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Humbleness and Acceptance - 7/12/2008 4:19:33 PM
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CrimsonMoon
Posts: 24
Joined: 6/17/2005
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
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My question is based on the understanding that salvation is a 2-step process:
1) -- a humble heart that knows and admits that he has sinned and that no amount of good deeds can ever outwiegh the bad and make one worthy to stand in the presence of God or enter heaven
2) -- accept that belief in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can make one acceptable to God, that takes away thier sin, and allows them to enter heaven.
So, my question is:
If a person never heard of Judaism or Christianity, and looked around at creation and realized there must be a Creator and that he was part of the Creator’s creation, who realized that he was not only morally accountable to his Creator, but that he fell short of his Creator's standard, and thus lived as morally as he could, although knowing that he would never measure up.
Now, using the analogy of the person who stands before God and God asks “Why should I let you in?” Most people will say "because I didn’t murder anyone", "because you are forgiving", "because I went to church", "because I did all these good things," but the Christian will say, "because I accepted the death of Jesus as the payment for my sins".
But this man answers, “You should not let me in. I am not worthy.”
Do you believe it is against scripture if God said: “You are correct, you are not worthy. However, my Son made a sacrifice on your behalf. Do you accept it?”
Could this man be "saved" based on what knowledge he did have, (the knowledge that God puts in every man's heart) NOT becuase he lived morally but becuase he was humble, contrite, and acknowldged that he fell short of God's standard? (Based on his lack of knowledge for the second step of salvation, he could neither accept nor reject Christ)
_____________________________
"Be ready always to give a defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope within you" -- Rabbi Cephus, 63 AD
My Blog: Nightmares and Dreamscapes
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RE: Humbleness and Acceptance - 7/13/2008 10:20:52 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 891
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
My question is based on the understanding that salvation is a 2-step process:
1) -- a humble heart that knows and admits that he has sinned and that no amount of good deeds can ever outwiegh the bad and make one worthy to stand in the presence of God or enter heaven
2) -- accept that belief in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can make one acceptable to God, that takes away thier sin, and allows them to enter heaven.
So, my question is:
If a person never heard of Judaism or Christianity, and looked around at creation and realized there must be a Creator and that he was part of the Creator’s creation, who realized that he was not only morally accountable to his Creator, but that he fell short of his Creator's standard, and thus lived as morally as he could, although knowing that he would never measure up.
Now, using the analogy of the person who stands before God and God asks “Why should I let you in?” Most people will say "because I didn’t murder anyone", "because you are forgiving", "because I went to church", "because I did all these good things," but the Christian will say, "because I accepted the death of Jesus as the payment for my sins".
But this man answers, “You should not let me in. I am not worthy.”
Do you believe it is against scripture if God said: “You are correct, you are not worthy. However, my Son made a sacrifice on your behalf. Do you accept it?”
Could this man be "saved" based on what knowledge he did have, (the knowledge that God puts in every man's heart) NOT becuase he lived morally but becuase he was humble, contrite, and acknowldged that he fell short of God's standard? (Based on his lack of knowledge for the second step of salvation, he could neither accept nor reject Christ)
Your premise is off, so everything that comes after is off. We are not saved by accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross, we are not saved by accepting anything that Christ did, we are saved one way and one way only...by accepting Christ Himself.
The only thing that saves us is being indwelt by the living, resurrected Christ Himself. Salvation is the receiving of life, and that life is in Christ. This is the only solution to mans problem, which is that he is dead.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 7/13/2008 10:52:18 AM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Humbleness and Acceptance - 7/13/2008 11:42:46 AM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
My question is based on the understanding that salvation is a 2-step process:
1) -- a humble heart that knows and admits that he has sinned and that no amount of good deeds can ever outwiegh the bad and make one worthy to stand in the presence of God or enter heaven
2) -- accept that belief in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can make one acceptable to God, that takes away thier sin, and allows them to enter heaven.
So, my question is:
If a person never heard of Judaism or Christianity, and looked around at creation and realized there must be a Creator and that he was part of the Creator’s creation, who realized that he was not only morally accountable to his Creator, but that he fell short of his Creator's standard, and thus lived as morally as he could, although knowing that he would never measure up.
Now, using the analogy of the person who stands before God and God asks “Why should I let you in?” Most people will say "because I didn’t murder anyone", "because you are forgiving", "because I went to church", "because I did all these good things," but the Christian will say, "because I accepted the death of Jesus as the payment for my sins".
But this man answers, “You should not let me in. I am not worthy.”
Do you believe it is against scripture if God said: “You are correct, you are not worthy. However, my Son made a sacrifice on your behalf. Do you accept it?”
Could this man be "saved" based on what knowledge he did have, (the knowledge that God puts in every man's heart) NOT becuase he lived morally but becuase he was humble, contrite, and acknowldged that he fell short of God's standard? (Based on his lack of knowledge for the second step of salvation, he could neither accept nor reject Christ)
I did not know there were steps to salvation, unless we break down the word and come up with our own theologies. Oh wait we all have.
I think you said it best here when you wrote. I AM NOT WORTHY. None of us are, no matter how righteous we might think we are, or are getting.
God knows the heart of everyone, God is pure, perfect, good, and merciful. God will make the right judgement on everyone God judges. From what I read in the word is you beleive or you do not!
Yes anyone can be saved at the judgement of God. For he can do anything he wants to.
What did John the baptised say, God can turn these rocks into israelites, as he was talking to the pharisees.
Show me works worthy of repentance.
God saved the thief on the cross next to him the one that believed. ( no works worthy of repentance, he just believed) He was not taken off the cross and baptised, told to confess, sprinkled or any man made tradition, put upon him.
He simply from his heart believed and was saved.
From the scenario you gave, sounds as if he believed from his heart
loveineffable
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RE: Humbleness and Acceptance - 7/13/2008 3:35:59 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1070
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
Could this man be "saved" based on what knowledge he did have, (the knowledge that God puts in every man's heart) NOT becuase he lived morally but becuase he was humble, contrite, and acknowldged that he fell short of God's standard? Based on the information you've given, I'd say that God would save Him. On the other hand I also think that God would make sure He knew about Jesus before he stood before Him in judgment.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Humbleness and Acceptance - 7/13/2008 10:40:01 PM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
My question is based on the understanding that salvation is a 2-step process:
1) -- a humble heart that knows and admits that he has sinned and that no amount of good deeds can ever outwiegh the bad and make one worthy to stand in the presence of God or enter heaven
2) -- accept that belief in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can make one acceptable to God, that takes away thier sin, and allows them to enter heaven.
So, my question is:
If a person never heard of Judaism or Christianity, and looked around at creation and realized there must be a Creator and that he was part of the Creator’s creation, who realized that he was not only morally accountable to his Creator, but that he fell short of his Creator's standard, and thus lived as morally as he could, although knowing that he would never measure up.
Now, using the analogy of the person who stands before God and God asks “Why should I let you in?” Most people will say "because I didn’t murder anyone", "because you are forgiving", "because I went to church", "because I did all these good things," but the Christian will say, "because I accepted the death of Jesus as the payment for my sins".
But this man answers, “You should not let me in. I am not worthy.”
Do you believe it is against scripture if God said: “You are correct, you are not worthy. However, my Son made a sacrifice on your behalf. Do you accept it?”
Could this man be "saved" based on what knowledge he did have, (the knowledge that God puts in every man's heart) NOT becuase he lived morally but becuase he was humble, contrite, and acknowldged that he fell short of God's standard? (Based on his lack of knowledge for the second step of salvation, he could neither accept nor reject Christ)
That is why we need missionaries to reach the ends of the earth because many are perishing in their sins. No matter how much knowledge you learn in nature or in your own conscience, there will be no salvation apart from the knowledge of Jesus.
Romans 10:How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
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RE: Humbleness and Acceptance - 7/16/2008 2:14:27 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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The Bible says that anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Humbleness and Acceptance - 7/17/2008 11:31:08 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 38
Joined: 6/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
My question is based on the understanding that salvation is a 2-step process:
1) -- a humble heart that knows and admits that he has sinned and that no amount of good deeds can ever outwiegh the bad and make one worthy to stand in the presence of God or enter heaven
2) -- accept that belief in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can make one acceptable to God, that takes away thier sin, and allows them to enter heaven.
So, my question is:
If a person never heard of Judaism or Christianity, and looked around at creation and realized there must be a Creator and that he was part of the Creator’s creation, who realized that he was not only morally accountable to his Creator, but that he fell short of his Creator's standard, and thus lived as morally as he could, although knowing that he would never measure up.
Now, using the analogy of the person who stands before God and God asks “Why should I let you in?” Most people will say "because I didn’t murder anyone", "because you are forgiving", "because I went to church", "because I did all these good things," but the Christian will say, "because I accepted the death of Jesus as the payment for my sins".
But this man answers, “You should not let me in. I am not worthy.”
Do you believe it is against scripture if God said: “You are correct, you are not worthy. However, my Son made a sacrifice on your behalf. Do you accept it?”
Could this man be "saved" based on what knowledge he did have, (the knowledge that God puts in every man's heart) NOT becuase he lived morally but becuase he was humble, contrite, and acknowldged that he fell short of God's standard? (Based on his lack of knowledge for the second step of salvation, he could neither accept nor reject Christ)
I believe this man would be condemned based on his own words. He would be held accountable for what little light he did have, and judged accordingly, but in the end, I think God would have to agree with the truth as stated.
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