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Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/28/2008 4:56:01 PM
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Jhud
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There was an interesting column by Dennis Prager called Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn awhile back (didn't hear about it until recently).
In it he makes this point among others:
Some might argue that anonymity enables people to more freely express their thoughts. But this is not true. Anonymity only enables people to more freely express their feelings. Anonymity values feelings over thought, and immediate expression over thoughtful reflection.
There is not one good reason for any website, left or right, or non-political, to allow people to avoid identifying themselves. Anyone interested in serious political discourse, or in merely lowering the hate levels in our country, should welcome the banning of anonymous postings.
It would be interesting to find out how many websites continue to encourage anonymous postings. Presumably, they would pay some financial price by insisting on posters identifying themselves. I don't know why, and I don't know how big a price that would be, but it is hard to imagine that it is higher than the price society pays when hate, anger and irrationality become the normal way of citizens expressing themselves. And even from the websites' own perspectives this policy is probably self-defeating. I doubt I am alone in reading fewer and fewer comments sections because of the low level of so many of the postings. Just as bad money chases away good money, moronic postings chase away intelligent ones. I have come to the point where I even read fewer comments posted about my own columns.
With some security issues in mind, I personally try to be as open as I can about who I am and where I am coming from, but I find that many on discussion forums (particularly in the threads where I usually post) do not.
I am wondering, do others agree that anonymity tends to lead to anger and irrationality in discussions, and would identifying oneself lead to less of the same?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/28/2008 7:56:10 PM
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sjd2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am wondering, do others agree that anonymity tends to lead to anger and irrationality in discussions, and would identifying oneself lead to less of the same?
I don't believe that anonymity on the Internet has caused bad public discourse. Listening to most talk radio (conservative or liberal) is a course in bad public discourse. And they are well known.
Bad public discourse and ad hominen attacks are not caused by anonymity. If that were the case our political discourse would be 1000 percent better. We have become a society that relishes fighting and name calling. I believe the degeneration of our ability to talk intelligently about our problems stems from what we idolize in the mass media. Our idols are people who love to make their illogic and lack of intelliigence known.
My posting anonymously doesn't really change what I write.
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/28/2008 8:01:57 PM
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mvic
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I suppose in reality there is no true anonimity. You may use a nom-de-plume for your posting; but the moderators of this and other Forums really know who you are - and even the IP address of your computer.
As Ps103 rightly says: there are people out there who might not like what you say. Hence anonimity provides you with a little protection.
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/28/2008 8:15:36 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
Anonymity only enables people to more freely express their feelings. Anonymity values feelings over thought, and immediate expression over thoughtful reflection.
Is that anonymity or is it a reflection of the culture? We seem to have a culture that feely expresses feelings and not a lot of real thought. The current political campaign is good example of this. People are drawn to certain candidates because of how he or she makes them feel. Ask them to articulate why they support that person and becomes rather apparent that there is not a lot of thought into the reasoning for support of that candidate.
As for anonymous posting on the web, this forum in particular does a fairly decent job of promoting thoughtful discussion. I've belonged to some secular forums where disussion on events could have been good, fruitful, but far too many people are more concerned with airing their feelings than actually discussing an issue or articulating why they beleve what they do.
I use a username on this site and others because of my occupation. At the same time, I am keenly aware that anonymity can be misleading. It's not terribly difficult to find out who someone is if one is willing to put the effort into finding a person. I fail to see how the author of this study linked anonymity in posting thoughts and opinions to the dangers of online porn.
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Never make someone else a priority while you remain an option!
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/28/2008 8:17:44 PM
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earthless
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Being someone that has been posting on Internet message boards for over 12 years now - have been the recipient of a half dozen real death threats because of posts made on a message board (not this one) - had my identity discovered once because of a ministry - had packages of gore-porn smeared with human feces delivered to my office - had my tires slashed - and several other things all because of some people's rabid and very real hatred towards Jesus and the Bible.
Whew...
Having said all of that, I would hate to have to lose some form of anonymity when posting.
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/28/2008 8:29:20 PM
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tracydolls
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Yes, I agree. I dont want eveyone to know. I have met actual friends on the net. In person.
I used to have a stalker on the net, his user name was"devilsadvocate"
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Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/29/2008 12:49:08 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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No, I do not think that Internet anonymity is destructive in any way, nor do I think that anonymity on the radio, in the car, or on the phone is destructive. What is in the heart is what is destructive.
I am who I am whether on the Internet, on the radio, in the car, or on the phone, because my actions follow the intent of my heart, and these outside elementws cannot change what is.
If I am sullen, impatient, angry, vindictive, cruel, etc. in my heart, this will come out -- if not immediately, eventually. But as in my case, if my desire is to be respectful, decent, "nice," loving, etc., these will show themselves in most cases in all these circumstances as I grow into what I or G-d desires me to be.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/29/2008 5:17:45 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
AoibhinnGrainne
I think anonymity can foster a culture of deceitfulness in that those posting on a Forum can become whomever they wish to become.
Is it the anonymity of the net or the heart of the person using the net? It seems we have this tendency to blame the instrument rather than to look in the mirror for the root of problems. Sorta like guns. POliticians and policy makers would rather restrict the instrument than address the people who use the instrument for negative purposes.
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Never make someone else a priority while you remain an option!
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/29/2008 6:22:13 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Is it the anonymity of the net or the heart of the person using the net? It seems we have this tendency to blame the instrument rather than to look in the mirror for the root of problems. Sorta like guns. POliticians and policy makers would rather restrict the instrument than address the people who use the instrument for negative purposes.
Yes, but how would we, "address the people who use the instrument for negative purposes" if those people are often anonymous?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/29/2008 7:25:05 PM
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zamdad
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POint taken. I think it depends on site administrators to monitor poor conduct. This site does a pretty good job. We've had some posers get through and post things that get pretty scary. As I said in a previous post. It's not terribly difficult to find someone hiding behind an alias. It takes some effort, bot the majority of people want to be known.
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Never make someone else a priority while you remain an option!
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/29/2008 9:10:09 PM
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henny
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I would never want to use my real name. Not because I want to snipe and take cheap shots, but more because I don't want my real name and personal information floating around out there for everyone to see (or misuse, or track me down and stalk me, etc, etc). Especially on forums were discussion gets heated, or where people discuss contentious issues like politics and morality.
Also, I don't know about anyone else's posting habits, but I'll often find myself taking positions that I don't necessarily hold myself just to see where the argument will lead me, or playing the devils advocate, or working through ideas that I am still in the process of thinking through, etc, etc, -when I post on here. I think if we weren't anonymous we wouldn't have that freedom and we would feel greater pressure to take a stance and defend it. We'd all become "mini-politicians" and in that sense, I actually think things could become even more contentious if there wasn't a level of anonymity. Not only would we have less freedom of expression in posting, but we'd also have less freedom (I think) to just "walk away" when we become bored or frustrated with something -just because we'd have the added burden of feeling the need to "defend our name." It would stop being a "fun" pass time and become a chore.
Plus there's just the simple fact of having a certain amount of privacy in conversation about certain topics. For example, I don't want my boss or family members or someone I know who might disagree with me politically finding out my opinions on certain very contentious matters (politics, religion, sex, morality, etc) and then holding them against me. In real life you just can't talk about a lot of the stuff that we talk about on here to just anyone. Which is part of the good thing about anonymity. In real life you can only talk about certain topics to certain people who you know well enough, whereas the internet opens up your options more and allows you to converse with a larger variety of people.
But I think it all comes down to forum moderation. If people want to raise the level of discourse this can be done through more restrictive moderation on any forum. Removing anonymity isn't necessary if the moderation is done right. One of the reasons why I bother coming to these forums at all is that they are moderated more strictly than other forums, so there aren't as many "flame" posts and spam, etc.
< Message edited by henny -- 4/29/2008 9:19:11 PM >
_____________________________
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH; their blood will be on their own heads -Leviticus 20:13
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/29/2008 9:41:59 PM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Yes, but how would we, "address the people who use the instrument for negative purposes" if those people are often anonymous?
Easy.
Ban them.
The mods do it all the time on these forums, and I think the forum as a whole is better for it.
Some people already take the act of posting on these forums WAY too seriously (i.e. for some it seems to be a second career) -forgetting that at the end of the day there's really nothing at stake. Taking anonymity away would only make things way worse.
I actually think the forum might be better if we would remind people more often that they are anonymous and that there is really nothing at stake other than having a good time. I think this would allow people to be a bit more open and creative in their posts, and to try seeing things from a variety of different angles, as oppossed to taking just one tired position (ID or evolution, for example) and rehashing the same old arguments over and over. No one will ever "win" a debate on the internet, it's just the nature of how things work. If everyone stopped thinking of things as a debate that they are invested in and have to "win" (or short of that, at least get the last word), and view things instead as an open discussion, I think things would be a lot more interesting and fun.
< Message edited by henny -- 4/29/2008 9:58:29 PM >
_____________________________
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH; their blood will be on their own heads -Leviticus 20:13
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/29/2008 9:58:47 PM
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CropDuster
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I can relate to the viewpoint of the author of the OP's opening article. Internet anonymity can indeed engender tremendous literary irresponsibility. Over the years, I've triumphed in a rather intense fight to stop myself from venting online. I came to recognize doing so as not only unproductive, but self-destructive. Each hostile exchange bludgeoned my spirit, and weakened me as a Christian servant. I now pretend as though I am actually addressing people in person when I post, adjusting my message and the means by which I deliver it, accordingly. I view it as yet one more exercise in Christian discipline.
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 12:31:51 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
henny
I would never want to use my real name. Not because I want to snipe and take cheap shots, but more because I don't want my real name and personal information floating around out there for everyone to see (or misuse, or track me down and stalk me, etc, etc). Especially on forums were discussion gets heated, or where people discuss contentious issues like politics and morality.
Also, I don't know about anyone else's posting habits, but I'll often find myself taking positions that I don't necessarily hold myself just to see where the argument will lead me, or playing the devils advocate, or working through ideas that I am still in the process of thinking through, etc, etc, -when I post on here. I think if we weren't anonymous we wouldn't have that freedom and we would feel greater pressure to take a stance and defend it. We'd all become "mini-politicians" and in that sense, I actually think things could become even more contentious if there wasn't a level of anonymity. Not only would we have less freedom of expression in posting, but we'd also have less freedom (I think) to just "walk away" when we become bored or frustrated with something -just because we'd have the added burden of feeling the need to "defend our name." It would stop being a "fun" pass time and become a chore.
Plus there's just the simple fact of having a certain amount of privacy in conversation about certain topics. For example, I don't want my boss or family members or someone I know who might disagree with me politically finding out my opinions on certain very contentious matters (politics, religion, sex, morality, etc) and then holding them against me. In real life you just can't talk about a lot of the stuff that we talk about on here to just anyone. Which is part of the good thing about anonymity. In real life you can only talk about certain topics to certain people who you know well enough, whereas the internet opens up your options more and allows you to converse with a larger variety of people.
But I think it all comes down to forum moderation. If people want to raise the level of discourse this can be done through more restrictive moderation on any forum. Removing anonymity isn't necessary if the moderation is done right. One of the reasons why I bother coming to these forums at all is that they are moderated more strictly than other forums, so there aren't as many "flame" posts and spam, etc.
< Message edited by henny -- 4/29/2008 9:19:11 PM >
Wow! I think this is the first time I've been in complete agreement with Henny!
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Never make someone else a priority while you remain an option!
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 1:16:54 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Also, I don't know about anyone else's posting habits, but I'll often find myself taking positions that I don't necessarily hold myself just to see where the argument will lead me, or playing the devils advocate, or working through ideas that I am still in the process of thinking through, etc, etc, -when I post on here. I think if we weren't anonymous we wouldn't have that freedom and we would feel greater pressure to take a stance and defend it. We'd all become "mini-politicians" and in that sense, I actually think things could become even more contentious if there wasn't a level of anonymity. Not only would we have less freedom of expression in posting, but we'd also have less freedom (I think) to just "walk away" when we become bored or frustrated with something -just because we'd have the added burden of feeling the need to "defend our name." It would stop being a "fun" pass time and become a chore.
Plus there's just the simple fact of having a certain amount of privacy in conversation about certain topics. For example, I don't want my boss or family members or someone I know who might disagree with me politically finding out my opinions on certain very contentious matters (politics, religion, sex, morality, etc) and then holding them against me. In real life you just can't talk about a lot of the stuff that we talk about on here to just anyone. Which is part of the good thing about anonymity. In real life you can only talk about certain topics to certain people who you know well enough, whereas the internet opens up your options more and allows you to converse with a larger variety of people.
Actually this seems to be a tacit agreement with Pragers main point; you would do here what you woudn't do in real life because of your anonymity.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 2:28:07 AM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually this seems to be a tacit agreement with Pragers main point; you would do here what you woudn't do in real life because of your anonymity.
I don't agree at all with his main point, which is "internet anonymity is as destructive as porn."
I do, however, agree with his point that people will act differently when anonymous. But as I said in my above posts, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing, nor do I think that anonymity is always bad for discussion (especially when it comes to this forum in particular).
Anonymity on the internet can be bad for discussion in certain situations (and the biggest problems I see is in the forums that aren't moderated at all, as they tend to degenerate into flaming pretty quickly), but I think lack of anonymity can be equally bad (for the reasons stated above). As I said before, I think it's an issue of moderation in the end.
_____________________________
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH; their blood will be on their own heads -Leviticus 20:13
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 2:45:29 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I do, however, agree with his point that people will act differently when anonymous. But as I said in my above posts, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing, nor do I think that anonymity is always bad for discussion (especially when it comes to this forum in particular).
Well let's assume anonymity isn't always bad; as you agree people will do anonymously what they won't do when their identity is known, what condition would a person who wishes to do something bad most likely operate under, and why?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 2:57:40 AM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
what condition would a person who wishes to do something bad most likely operate under, and why?
Anonymity.
But that doesn't mean that anonymity is all bad, nor does it mean that lack of anonymity is the only way to create a higher level of discussion, nor does it mean that it will always result in a higher level of discussion.
< Message edited by henny -- 4/30/2008 3:09:48 AM >
_____________________________
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH; their blood will be on their own heads -Leviticus 20:13
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 3:18:41 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Anonymity.
But that doesn't mean that anonymity is all bad, nor does it mean that lack of anonymity is the only way to create a higher level of discussion, nor does it mean that it will always result in a higher level of discussion.
Well, of course a lack of anonymity isn't going to neccesarily result in a higher level of discussion; if it did, Congress would cease to exist.
But as we both agree those who desire to do what is wrong are more likely to desire anonymity, it would follow that they would be more attracted to those places (like much of the internet) that allows for such anonymity, would it not?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 4:32:41 AM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
But as we both agree those who desire to do what is wrong are more likely to desire anonymity, it would follow that they would be more attracted to those places (like much of the internet) that allows for such anonymity, would it not?
Yes.
But again, that doesn't mean much in the end, as it's nothing effective moderation can't take care of. If you have a problem with someone there's nothing preventing you from reporting them or merely choosing not to talk to them (there's no rule that states we have to respond to everyone that disagrees with us).
quote:
Well, of course a lack of anonymity isn't going to neccesarily result in a higher level of discussion; if it did, Congress would cease to exist.
Which is precisely my point I made above about it turning everyone into "mini-politicians." I really don't think the level of discourse would increase much at all, while the "freedom" of discourse would decrease dramatically (which would be a bad thing). We'd just become an internet version of Congress. I agree that it might decrease the surface level of absolute flaming and stuff like that (although there's really not a lot of that on this forum anyway), but I think the negatives would out weigh the positives.
< Message edited by henny -- 4/30/2008 5:02:06 AM >
_____________________________
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH; their blood will be on their own heads -Leviticus 20:13
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 5:17:14 AM
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Real_Solitude
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That depends on the level on anonymity. If using the internet required me to disclose my real name, age, residence, etc... I wouldn't post on forums. Heck, I wouldn't use 90% of the internet. It would become purely a research tool, not one of entertainment. If a simple Google search for my name could turn up every post I've ever posted, I (and I presume many other people), would be barred from various types of employment.
I, for instance, could hypothetically be banned from holding public office in this state of Texas for my lack of belief in a supreme being.
I don't like pure anonymity, however. I like websites that require login to post. Having a username gives you a stake in that site. You have a base attachment to your username, and how people view that name. Some people might not care if their handle is slandered, but majority of people seem to attach themselves to their online handels to a deep enough extent to care how people respond to their name. They like others to like them, just as in real life.
There are only two real differences between internet communication and real-life communication, that I can see. The first is that here is no (or severely reduced) possibility of physical harm. In an internet conversation you can truly destroy someone's ideas without fear of physical harm. You can agree or disagree with someone as much as you feel psychologically comfortable with. This does allow trolls and flamers, but that's worth, to me, the second benefit.
The second difference is that, if you so choose, you can be judged completely by your ideas. You can be judged without ageist, sexist, or racial prejudice being laid on you before you even speak. You become an entity of thought, rather than a physical person with pre-conceived notions attached to those physical aspects.
Personally, I prefer anonymity. I find it informative with people mis-guess my gender, or age. I prefer to be judged on the quality and eloquence of my ideas.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
But as we both agree those who desire to do what is wrong are more likely to desire anonymity, it would follow that they would be more attracted to those places (like much of the internet) that allows for such anonymity, would it not?
That may be, but seeing as (from random Google statistic) 73% of Americans use the internet, normal people are obviously also drawn to the internet. The internet may serve as a refuge of those wishing to remain anonymous for negative reasons, but they have to find a place among the millions of people who seek the entertainment and fellowship of the net. It would be my guess that people who intentionally seek harm through anonymity are a minority.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: Internet Anonymity Is as Destructive as Internet Porn - 4/30/2008 5:25:30 AM
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tracydolls
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I like the fact that I can say stuff without my family knowing. i think this would be the appeal of a pyschatrist. this is less expensive and more benefits.
I get to learn, that's why I'm here,
I get to "express' my feelings, I don't always "express" them as I should.
i get to ask questions, and sometimes I get pretty good answers, solves ?'s I had for along time
I get to laugh or cry and no one is asking why are you....... they don't usually know when I do it.
I get listen to my gospel music while I'm doing, no one is screaming in my ear like face to face debates can get.
And I'm not screaming, hurting my soul.
I like this forum, I like "fellowshipping"with other Christians. Any other forum/group pales in comparision. i've tried alot of them. My sister got a pc in 1995, can it get addicting, YES.
the other debater cannot escape what they said, that is so important in any debate,
it's like food, good for us, when used moderately, and healthy
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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