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I just don't understand... - 9/19/2009 11:47:53 PM
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cherish405
Posts: 32150
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From: The Land Down Under
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This could be put in books or movies, but seeing as I spend time here, I thought this the better place to put it.
Firstly, I want to say that I don't want this to become a spiritual (or other) debate, or a place where people point fingers at each other. Conflict is not the point of this thread. It's just a place to try and help me understand.
I see people have been reading or watching the 'Harry Potter' movies/books, 'The Golden Compass', 'Twilight' and the like.
These movies/books contain magic, sorcery, witchcraft and the like. The bible very clearly states that we should stay away from those things. Why then are we watching/reading them?
It's a personal choice of mine not to watch/read these kinds of things. I was involved in the occult and new age before I became a Christian. Maybe God has given me extra grace in that particular area to not watch/read those things.
I'm not pointing my finger at anybody or thinking that those who watch/read those things are going to burn in hell for doing it. I just don't understand why people would, knowing that scripture says that we are to stay away from those things, continue to watch/read them.  
As I've said, I don't want this to be a nasty debate or to create conflict. I just want to try to understand.
< Message edited by cherish405 -- 9/20/2009 12:11:19 AM >
_____________________________
From this time forth, with the powers vested in me, this post serves as public notice of the issuance of one unrevocable lisence to cherish405 to have special dispensation in the matter of drive-by huggings as she sees fit. ~rayofson~
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/20/2009 8:51:54 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1057
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Trish,
I've never been involved in the occult and have never had the slightest interest in it. It doesn't tempt me in the slightest, and I'm sure it never will. Certainly, anyone who has should stay as far away as possible from anything that might tempt a relapse.
I do, however, enjoy fantasy fiction. From folk tales, through the worlds epic poetry, to modern fantasy these stories create a sense of wonder that I enjoy and, at their best, strike chords of resonance within my heart.
The fact is that I do not see any connection between the actual practice of witchcraft and the fantasy fiction.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/20/2009 8:58:57 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
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quote:
These movies/books contain magic, sorcery, witchcraft and the like. The bible very clearly states that we should stay away from those things. Why then are we watching/reading them? It seems to me that Paul described this situation well in 1 Cor 3:1 - "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ." A lot of Christians need to grow up and stop acting like the world!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/20/2009 9:05:39 PM
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dubc419
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I second 9drtr. I am not at all interested in witchcraft or anything. For me, this fantasy fiction is just that: fantasy. It's imagination. It's a world different from ours with different rules, and therefore different stories can come up. By events happening in other worlds, it gives us more insight into our own world.
Nobody in any of these books is connected with Satan or demons or getting help from Satan or demons. If anything, the evil in the books is represented as evil, just as there is evil in our own world that does come from Satan. But the evil in the books/movies is always opposed by good.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/21/2009 12:34:44 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I see people have been reading or watching the 'Harry Potter' movies/books, 'The Golden Compass', 'Twilight' and the like.
These movies/books contain magic, sorcery, witchcraft and the like. The bible very clearly states that we should stay away from those things. Why then are we watching/reading them?
What do you read/watch? Give some specific examples. If I know where you're coming from, it could help facilitate discussion.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/21/2009 4:01:59 AM
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bondserv65
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cherish405
quote:
These movies/books contain magic, sorcery, witchcraft and the like. The bible very clearly states that we should stay away from those things. Why then are we watching/reading them?
i do not watch or read these books/movies, more because i am not interested in watching them than because i think there is anything inherently evil about them. i am not sure the answer to this can be understood. i have been trying for years to understand. Cherish405, i cannot say that you are one of these people but i have noticed a pattern. Many christians who condemn the watching of Harry Potter, The Golden Compass and the like are the first in front of the TV when the Wizard of Oz comes on. It's a classic , you know. These same people who condemn Harry Potter, let their children stare at the Disney Channel while Mickey Mouse does his sorcery thing at each break in the shows. While condemning more "secular" oriented movies/books, they are running to the theater or book store to get their hands on the newest of the "Narnia" series. Perhaps some do the Harry Potter/ Golden Compass thing because they are resigned to the fact that it is inescapable?
And one thing to remember about sorcery and witchcraft and the like; there is strong evidence Solomon and Joseph both got caught up in it. If they can get caught up in it, any of us is susceptible as well.
We will know them by their fruits, but fruit ripens in season and at any given time, we only see a season in any given person's life.
< Message edited by bondserv65 -- 9/21/2009 4:09:25 AM >
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/21/2009 12:12:45 PM
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cherish405
Posts: 32150
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I was asked what kind of books I like to read. I like historical fiction. People crossing the prairies to make a better life for themselves. Canada around the time the Mounties began. The 1920's Great Depression. Early life in England/Ireland etc. Classics like Jane Eyre etc.
I have been known some years ago to read some of Frank Peretti's books like 'This Present Darkness' and 'Piercing The Darkness'. Those books nowadays would give me nightmares. I'm more sensitive to those kinds of books these days. I've read a couple of the 'Narnia' books, but am not in a hurry to read more. As to watching the 'Narnia' movies, just the ads give me nightmares!
I wouldn't watch 'The Wizard Of Oz' or 'Mary Poppins' or even Mickey Mouse doing anything like wizardry in a break. Personally, that kind of thing gives me cold shivers.
I think there are possibly some fantasy books that aren't necessarily God vs the enemy, angels vs demons. I don't think that ALL fantasy books are bad and of the devil etc. I just don't understand why people choose to read/watch things with overt magic, wizardry etc in it.
_____________________________
From this time forth, with the powers vested in me, this post serves as public notice of the issuance of one unrevocable lisence to cherish405 to have special dispensation in the matter of drive-by huggings as she sees fit. ~rayofson~
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/21/2009 1:12:55 PM
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everjoyful
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cherish405
I was asked what kind of books I like to read. I like historical fiction. People crossing the prairies to make a better life for themselves. Canada around the time the Mounties began. The 1920's Great Depression. Early life in England/Ireland etc. Classics like Jane Eyre etc.
I have been known some years ago to read some of Frank Peretti's books like 'This Present Darkness' and 'Piercing The Darkness'. Those books nowadays would give me nightmares. I'm more sensitive to those kinds of books these days. I've read a couple of the 'Narnia' books, but am not in a hurry to read more. As to watching the 'Narnia' movies, just the ads give me nightmares!
I wouldn't watch 'The Wizard Of Oz' or 'Mary Poppins' or even Mickey Mouse doing anything like wizardry in a break. Personally, that kind of thing gives me cold shivers.
I think there are possibly some fantasy books that aren't necessarily God vs the enemy, angels vs demons. I don't think that ALL fantasy books are bad and of the devil etc. I just don't understand why people choose to read/watch things with overt magic, wizardry etc in it.
There is magic in Narnia.And a magician in book one. In the lion the witch and the wardrobe there is an evil witch and a hoof footed character. lucy carries around a potion in a bottle around her neck to heal people. There are many other instances of magic in it. Used as metaphors to help express good over evil.
Jane eyre you have cited as innocent reading-- however having studied this at degree level I could draw your attention to the blatant racism and seeming endorsement of colonialism. Or to the subordination of women who aren't white middle class. Maybe to the scene where rochester pretends to be a fortune telling gypsy! The fact that Jane is prone to outbursts of rage etc etc. for what it's worth when the book was published it was banned from some librarys and condemned by many churches and respectable christians due to Jane not being content with her God given social position.
Not always as clear as things seem.
Magic in obvious forms and wizards are not the only bad things in books from a biblical point of view. sexual immorality, greed,hatred, violence, extra marital sex, revenge etc etc Classic novels have been amongst some of the most shocking books I have read.
I avoid potter purely because I do have an occult past and find too much of the magic to be based on existing magical practices but....I have to be more careful than most, I haven't seen any children turn to wicca because of potter. I also am aware that JK is a christian and attends church in Scotland and has stated that she was using magic in the same way as Lewis and Tolkein. She's quite upset about the outrage as I understand it.
I believe that fantasy can use the extraordinary to explore the everyday in a way that many realist novels can not due to cultural contexts etc.
For instance fantasy and dream scenes etc had to be used extensively to portray womens strength or anger as these would have been unnaceptable in a real life setting.
If a book endorsed Satan or evil or discredited the crucifixion or blasphemed God then I would be right with you telling folks to stay away.
I'm afraid potter is like rock metal....people are outraged because it's out there enough to grab folks attention so people assume it's evilness and go at it...meanwhile kids are reading "innocent" books about teenage sex or listening to mainstream pop with gentle harmonies that degrade women.
Of course their is value in your message to stay away from the appearence from evil and I reccomend it to but sometimes the true evils are not always in the most obviouse places.
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/22/2009 12:45:12 PM
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RogerBennett_Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dubc419
Nobody in any of these books is connected with Satan or demons or getting help from Satan or demons. If anything, the evil in the books is represented as evil, just as there is evil in our own world that does come from Satan. But the evil in the books/movies is always opposed by good.
I see it as this: if there is someone doing witchcraft in a movie/book they are "connected" with Satan or demons. Why do I say this? Here's why, the Word of God tells us to stay away from witchcraft because it is NOT OF HIM. Now tell me, if something is NOT of God then there is only one other thing it can be of - the Devil.
For myself personally, since the Bible says this, I do not read Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or any books that I know have witchcraft as the main theme of the book. I do read Lewis's Narnia, and as someone said it does have a witch in book one. But the witch is not the main character as opposed to the books of Harry Potter where the whole point of the series is centered around witchcraft. In fact, in The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe, the witch dies at the end because she is evil.
_____________________________
"Let's be known for what we do believe in rather than what we don't." - Roger Bennett
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/22/2009 6:39:23 PM
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dubc419
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quote:
For myself personally, since the Bible says this, I do not read Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or any books that I know have witchcraft as the main theme of the book. Well, first of all, the main theme of both Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings is not witchcraft. It is not about witchcraft or wizardry, or the devil, or anything of the sort. Since I know LotR very well, I'll go ahead and tell you that one of the main themes is good v. evil, in addition to love, friendship, sacrifice, etc. It's not a "how to" book to get people to study Wicca. And in case you didn't know, in both LotR and Harry Potter, the bad guys, Sauron and Voldemort, do die in the end because they are evil. So that puts it on the same level as the Chronicles of Narnia. Perfectly fine and not ungodly.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/22/2009 11:10:27 PM
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E_Lin
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quote:
But the witch is not the main character as opposed to the books of Harry Potter where the whole point of the series is centered around witchcraft.
I apologize if this sounds untoward, as I do not intend it to be, but as you admittedly have not and will not read the Harry Potter books, how can you know what the point of the series is? In truth, the series is about friendship, personal sacrifice, and being willing to do what is right (even though it is more difficult) because it is important to stand against that which is evil. The whole "magic" thing is nothing more than a plot device, used for telling the story. There is nothing in the books which would encourage any child to take up wicca or whatever. The only encouragement there could be would be an influence to be brave in the face of your fears, and stand up for what is right. And I fail to see what is wrong with that.
As for The Lord of the Rings, the use of magic in it is so insignificant you can often wonder if it is even there. For the most part, the use of it in any case is discouraged, for mortals are often swayed and enslaved by its power. Which goes to show it's not such a good thing after all, according to the story. But once again, I must point out, plot device.
_____________________________
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom? Quite astonishing..."
- Death (from the book "Hogfather" by Terry Pratchett)
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 3:50:25 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
The whole "magic" thing is nothing more than a plot device, used for telling the story. There is nothing in the books which would encourage any child to take up wicca or whatever. The only encouragement there could be would be an influence to be brave in the face of your fears, and stand up for what is right. And I fail to see what is wrong with that.
As for The Lord of the Rings, the use of magic in it is so insignificant you can often wonder if it is even there. For the most part, the use of it in any case is discouraged, for mortals are often swayed and enslaved by its power. Which goes to show it's not such a good thing after all, according to the story. But once again, I must point out, plot device.
I believe you have graciously provided a strong, clear answer to the question raised in the original post.
Jesus Himself used fiction, and was a master of the short-short story form. Yet, there is at least one denomination that forbids its members to use or read fiction, since "if it's not truth, then it's a lie. And those who love and make lies are destined to inhabit the lake of fire."
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 8:19:26 AM
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neuronstatic
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It is interesting to note that in nearly all Scriptural reference to magic, sorcery, astrology, divination, fortune telling, the occult, and soothsaying, there is generally wisdom from God revealed to His people that these things are false and we are not to be fooled by them, or some similar exhortation/pronouncement. God says such that practice these things are deceivers.
The Scriptures put absolutely no credibility in magic.
What the Scriptures have listed as real danger and concern is the matter of people consulting spirits, the dead, and demons. These things are presented as really happening and really bad. But the whole magic thing is just not happening. This leads me to a simple conclusion.
There is no such thing as magic.
So for me, as I read the Scriptures, I am commanded not to practice detestable things. And let me tell you, I have no desire to go summoning demons or the dead... that is simply not on my to-do list. And since their is no such thing as magic, that did not make the list of things to do today either.
The "magic" presented in popular fiction (science fiction, fantasy, childrens' stories) is simply the use and manipulation of an alternate reality. Specifically in the case of Harry Potter, their magic does not come from spirits or demons, it is part of the physics of their world. Or in a classical sense, its like "Christmas magic" that allows a fat man in a red suit to come splooging down your chimney once a year.
As for "magic" in Lord of the Rings, there is so little "magic" depicted or referenced relative to the entire work, that it is hard to even see. Along that same line of magic use are many other epics: Beowulf, Jason and the Argonauts, the Iliad, and the Odyssey.
So for me, I have no such delusions that waving a wand or muttering an incantation will manipulate some arcane stream of universal power. Or in modern fantasy, waving my hand and using the force Jedi style.
Each person must decide for themselves where they draw the line on any issue and count it as sin for themselves. This includes all things such as reading fiction, drinking alcohol, eating meat, practicing "soothsaying" of the end-times, or any other course of human endeavor that some will engage in and others find detestable.
_____________________________
Click here for an example of God blessing a man with a second chance at marriage in a new wife.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 10:10:10 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 324
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: E_Lin
The whole "magic" thing is nothing more than a plot device, used for telling the story.
I am sorry, I know this may sound crude. But isn't that about the same as saying I want to use a bunch of naked women and/or men having gay and/or strait sex in my movie, because the plot is about good vs. evil? I mean, after all, the plot is what is important, right?
I know that you may say this example is a little extreme, but we live in an extreme world where extreme things go on, and people are easily deceived. God's people, or those who call themselves God's people, are being deceived by the enemy into believing many different things are okay, when they are not. But Jesus said that those who are His KNOW HIS VOICE, and they follow Him! We cannot ignore the Scriptures, brothers and sisters. We cannot pick some books, chapters, or verses out of the Bible and use them to the exclusion of all the others to make some theological point, or to try and justify our sin. Yes, we have been freed from the curse of the Law, but not one jot or tittle will pass away from it!
We HAVE to abandon all that is evil. The Scriptures say that we MUST purify ourselves. Call me legalistic, whatever you will, but the Scriptures clearly say what they say, and they clearly mean what they mean.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 10:12:51 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2344
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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cherish405,
First, I want to make it clear that I respect your conviction to abstain from fantasy-style fiction. I'm not trying to convince you to run out and by the seven Potter books.
Second, thanks for answering my question.
quote:
I was asked what kind of books I like to read. I like historical fiction. People crossing the prairies to make a better life for themselves. Canada around the time the Mounties began. The 1920's Great Depression. Early life in England/Ireland etc. Classics like Jane Eyre etc.
Do any of the characters in these books lie? Cheat? Steal? Strike others in anger?
Roger_BennettFan
quote:
I see it as this: if there is someone doing witchcraft in a movie/book they are "connected" with Satan or demons.
quote:
I do read Lewis's Narnia, and as someone said it does have a witch in book one.
So Narnia is connected with Satan or demons?
quote:
In fact, in The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe, the witch dies at the end because she is evil.
Do you recall what Aslan attributed his resurrection to?
tsnody2001,
quote:
We cannot ignore the Scriptures, brothers and sisters. We cannot pick some books, chapters, or verses out of the Bible and use them to the exclusion of all the others to make some theological point, or to try and justify our sin. Yes, we have been freed from the curse of the Law, but not one jot or tittle will pass away from it!
Then please cite Scripture that condemns reading fantasy literature.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 10:36:54 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 324
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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MrFribbles,
quote:
Then please cite Scripture that condemns reading fantasy literature.
I didn't say anything about condemning fantasy literature. There is fantasy literature out there that does not use the following things to move the plot along. I am talking about witchcraft, sorcery, magic, etc.. I don't think you need me to quote the Scriptures that condemn these things. I am sure you can flip open your Bible and find where these things are condemned pretty quickly without my help.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 10:41:30 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
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quote:
I am sure you can flip open your Bible and find where these things are condemned pretty quickly without my help. Is reading a fictional story which includes fictional characters involved in fictional witchcraft the same as personally participating in satanic arts?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 10:41:42 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I didn't say anything about condemning fantasy literature. There is fantasy literature out there that does not use the following things to move the plot along. I am talking about witchcraft, sorcery, magic, etc.. I don't think you need me to quote the Scriptures that condemn these things. I am sure you can flip open your Bible and find where these things are condemned pretty quickly without my help.
Who here is advocating using witchcraft, sorcery and/or magic?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 11:15:42 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 324
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From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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Wow. I am just going to withraw from this discussion, because it really is fruitless. I should have never entered into it in the first place. The Lord bless all of you.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 12:03:51 PM
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cherish405
Posts: 32150
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: The Land Down Under
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
cherish405,
First, I want to make it clear that I respect your conviction to abstain from fantasy-style fiction. I'm not trying to convince you to run out and by the seven Potter books.
Second, thanks for answering my question.
quote:
I was asked what kind of books I like to read. I like historical fiction. People crossing the prairies to make a better life for themselves. Canada around the time the Mounties began. The 1920's Great Depression. Early life in England/Ireland etc. Classics like Jane Eyre etc.
Do any of the characters in these books lie? Cheat? Steal? Strike others in anger?
In some of the books, yes. They are qualities that I don't condone.
Perhaps I was wrong to start this thread. I did not want people fighting about who's right and wrong and using it as a theological debate. That was never my intention. We are called to be Christlike. Please let us treat each other as Christ would treat others.
_____________________________
From this time forth, with the powers vested in me, this post serves as public notice of the issuance of one unrevocable lisence to cherish405 to have special dispensation in the matter of drive-by huggings as she sees fit. ~rayofson~
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I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 12:20:41 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10816
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I don't read the books mentioned in the OP because they aren't my cup of tea.
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 12:46:56 PM
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uncabeeil
Posts: 4942
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Joisey. Got a problem wit dat?
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quote:
Perhaps I was wrong to start this thread. If you didn't somebody else would have, so don't feel bad about it. As to the arguments, you know as well as I that any thread in any folder on this forum can, and usually does, turn into an argument of some sort. When people start taking one verse out of the Bible and decide to use it to back their personal opinion, somebody else is going to take another verse to back up their totally opposing opinion. And then it usually spirals downhill into a "You're wrong/no, you're wrong" tirade. Sad, but true.
_____________________________
"It don't do to fight with God cuz He always wins.
He bloodies your nose and then gives you a ride home on his bike"
Rich Mullins
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 12:47:27 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
We are called to be Christlike. Please let us treat each other as Christ would treat others. Indeed, and Jesus had some very strong things to say about legalism. So why should we not question the nature of alleged ungodly actions such as reading fiction about witchcraft versus participating in witchcraft?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 1:30:11 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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tsnody2001,
quote:
Wow. I am just going to withraw from this discussion, because it really is fruitless. I should have never entered into it in the first place. The Lord bless all of you.
While I certainly respect your decision, I am a bit confused by it. Did you find my questions argumentative?
cherish405,
quote:
In some of the books, yes. They are qualities that I don't condone.
I should hope not, since Scripture does not either. : ) However, you still choose to read works of fiction in which characters take part in them. Can you elaborate on why you object to reading/watching works of fiction in which characters practice magic, but do not object to reading/watching works of fiction in which characters lie, cheat, steal, etc.?
quote:
I did not want people fighting about who's right and wrong and using it as a theological debate.
Personally, I don't see anything on this thread as a debate. It's people asking questions and providing opinions. It honestly does not seem in the least bit heated. But then, that could just be my impression.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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lol. just kidding. you get out what you put into it. if someone is walking into a harry potter movie thinking this is real, well, i think they need to walk into a straight jacket. point being, its a fantasy. fantasy itself means not real or something like that. 
