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I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 12:40:50 PM
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Danhartleyministries
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I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 1:18:09 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 313
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I have a serious issue with there being no hell, for if that were the case, I would be duty bound to dish out justice in the here and now. But God restrains me saying vengence is His.
Nevertheless, to those who reject God, He says, thy will be done. Here they can then do nothing for with out God the are lost. To grant them their desire to be eternally seperated from God is grace unlimited and the total destruction of their souls just bad tempered. The fact that they will eternally regret their decision is a lesson to all and one they I am sure would their loved ones learn.
Hell is a place where men will have desires and no way of fulfilling them for they have rejected the only one who can fulfill their needs. To grant a quick and eternal death would be unfair considering the pain and suffering they have inflicted on others. Would it not be better that they all had to live the lives of those they persecuted?
No punishment would only provoke evil men. Would you also favour capital punishment in our prison systems?
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 1:31:11 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 2214
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus.
His children all go to heaven, Dan - it's the people who reject God's antidote for sin that die in it. Those people are God's creation but not His children.
Because of Adam's sin, we all became sinners. We all have evil hearts that want to be our own god (note the small g). God loved us so much He became a Man down in the filth with us, and voluntarily died of torture on a cross to buy us back out of the slave market of sin. We all deserve to go to hell. God said we don't have to but can accept his rescue by the blood of Christ.
People don't have to take God's rescue - they can insist on DIY and go to hell if they want to.
You could say God killed Himself trying to make a way for people to go to heaven, but He doesn't force us to go there.
The only way to heaven is through Christ's death and resurrection. This has been a main doctrine of mainstream Christianity since 33 AD. It was foretold before then, but not many people got it. The whole sacrificial system of the Old Testament was a foreshadowing of this - Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God that takes away the sin of others. Substitutionary redemption is what it's all about.
quote:
Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Will you take the opinion of the Church fathers who hashed out these subjects in the first few centuries of the Church? They had to deal with all kinds of heresy that was springing up, and they made the Creeds to teach people the truth. These guys are the conduit of mainstream Christianity today. The second death is God's rejection at the White Throne of Judgement of these who rejected God in their earthly life, and those poor people have resurrection bodies that will exist, conscious and suffering, forever apart from God in hell. Rev. 2:11; 20:6; 20:14; 21:8. It's their choice to reject God's help and salvation.
There are religious organizations that have roots in mainstream Christianity but returned to that heresy that denies Christ is fully Man and fully God*. They're about 1500 years out of date; it was settled over a thousand years ago by the Church leaders and scholars (look up Athanasius on a legitimate website, not Wikipedia).
That Jesus is fully Man and fully God is part of the ABCs of Christianity. If this were not true, then no person could be saved and going to heaven.
*Oddly enough, this heresy was "reborn" by a man who wanted to prove that hell didn't exist. In order to twist Scripture to say this, he also had to deny that Jesus was God Almighty. If Jesus isn't God, then He wasn't perfect and His death didn't save anyone, and we're all going to hell.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 1:32:00 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1119
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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And very well you should be Dan. 'Death' as scripture defines it isn't mere physical existence and conscientiousness rather death eternally is the absence of God's influence and obedience in a personal experience.'Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.'(Revelation 20:14,15) Mankind is created eternally 'once for all to good works(obedience)' not destruction. God 'changeth not'(Psalms 15:4).'Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year after year with blood that is not his own; for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself.'(Hebrews 9:25,26)
< Message edited by LCannon -- 3/7/2009 1:43:33 PM >
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 1:44:05 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6724
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus.
Well then you do not serve the God of Abrahan, Isacc, and Jacob; Father God that gave His son that whosoever believes on the Father through the Son might be saved.
Scripture teaches that only those who are Christians (Believe in the Father through the Son) are Children of God.
So He is not destroyong His Children; only His creation that rebelled against Him and loved thier sin more than they loved the light;
(Joh 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 1:52:31 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus.
You have a profound misunderstanding of God and His Gospel. The children of God are those who have believed the Gospel and been saved from eternal Hell. It is the children of wrath, the children of disobedience, and the children of the devil who face eternal torment in the Lake of fire.
quote:
Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive.
There is nothing new in this belief. There are many others who teach "annihilation". Satan would love to have everyone believe this, since it is so deceptive.
quote:
The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Death is fundamentally separation. The first death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. The second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.
In the end, it is not our opinions that matter, but what the Word of God reveals. If Scripture reveals eternal life in the New Jerusalem, it also reveals eternal separation in the Lake of Fire. This is God's universe and God's revelation.
Hell was created for the devil and his angels, and God is not willing that any should perish (go to Hell) but that all should come to repentance. Since that is true, there is no reason for anyone to go to Hell. The only reason they will be there is because they have rejected the Gospel and rejected the Savior.
As to calling God "vicious" and "tormenting" you might want to ask yourself if you have the right as a creature to sit in judgment over the Creator, who is not only all-wise, but who is perfectly holy and righteous and cannot stand the sight of sin. It is Satan who is the real culprit and who caused mankind to disobey God so that they would face eternal Hell.
But God made a provision for mankind through the gift of His Son. And that's the real issue.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 2:10:00 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
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From: S/W Nebraska
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Dan, Shalom.
Welcome to the Forum. After reading your post, I thank God you came, as something has shaken your faith that, IMO, Satan has dug a deep wound into your heart. I guess, but you have been in ministry how long, 18, 19, years now? Having no idea what caused you to say what you did, none of us can help you address your concern.
Every person here, is willing to be of whatever assistance we can be, but you need to share, some context, so we have a project to use our 'tool' on. Ignore the 'knee-jerk' reactions. They come from someone slapping them in the face without notice nor reason. Help us help you. I now go into standby mode, until you push your 'share' button.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and healing. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 5:56:36 PM
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galadriel2
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I think we have a problem with hell existing because we don't understand how holy God is, how worthy of our obedience, and how bad sin is. We also forget to consider that we are eternal beings stealing from another eternal being that we will have to pay back some day what we owe him. Death, in the Bible, doesn't mean ceasing to exist. It means separation. When we die our spirit and soul separate from our body. When the Bible talks about in Ephesians chapter two how all unbelievers are 'dead in trespasses and sin' Paul isn't talking about them not existing. God isn't vicious. He is holy and just - perfectly so. Man is vicious. We tend to project ourselves onto God and think that He is like us.
God bless,
Galadriel
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 6:08:07 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello Danhartleyministries
I personally do not worry about Hell, even though I believe there is one. I prepere to concentrate on those good things that the Lord does through believers. I've seen many changed lives because people have been set free of Satan's bondage.
Now as to the subject of Hell, scripture says that in God there is no darkness at all. So, the reverse of that is darkness, right? I think our best course is to walk in the light. Then, we're home frre.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 6:38:11 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
I have put in bold an incorrect assumption on your part. Those that have not accepted Christ are not God's children. They are His creation, but they are not His children until they accept Christ.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 6:56:00 PM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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I think the worst part about Hell is going to be the complete separation from the living God.
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"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/7/2009 7:04:37 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5282
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From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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Dan - you're a pastor??
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/9/2009 6:16:08 PM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
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wow-----
hell is an awful place--- and finally it too will be thrown into the lake of fire.
i had real problems with hell too--- i was mad at God about it.
i have seen visions of hell back in the day and have read books by folks who reportedly spent time there.
it might help to read rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(pardon the NIV)
it does not say all of 'em---just those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book---
at the risk of sounding like a heretic---
if all those in Christ are in the first resurection, ( and they are)and the rest of the dead are not up until after the thousand years---- who escapes the second death?
because if all were thrown in at the last day---it would just say all...
some contend that we are written in the book of life at birth--- there is a psalm that might argue such---as david asks that his enemy's mother be blotted out of the book---( she would have to be in befor she could be blotted out, eh?)
you should talk this over with God.
Hell is a heavy--- i agree---
there is much to do and we are still piddling around with these things----
yikes!
pray for the lost!
for those who will comment that only those in Christ will escape the second death---- if this is so----are you doing enough to reach the lost?
are you "going into all the world"?
i ask only to challenge you to step up more--- and even more--- time is short---
He comes soon...
and yes---there is a hell---and yes---it is VERY bad--- and then--
the fire.
LOVE!
gibbin<><
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/9/2009 8:11:49 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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gibbin, Shalom.
I Love You. You are trying to say the same as I try to say, but the words seem to fall on the deaf, most of the time. Of course, do not quit, as I keep trying (mostly). I just divorced myself from a thread, where,IMO, no-one could hear what I see as simple math. I will drop that part, as I didn't start typing to complain.
You speak well, my friend. The time is so very short, and yet, it seems, we cannot see the storm on the horizon. Storm clouds never before seen, are roiling into a Judgment no person could, in all sanity, wish to see, nor endure. IMO, Seal Nr 5 is being broken as I type. We may well find out what life is like, hungry, in this country. Oooops, there I go again.
Nuff-said. Thanks for your words. Keep the watch. Shout from the roof-tops, 'Our redemption draws nigh.' The anger of god is at the boiling point.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and strength. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/10/2009 4:23:31 PM
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frankman
Posts: 240
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN
Dan, welcome to the forums. Taking your above statement, let`s compare it with Scripture and see what the Scriptures really teach us. In Rev.19:20 we meet two characters who received their one-way ticket into the place we call eternal hell. "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Now according to your humble opinion it should be the end of these two characters. (that is where their spirit is destroyed for all eternity, not torturing for eternity.) If this is true the beast and the false prophet are gone and should never be heard from again.
Now fast-forward with me for about a thousand years. In Rev.20:10 Mr Devil is also given his one-way ticket to the place we call eternal hell.  Now a thousand years later, who does the devil meet up with there? "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET HAD BEEN THROWN. They will be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER."
According to the above verses hell is forever a place of eternal torment, memory, suffering and separation from God and His rescue plan. That is why others have already posted that we must assure ourselves that we will never have to worry about going there. John 5:24 states "I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." If we believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savoir, we`re heaven bound, and hell will never have to be our worry.  However, woe to those who choose the other paths that lead only to eternal hell. A just God could do no other. Sin must be punished with eternal punishment for the unbeliever. That`s just how bad sin is in the eyes of a holy God.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/10/2009 4:35:38 PM
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raivyne
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God is loving, but He is also just. Hell is real. If it wasn't, He wouldn't have told us it was.
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I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/10/2009 5:54:18 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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I have serious issues with the concept of one-post-gones.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 4:38:59 AM
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awepro
Posts: 80
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I have serious concerns about Christians who think they can't picture God being judgmental with those who don't believe. It's just absurd. God said very clearly black and white what will happen to those who don't accept His love of sacrifice. He so much loved and loves the world that He gave His only Son to take up all of the sin of mankind. We don't need any more proof about this amazing, unending and unfailing love. It says all. But He also warned about what happens to those who don't repent and accept Jesus. He means what He says and He's serious about it.
Hell is a real place preserved for the wicked, including the unbelievers. Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. Those who don't repent and accept Jesus are separated from God for eternity and go to Hell for never ending torments. Forever. We don't want to face the reality of Hell, but it is a real place. The topic is like taboo for some but we can't behave like ostriches ignoring reality. Those who go to Hell are not destroyed, they are kept "alive" so they can experience the horrifying circumstances just as if they were alive on earth with their actual physical bodies.
Brother, read the Bible carefully, it is The Truth. Everything it says about Heaven and Hell is true too. And yes, God still loves His creatures beyond imagination.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 1:12:40 PM
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RustyCarr
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Being a realist working on what I see around me, I simply leave to God what happens to the dead. The debate about "ceasing to exist" or "torment forever" is, in my mind a distraction. It distracts from what God says we ought to be doing now while we have control over our choices and conduct.
I see spiritual things, which I define as definitions of words that describe spiritual things. I see the definition of greed, and of hate. Likewise, I see God's definition of love and "Love your neighbor" with the Truth of God's definitions of virtue and justice. Being a realist, I try to conduct myself, here and now, in a way that serves and pleases God's and His definitions of virtue, etc.
I see plainly that mankind is quite capable of creating "hell" here, now, and in the future. This is the "hell" that I try to avoid. It produces painfully bad memories. Thank God for His forgiveness, I can now turn away from things that cause myself and others to suffer. I have found God's Truth and his definitions of spiritually good things, and I have placed them within my heart. I have the kingdom of heaven within me. If I have friends who have the kingdom of heaven within them, then we will have the kingdom of heaven "among" us. We will have a church. A refuge against hell on earth, and a light for the lost.
So, why worry about what happens when we die? It is simply beyond our control. We will have to let God do with us what He wants to do with us when we die. But, the Bible gives me a great hope for a future resurrection, that is if I do my best here and now, while I have control of my choices and my actions. To me, it is simple common sense. Are we "raising them up in the way they should go?" Are we going and making desciples of all the nations? And teaching them to obey all that He commanded? Are we giving our loved ones the hope of a bright and glorious future, now, and in a future resurrection?
I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. I will stand firm on the Truth. I will love the lost by speaking the Truth, even if it offends them. I will love my loved ones the way God would have me love them. I will run the race and wait to see what happens after I die. What? Me worry? No. I trust my God and Savior!
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 2:03:04 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2729
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RustyCarr
Being a realist working on what I see around me, I simply leave to God what happens to the dead. The debate about "ceasing to exist" or "torment forever" is, in my mind a distraction. It distracts from what God says we ought to be doing now while we have control over our choices and conduct.
Part of what we ought to be doing now is preaching the Gospel messages, which includes hell.
How can we preach the Gospel if he have no idea what hell is?
_____________________________
rawr.ben
Facebook
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 2:36:38 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2777
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RustyCarr
Being a realist working on what I see around me, I simply leave to God what happens to the dead. The debate about "ceasing to exist" or "torment forever" is, in my mind a distraction. It distracts from what God says we ought to be doing now while we have control over our choices and conduct.
I see spiritual things, which I define as definitions of words that describe spiritual things. I see the definition of greed, and of hate. Likewise, I see God's definition of love and "Love your neighbor" with the Truth of God's definitions of virtue and justice. Being a realist, I try to conduct myself, here and now, in a way that serves and pleases God's and His definitions of virtue, etc.
I see plainly that mankind is quite capable of creating "hell" here, now, and in the future. This is the "hell" that I try to avoid. It produces painfully bad memories. Thank God for His forgiveness, I can now turn away from things that cause myself and others to suffer. I have found God's Truth and his definitions of spiritually good things, and I have placed them within my heart. I have the kingdom of heaven within me. If I have friends who have the kingdom of heaven within them, then we will have the kingdom of heaven "among" us. We will have a church. A refuge against hell on earth, and a light for the lost.
So, why worry about what happens when we die? It is simply beyond our control. We will have to let God do with us what He wants to do with us when we die. But, the Bible gives me a great hope for a future resurrection, that is if I do my best here and now, while I have control of my choices and my actions. To me, it is simple common sense. Are we "raising them up in the way they should go?" Are we going and making desciples of all the nations? And teaching them to obey all that He commanded? Are we giving our loved ones the hope of a bright and glorious future, now, and in a future resurrection?
I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. I will stand firm on the Truth. I will love the lost by speaking the Truth, even if it offends them. I will love my loved ones the way God would have me love them. I will run the race and wait to see what happens after I die. What? Me worry? No. I trust my God and Savior!
May I introduce you to one of the greatest sermons of all times. Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
Too many today fail to grasp just who God is. They fail to grasp just how much He hates sin. I'm guilty.
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Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 3:31:57 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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I have said it before, and I say it again: Pastor John Hagee has a saying that is worthy of a PHD, when he states that God would not say to us: "Let's make a deal.' No, he would say: "This IS the deal."
Any person on earth has the right to make the choice of acceptance, or rejection, and we all know the ramifications of both choices.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and right-choice. Arley
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In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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