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Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 9:31:53 AM
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Tinkerbell_
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Last week sometime in my home town (in Illinois) a 3 year old knocked a screen out of his house, crawled out and was then attacked by the family dog(s) and killed.
The community is in an uproar and wants to ban all dogs of this breed because of this.
I'm not quite sure how I feel, but I don't think blaming the dog(s) or even the breed is the way to go.
What is your take on this?
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 10:24:12 AM
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sharonjef2007
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I am addicted to the tv show "Dog Whisperer." I tend to agree with the guy on the show, it is the dog owners, NOT the dogs that need training and to change. He has a pack of normally 30ish dogs and most of them are pit bulls. But, ALL of them have really bad aggression issues, including being trained for dog fighting.
The parents simply did not teach the dog that the child was a pack leader, and not the dog.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 10:31:12 AM
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bolt.
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I think that parents who tend to take their eyes off their 3 year old a little too often are similar in temperament to owners who think dogs don't need much training if they are going to be fenced. Which is also often the temperament that might not have noticed that maybe a screen was coming loose.
I know that most of us take our eyes off our 3 year olds at least occasionally, and many of us would have considered a screen an adequate barrier -- and it is possible that this was a one-time freak accident happening to excellent parents... but... that's not "my take" on it.
However, dogs' characteristics often line up with their breed. It is probably possible for excellent owners to manage a dog of extremely aggressive breed well -- but it's not possible, organizationally as a city, to make sure only excellent owners get the kinds of dogs that are dangerous in the back yards of the average owner. I see the logic of just saying, "Some dogs are not family oriented dogs and are not welcome in our city where families deserve to be safe."
If there were infinite organizational resources, I'd say maybe there could be a test -- like you go to the kennel, out of town, stay for a few weeks, select and train your dog, then a certified tester would assess your degree of control over the dog and assess your knowledge of care, restraints, further training etc. and you would have your yard and fence inspected to specific 'aggressive breed dog' standards, and put up signs on your property, and you would have to keep the leash on, even in off leash areas... etc. etc. And a family with children found to have such a dog without the special licencing would have to go through it, or be charged with endangerment, or have the dog removed.
That sounds like a lot to go through just so people who are really into this breed can have one, though.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 10:52:19 AM
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Tinkerbell_
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I read the article about this incident and the child was thought to have been in bed but knocked the screen out and crawled outside.
There were three dogs and they were mixed breeds and two had the breed in question. They aren't sure which dog did what.
I know so many people who have raised strong dogs and they all say it's a matter of training. I had a cousin who even had wolves and they were beautiful and well trained animals.
I have a friend who raises a controversial type of breed and if you met these dogs you'd never know it. One is scared to death of her own shadow and the other two are like puppies. If you raise them to be mean and tough, they will be. If you don't raise them at all, nature will take over. *shrug*
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When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 11:10:15 AM
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poetessfree
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Last week sometime in my home town (in Illinois) a 3 year old knocked a screen out of his house, crawled out and was then attacked by the family dog(s) and killed.
The community is in an uproar and wants to ban all dogs of this breed because of this.
I'm not quite sure how I feel, but I don't think blaming the dog(s) or even the breed is the way to go.
What is your take on this?
I blame the parents. Although one can't keep an eye on their child 24 hrs, one can prevent a tragedy like this from happening by having tame & gentle dogs. I mean how many incidents like these have to happen before people realize that we cannot tame instinctively wild animals. Just look at that ape. The woman was so convinced that he was tame and genteel, like a human and her friend, that poor woman is almost blind and has to undergoe a series of surgeries. I do not understand for the life of me why any one, any parent would even want to raise dogs known for vicious attacks. I mean, what is the purpose other than training them to fight. With all of the gentle breeds, they choose vicious dogs. It is ignorant, irresponsible and careless and that child is dead because of the poor choice made by his/her parents. A shame!
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 11:14:49 AM
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stellaluna
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I don't blame the dog. I blame the parents for poor dog training and for poor kid training/supervision.
A fair number of bites come from smaller breeds, especially cocker spaniels and chihuahuas. I think most people really don't understand dogs (or cats) and never take the time to really train them--regardless of breed. And because of that, I also think people don't really take the time to train their children how to treat and act around dogs--especially strange dogs, but family dogs as well.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 11:24:40 AM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
I do not understand for the life of me why any one, any parent would even want to raise dogs known for vicious attacks.
ANY dog....even a small 5lb fluff ball, can attack a person. I have no doubt that a poorly trained and adorable Beagle with no boundries and poor training would also be able to kill a toddler. It is not about the breeds!
Dogs that are very strong physically...pit bulls, rotties, dobermans and shepherds were NOT originally bread to fight. They were bread to WORK! If you get a German Shepherd, expect him/her to want to herd! If you get a pit bull...that dog was bread to pull. THAT is why their bodies are so strong and stocky. How else do you expect a dog to pull a heavy cart?
Now, several of those breeds WERE bread in later times to fight. Strong dogs make for strong fighters. But, that does not damn the breed as a whole! If you buy or adopt a dog....ANY DOG....that person or people need to understand dogs and be able to train them properly. If you can't handle a rottie....then get a little yapper! If you are scared of a dog breed, don't get that breed.
The parents seemed to have bought or adopted a breed of dog that they did not know now to live with properly nor to train. That should not deny everyone else in that city the opportunity (those people who DO know how to train them properly) the right to own a great dog.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 12:12:05 PM
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stellaluna
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Case in point: a friend wanted a dog for her kids (ages 3 and 5) and got a border collie puppy. If you know anything about border collies, you know they need to work. They are very active and very intelligent. The puppy was put in the back yard and there you go. Not only did they not spend time with it to keep it from getting bored--which resulted in a lot of damage to their stuff in the backyard--they never did a thing to train him. He jumped, licked, etc. and the kids never wanted to be around him. Over a couple of years, jumping and licking turned into jumping and snapping, to the point that they would take their trash out by walking to the end of the block and going around to the alley instead of walking through the backyard.
I begged and pleaded with them to give the dog to someone who could spend time with him, but they were dead set on having that dog. Eventually, they decided he was too dangerous and they took him to animal control, where he was probably put down. My friend said, and I quote, "I don't understand what was wrong with him, I always heard border collies were really good dogs."
Many people are frighteningly uninformed when it comes to choosing a dog and a lot of times they get the wrong one. That causes problems as well.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 12:22:51 PM
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poetessfree
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
quote:
I do not understand for the life of me why any one, any parent would even want to raise dogs known for vicious attacks.
ANY dog....even a small 5lb fluff ball, can attack a person. I have no doubt that a poorly trained and adorable Beagle with no boundries and poor training would also be able to kill a toddler. It is not about the breeds!
Dogs that are very strong physically...pit bulls, rotties, dobermans and shepherds were NOT originally bread to fight. They were bread to WORK! If you get a German Shepherd, expect him/her to want to herd! If you get a pit bull...that dog was bread to pull. THAT is why their bodies are so strong and stocky. How else do you expect a dog to pull a heavy cart?
Now, several of those breeds WERE bread in later times to fight. Strong dogs make for strong fighters. But, that does not damn the breed as a whole! If you buy or adopt a dog....ANY DOG....that person or people need to understand dogs and be able to train them properly. If you can't handle a rottie....then get a little yapper! If you are scared of a dog breed, don't get that breed.
The parents seemed to have bought or adopted a breed of dog that they did not know now to live with properly nor to train. That should not deny everyone else in that city the opportunity (those people who DO know how to train them properly) the right to own a great dog.
I understand that any dog can attack but statistically, it is those breeds: pitbulls, rotweilers, etc that are doing the attacking. No matter what spin you put on it, the numbers speak for themselves. If people are going to raise dogs that are wild in nature, keep them locked up so that they won't get sued when their "working" dog attacks another innocent human being.
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The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 12:24:41 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
I understand that any dog can attack but statistically, it is those breeds: pitbulls, rotweilers, etc that are doing the attacking. No matter what spin you put on it, the numbers speak for themselves. If people are going to raise dogs that are wild in nature, keep them locked up so that they won't get sued when their "working" dog attacks another innocent human being.
Please show me the statistics you are talking about.
Here is a story on statistics that may surprise you!
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 12:50:56 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
I understand that any dog can attack but statistically, it is those breeds: pitbulls, rotweilers, etc that are doing the attacking. No matter what spin you put on it, the numbers speak for themselves. If people are going to raise dogs that are wild in nature, keep them locked up so that they won't get sued when their "working" dog attacks another innocent human being.
It is these breeds because these are the strong breeds. My brother is a police officer and works with these dogs all the time. He says these are the most loving, caring, gentle dogs that he has ever been around because of how well they're trained. My brother trained rotties for a while and they were so sweet and mild mannered because that's how they're trained.
You can swat a 4 pound ball of fur away from you. It's a little harder to get 135 pounds of pure muscle away.
AND, in this case the people owned the dogs, and these were not full bred dogs. They were mixed.
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 2:01:11 PM
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stellaluna
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According to the SPCA, about nine children are killed by dogs each year. Tree children are killed each day by a parent.
I will never be convinced that an entire breed should be banned.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 2:41:35 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
I understand that any dog can attack but statistically, it is those breeds: pitbulls, rotweilers, etc that are doing the attacking. No matter what spin you put on it, the numbers speak for themselves. If people are going to raise dogs that are wild in nature, keep them locked up so that they won't get sued when their "working" dog attacks another innocent human being.
It is these breeds because these are the strong breeds. My brother is a police officer and works with these dogs all the time. He says these are the most loving, caring, gentle dogs that he has ever been around because of how well they're trained. My brother trained rotties for a while and they were so sweet and mild mannered because that's how they're trained.
You can swat a 4 pound ball of fur away from you. It's a little harder to get 135 pounds of pure muscle away.
AND, in this case the people owned the dogs, and these were not full bred dogs. They were mixed.
I had a rottie growing up and he was the sweetest, most docile 145lbs dog you ever met  We have pictures of my younger brother cuddled up with him while drinking his bottle at about 10 months old. BUT, we did a lot of work and were very careful not to do anything to encourage aggression when he was a puppy. It was especially important because he had been previously abused. He would cower and pee on the floor anytime he saw a broom, it was very sad.
He was also very energetic, I ran miles and miles with him every week. Dogs like that can't be cooped up and just left in a yard.
Anyway, I am not a fan of breed banning.
In the case of that article I would blame the parents for not adequately protecting their child.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/1/2009 4:35:50 PM
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his_chosen
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Dog owners fault. 100%. You can not get a dog, do nothing with it, then expect it to be a canine good citizen. Dogs are PACK animals. Dog and wolf pack leaders "train" the younger pack members. Once we bring a dog into our family, we become their pack. It is up to US to train them.
We currently have three dogs--A collie mix, a great pyrenees, and a beagle. Dh and I are the alphas of the family. The kids are under us. The dogs are at the bottom of the pack. How the dogs settle things among themselves is up to them. But, the dogs HAD to be trained that WE are the head of the pack.
The reason big dogs tend to become "banned" breeds is not because they are more aggressive. It's because they do more damage. I used to be a vet tech. Give me a German Shephard, rotty or even pit bull any day over a poodle or male buff cocker spaniel!
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 12:04:19 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Give me a German Shephard, rotty or even pit bull any day over a poodle or male buff cocker spaniel!
Absolutely! I actually feel more comfortable with DD around a larger dog then I do with her around smaller ones. Small dogs just seem shifty and dishonest to me. I know it's an odd way to describe a dog, but I don't trust them at all. The only dogs I've ever had issues with were a male buff cocker spaniel and a little rat terrier.
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Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 12:55:05 AM
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still4gvn
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A dog may recognize your kids as 'one of the pack', but that won't necessarily save other kids. There was a dog in our neighborhood that hunted and killed at least 11 cats until a judge finally had him put down (yes, the owner should have been put down and the dog sent to someone who obeyed leash laws, but they don't do that in Seattle)
Turned out, the dog had been living with cats at home and was affectionate with them. Being a dog with hunting in his genes, he just assumed the home cats were pack and others prey. Thank God no kids were involved.
I've had friends bitten because loose dogs were after their leashed dog.
Just don't think you can completely train away nature. My cat is loving and certainly not aggressive, but if a little kid grabbed my cat, he'd get scratched. But then she'd run away if she could. Start a fight with a pit bull and he isn't giving up.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 9:49:03 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 569
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
quote:
I understand that any dog can attack but statistically, it is those breeds: pitbulls, rotweilers, etc that are doing the attacking. No matter what spin you put on it, the numbers speak for themselves. If people are going to raise dogs that are wild in nature, keep them locked up so that they won't get sued when their "working" dog attacks another innocent human being.
Please show me the statistics you are talking about.
Here is a story on statistics that may surprise you!
Gladly,
The deadliest dogs
Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.
According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:
If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.
Clifton's opinions are as interesting as his statistics. For example, he says, "Pit bulls and Rottweilers are accordingly dogs who not only must be handled with special precautions, but also must be regulated with special requirements appropriate to the risk they may pose to the public and other animals, if they are to be kept at all."
Here is link to website: http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html
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The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 10:01:50 AM
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sharonjef2007
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It is funny how with the same statistics, a person can find such varying opinions and interpretations of them. Kinda like the Bible....LOL!
Does not look like we are going to agree. But, I would probably move before I got rid of my dog if my area imposed such a law.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 10:04:23 AM
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stellaluna
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You have to be very careful where your statistics come from. "Recommendations" will be skewed by whatever group is handing them out.
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I am very watchful with my kids. But there's a big difference between them being attacked by a ****zu and attacked by a rottie or a german shepherd. 
Any small dog that attacked my kid would find it's adorable little ribs kicked in, probably. 
However, I don't normally walk around with guns or shovels, so trying to save my child if he were attacked by a large dog like that would be another matter altogether, and I'd be less likely to win in time to keep serious damage from happening. 
)
I just remembered the story.
MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT ~ PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS! 
And they're ugly. 
