, but if they thought the feelings they have are mutual they are much bolder.
Lastly, if it continues after you have requested he stop, you need to find a new job.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 9/2/2008 6:23:55 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16903
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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No outrage, but this also needs to be said.
The very idea of saying, "Well she was coming on to me" makes my blood boil. And I know that's not what you're saying. But there is nothing that can justify this kind of behavior. Nothing. If I (as a man) made a statement or did something that made a female coworker uncomfortable and she says stop, my legal responsibility is to stop. The same applies to this man whether he has one employee or a thousand. Communication is the key. First tell him it makes you uncomfortable and you'd rather he stop. Anything after that is sexual harassment or even worse it could be sexual assault.
Know your rights AND your responsibilities here.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 9/3/2008 5:55:30 PM
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BlueAdept
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
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I want to make sure that everyone understands. I was NOT saying she had this coming. I am asking a question. Is there something that you are doing that is encouraging this reaction? Some women do not realize that they are in effect flirting with the men around them. Those women can find themselves in situations that are much like the poster has indicated in the past.
I liken it to how my grandma treated my dad. She would tell him verbally he was being bad, but in a tone that told him he really didn't need to stop. So which is it; stop or continue? And she wondered why he was so encouragable.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 9/5/2008 12:04:49 AM
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mommyto1
Posts: 28
Status: offline
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Excuse me, but sexual harassment is discrimination based on sex, according to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. On the EEOC's website, this is the quote:
Sexual Harassment
Sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination that violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title VII applies to employers with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. It also applies to employment agencies and to labor organizations, as well as to the federal government.
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RE: Honest Opinions Please. Trying to Discern - 9/5/2008 12:01:55 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
Is there something that you are doing that is encouraging this reaction? Some women do not realize that they are in effect flirting with the men around them.
Don't think the OP would have posed the question in the 1st place....I seriously doubt that 'some women' do not realize they are flirting with the
men around them. Some women love that kind of attention...doesn't seem to be the OP does or she would not be asking.
But since you are asking, does not sound like a healthy situation to me.
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