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Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 3:10:51 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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The purpose of this thread is to examine the idea that a Gentile can actually become a Jew. This was an important discussion in the Apostolic Scriptures of the First Century. Let's see what we know about it today.
I hope that we can come to a deeper understanding of underlying issues in many of the Apostolic Writings through a better understanding of this important controversy.
Let me be the first to answer my own question. I do not believe that a Gentile can become a Jew. I don't believe that the Bible supports such an idea.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 3:22:23 PM
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faithfulservant_
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The answer is NO. But I think you are missing the point. The scripture says that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, because we are all one in Christ. So there is no need to create any division.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 3:46:11 PM
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1love1God1way
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You don't think that one can deny Christ as the Messiah and pick up following the Torah and Jewish Law?
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-Ben-
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 4:04:00 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
The answer is NO. But I think you are missing the point. The scripture says that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, because we are all one in Christ. So there is no need to create any division.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
Paul is emphasising our oneness in Messiah, but he is not saying that a Jew stops being a Jew anymore than a man stops being a man.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 4:07:09 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
You don't think that one can deny Christ as the Messiah and pick up following the Torah and Jewish Law?
Is this question addressed to me? I presume that it is.
You're asking me whether a Gentile can start following Orthodox Judaism (which denies Yeshua benYosef as Messiah)? They sure can. But, does that make them Jewish according to the Torah? No. Are they Jewish according to the Oral Law (Jewish Law)? Yes.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 4:44:49 PM
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faithfulservant_
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quote:
original: 1love1God1way
You don't think that one can deny Christ as the Messiah and pick up following the Torah and Jewish Law?
Jewish identity is a subjective state of perceiving oneself as a Jew in respect to ones religion or ethnicity. Therefore, a Jewish identity can be classified as either religious or descendent. There are 2 types of Judaism: Religious Judaism (Orthodox) and Ethnic Judaism (Jewish ancestry).
Therefore, a gentile can convert to Orthodox Judaism but they cannot convert to Ethnic Judaism. So if the OP was referring to Orthodox Jew, then the answer is yes. If the OP was referring to Ethnic Jew, the answer is obviously no.
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 4:53:30 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
quote:
original: 1love1God1way
You don't think that one can deny Christ as the Messiah and pick up following the Torah and Jewish Law?
Jewish identity is a subjective state of perceiving oneself as a Jew in respect to ones religion or ethnicity. Therefore, a Jewish identity can be classified as either religious or descendent. There are 2 types of Judaism: Religious Judaism (Orthodox) and Ethnic Judaism (Jewish ancestry).
Therefore, a gentile can convert to Orthodox Judaism but they cannot convert to Ethnic Judaism. So if the OP was referring to Orthodox Jew, then the answer is yes. If the OP was referring to Ethnic Jew, the answer is obviously no.
Judaism teaches something different. The Rabbis believe that once a Gentile goes through a ritual conversion to Judaism he actually becomes a Jew. This ritual of becoming a proselyte involves circumcision, a donation (a sacrifice in Temple times), basic instruction in the Torah, and a mikvah (immersion, or baptism). It is taught by the Sages that once the Gentile comes up out of the waters of the mikvah that he is no longer a Gentile, but a Jew. They use an extreme example to illustrate their point. They say that the man could not marry his sister before the mikvah because she was his sister and that is against Torah (Leviticus 18). However, once he comes up out of the mikvah he is a Jew and no longer her brother. So, he could then marry her. This is, of course, pure hogwash.
This is also the false teaching that Paul was repeatedly fighting against.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 5:24:52 PM
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faithfulservant_
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Now I am confused. I took a Religious Studies course in college. My professor said there was a Orthodox Jew and Ethnic Jew. These were 2 different people and catagory. Was this inaccurate?
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 5:27:09 PM
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1love1God1way
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I didn't know the question was whether one could change their ethnicity. . .
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 5:38:43 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
Now I am confused. I took a Religious Studies course in college. My professor said there was a Orthodox Jew and Ethnic Jew. These were 2 different people and catagory. Was this inaccurate?
According to the Sages, you are only a Jew if you are a covenant member. People can be cut off from the covenants if they commit certain grievous sins like pronouncing the Name of God, disagreeing with the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, or being involved in occult practices.
If you ask a Reform Jew whether they are a Jew they will tell you that they are. If you ask an Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi whether the Reform Jew is a Jew they will politely disagree.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 5:55:45 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I didn't know the question was whether one could change their ethnicity. . .
That is why it is important to ask these questions. Most of us misunderstand the issues behind the letters that Paul and others wrote. We need to understand that there were other Pharisaical believers who were mistaken on the whole Gentile-inclusion issue and they were insisting that Gentiles go through the proselyte ritual if they really wanted to be followers of Rabbi Yeshua benYosef (Jesus son of Joseph).
Paul understood that it wasn't necessary to undergo this ritual conversion. Paul knew that it wasn't Biblical. He knew that Abraham was righteous by faith only (about 12 years before he was circumcised). Paul knew that non-Jews had always been included in the people of God without loosing their ethnicity. Paul knew that it was a "mixed multitude" (Exodus 12:38) who came up out of Egypt and accepted the Torah at Mt. Sinai. Paul knew that the Torah often talks about Torah obedience for the "native born" (Jew) and the "stranger/alien" (non-Jew) who lives among them (Numbers 15:14-16, etc.).
Paul properly understood that this man-made ritual conversion was never necessary, as the Torah had provision in it for whoever would come to worship the God of Israel. The Gentile inclusion in the people of God was not a new thing with the coming of our Master. Our God has always accepted non-Jews into His covenants of promise.
The Apostles went against the grain of the theology of the First Century Judaisms. The Sages taught ritual conversion for Gentiles and even went so far as to build a court of the Gentiles in the Temple to keep them from approaching the altar with a sacrifice. God never intended a man-made wall to separate Jew and non-Jew. That is why Peter interpreted the vision of Acts 10 this way:
"Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean." (Acts 10:28)
There is no commandment in the Bible forbidding close association with Gentiles. Peter was referring to the Law of the Sages, or Jewish Law. The Sages had an oral tradition where they sometimes misinterpreted the Bible. Our God gave Peter a vision to show him that it was wrong to keep himself away from Gentiles. Our God crushed that false doctrine of the Sages.
I could go on, but I think I'll stop here for now.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 5:56:31 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Let me be the first to answer my own question. I do not believe that a Gentile can become a Jew. I don't believe that the Bible supports such an idea
Actually the Bible does support this idea. While no one can change their ethnicity, the "strangers" or non-Israelites who chose to worship the LORD God of Israel did indeed become Jews, and God accepted them as such.
Later on, the Jews (including the Pharisees) made "proselytes" of the Gentiles, and Christ had a message for them:
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Mt. 23:15).
According to Strong's a proselutos was an arriver from a foreign region, and specifically an acceder or a convert to Judaism. Therfore Gentiles, can and do become converts to Judaism.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 6:01:16 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
According to the Sages, you are only a Jew if you are a covenant member.
And according to John the Baptist, speaking as God's prophet, God could literally make "children of Abraham" out of stones (Mt. 3:9). For a Jew to boast that he has Abraham for his "father" is of little consequence to God.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 6:11:56 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conundrum
Paul taught against Gentile Christians being circumcised because by becoming a Jew, they'd have to follow all the Laws, which cannot save. (Galatians 5:23)
I think you meant Galatians 5:3? I'd like to point out that, in the context, Paul was talking about people who were attempting to obtain righteousness BY keeping the Law. I don't think that this passage is talking about people like you and I who are righteous by the grace of God through our genuine faith in Him. We follow His commandments because we love Him and we are saved, not in order to win our own salvation through our own strength.
Here are the pertinent verses that show he was talking about those who are trying to win their own salvation:
"And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:3-4)
Now, what was Paul talking about when he said "every man who becomes circumcised...is a debtor to keep the whole law"? Was he referring to the commandment of circumcision in the Bible or was he referring to the proselyte ritual that I have been talking about? This is the whole point of this thread. To try to properly understand Paul.
I don't think that Paul was talking about the commandment of circumcision in the Bible. It was common to refer to the proselyte ritual as "circumcision" as that is the first step. I also don't think that it is the Biblical command of circumcision, as Paul circumcised Timothy in Acts 16. If we apply Galatians 5:3-4 to Timothy it doesn't make sense. However, if we apply this statement of Paul to a Gentile person who doesn't think that faith is enough and they need to actually go through this man-made ritual to become a "Jew" it makes perfect sense.
It is vitally important to understand the theology of the First Century Judaisms if we want to fully understand the teachings of the Apostles. Their letters are one-sided discussions and they have a certain world-view and understanding of the Bible. We must walk in their shoes.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 6:20:39 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Let me be the first to answer my own question. I do not believe that a Gentile can become a Jew. I don't believe that the Bible supports such an idea
Actually the Bible does support this idea. While no one can change their ethnicity, the "strangers" or non-Israelites who chose to worship the LORD God of Israel did indeed become Jews, and God accepted them as such.
Later on, the Jews (including the Pharisees) made "proselytes" of the Gentiles, and Christ had a message for them:
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Mt. 23:15).
According to Strong's a proselutos was an arriver from a foreign region, and specifically an acceder or a convert to Judaism. Therfore Gentiles, can and do become converts to Judaism.
The Hebrew word for "stranger/alien" is ger. When translated into the Lxx, the Rabbis used proselutos. To understand what a ger is we need to do a careful study of its use. The Sages made it to be someone who was added to the faith and actually became a ethnic Jew. I am not saying that a Gentile cannot convert to Judaism. I am saying that they do not physically BECOME Jews in the process. The Sages teach that they do, but the Bible doesn't.
I'd like to recommend some books that discuss this topic in detail if you're interested in further study:
http://ffoz.org/resources/books/fellowheirs.html
http://ffoz.org/resources/books/the_mystery_of_the_gospel.html
http://ffoz.org/resources/books/the_letter_writer.html
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 6:26:45 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
According to the Sages, you are only a Jew if you are a covenant member.
And according to John the Baptist, speaking as God's prophet, God could literally make "children of Abraham" out of stones (Mt. 3:9). For a Jew to boast that he has Abraham for his "father" is of little consequence to God.
I agree with you 100%. It isn't important to those of us who understand the Scriptures properly on this topic. However, it was VERY important to many of the Jewish believers in the First Century. Many did not understand what Paul and the other Apostles were teaching concerning Gentile-inclusion in the covenants of promise. They grew up learning that the Sages were the ones who properly interpreted the Bible and they had a difficult time accepting different views.
The traditional interpretation of Scripture said that a Gentile had to convert by going through the proselyte ritual. The Apostles taught against that man-made tradition. We have to remember this very important fact when we try to properly interpret the Apostolic Scriptures.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 6:37:41 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1937
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Isaiah 56
3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."
And let not any eunuch complain,
"I am only a dry tree."
4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to serve him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to worship him,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations."
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 6:50:52 PM
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Lapidoth
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iSaJ,
Good topic.
Thanks for the instruction.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 6:56:27 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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Ben - I adore that Isaiah 56 passage. Thanks for posting it.
Lapidoth - You're welcome. :)
< Message edited by iSERVEaJEW -- 3/30/2008 7:02:44 PM >
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew? - 3/30/2008 10:27:57 PM
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Ps103
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Sure they can, just like people can convert to Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.
