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Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a remnant of the "old man"?
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Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a remnant... - 9/29/2009 2:55:14 AM
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agapist
Posts: 662
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If we define sin as separation from God, I see shame as a perfect fit.
Back in the eighties, there was this fadish talk of healthy and unhealthy shame (as well as healthy and unhealthy anger). I see absolutely nothing healthy about shame. To me, it is simply part of the condition of the "old man."
But then again, I grew up in a very shame-based environment, both at home and in church. Shame was understood by me at that time to be a part of humility, a rightful attitude to have about my sinful nature.
To distinguish guilt from shame, I find these popular definitions useful:
Guilt: feeling badly about what you did.
Shame: feeling badly about who you are.
At thirteen, I put this little helpful quip in my journal: 'Guilt is the gold-trim to a good soul.' Back then, if I was not feeling at least a little badly about something, I was losing sight of my proper place with God.
You do not need to stick to my definitions; I just thought they might be helpful in distinguishes between these two often interchangeable words.
(Many make the same mistake with facetious and sarcastic; one is being silly and the other cruel, respectively. Funny how they can be confused. And not so funny how sarcasm is used so casually by some in this forum. Just needed to air that for myself.)
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 6:52:37 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
If we define sin as separation from God, I see shame as a perfect fit.
Back in the eighties, there was this fadish talk of healthy and unhealthy shame (as well as healthy and unhealthy anger). I see absolutely nothing healthy about shame. To me, it is simply part of the condition of the "old man."
But then again, I grew up in a very shame-based environment, both at home and in church. Shame was understood by me at that time to be a part of humility, a rightful attitude to have about my sinful nature.
To distinguish guilt from shame, I find these popular definitions useful:
Guilt: feeling badly about what you did.
Shame: feeling badly about who you are.
At thirteen, I put this little helpful quip in my journal: 'Guilt is the gold-trim to a good soul.' Back then, if I was not feeling at least a little badly about something, I was losing sight of my proper place with God.
You do not need to stick to my definitions; I just thought they might be helpful in distinguishes between these two often interchangeable words.
(Many make the same mistake with facetious and sarcastic; one is being silly and the other cruel, respectively. Funny how they can be confused. And not so funny how sarcasm is used so casually by some in this forum. Just needed to air that for myself.)
I did a little reading on it a few years ago. No Condemnation by Bruce Narramore comes to mind. It was very helpful. But I seem to recall either the author or someone else saying the biblical distinction between shame (healthy or not) and guilt (legitimate or not) is not all that clear cut.
In the end, I decided that my own personal feelings was not the best arbiter for determining what was sinful. Two examples come to mind. One would be the partaking of alcohol and the other would be thoughts about sex. Both were influenced by what I was taught and by what was in scripture. Other people had fewer or no problems such as I had. For a long time, I considered that it was the HS and that other people just weren't listening to Him. I was surprised and considered the points raised by the author---that one's conscience is not "The Voice of God." That was a struggle and rather frightening for a while.
Anyway, there is something else in the book. That is that shame is a consequence of the fall. Immediately after partaking of forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve experienced shame and hid themselves from God. That resulted from a break in fellowship from God and they lost a sense of openness with Him.
My thought is that while it is a sign of a broken relationship with God, not everything we feel shameful about is accurate. It may be a sign that there is something but it might not necessarily identify what it is. Therefore, having shame is simply here to stay as part of the human condition. Lost people generally experience shame, but just not about the same thing Christians do. They feel shameful about the environment, eating meat or a dozen other things that manifest as political causes---but not about abortion or drug abuse. Some of their (and our) activities operate to feel better about it, success or no success.
(There are people who don't any experience shame and guilt. We call them pathological criminals but that's another story.)
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 11:43:18 AM
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LCannon
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Simply shame as temptation or guilt against an attitude(person or cause)isn't a sin(of arrogance)per se' but to dwell in sympathy or stew in one's juices is disobedience to the blood of Christ Jesus.
James 1:2-'My brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of any kind, consider it nothing but joy, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance; 4 and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing...14 But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved. 17 Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.'
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 3:01:24 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5603
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I, too have done my homework in this area. GrahamCracker's post is extremely good, imo. Shame came with the Fall.
The shame some people walk around with is usually because they have forgotten their position in Christ. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus - Romans 8:1
Shame seems to have more to do with "our" behavior, our will in response or comparison to God's will. Shame is also a consequence for chosing to sin. Some things (abortion, etc.) are shameful and a result of our choice to sin. Our recognizing this in view of the Cross is part of a restoration process to God. Shame should drive us to our knees before a holy God in true brokeness and repentence. Unfortunately, shame tends to drive us to ourselves, to become overly thoughtful about ourselves - forgetting to think on things of God and instead, thinking on ourselves which can lead to depression.
I agree that shame and guilt are not the same, but many times they are partners.
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 3:56:50 PM
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navyblueret
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Guilt is the result of a sinful act done. Shame is the result of the pain, trust, and love destroyed by the guilty act. Repentance is the balm that allows the pain, trust, and love to heal, so forgiveness may be received, and the scar diminished, or excised.
In Messiah, the Great Surgeon. Arley
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In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 4:30:57 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
I, too have done my homework in this area. GrahamCracker's post is extremely good, imo. Shame came with the Fall.
The shame some people walk around with is usually because they have forgotten their position in Christ. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus - Romans 8:1
Shame seems to have more to do with "our" behavior, our will in response or comparison to God's will. Shame is also a consequence for chosing to sin. Some things (abortion, etc.) are shameful and a result of our choice to sin. Our recognizing this in view of the Cross is part of a restoration process to God. Shame should drive us to our knees before a holy God in true brokeness and repentence. Unfortunately, shame tends to drive us to ourselves, to become overly thoughtful about ourselves - forgetting to think on things of God and instead, thinking on ourselves which can lead to depression.
I agree that shame and guilt are not the same, but many times they are partners.
Regarding: 'Shame seems to have more to do with "our" behavior, our will in response or comparison to God's will.' What about shame for simply existing? A lot of people feel shame when they simply just walk into a room. Psychologists would classify that under some variation of low self esteem. There is nothing shameful about existing, but people feel it and become neurotics.
Regarding: 'Shame is also a consequence for chosing to sin. Some things (abortion, etc.) are shameful and a result of our choice to sin. ' Let's be careful here. Within some of the reading I did, there are some who differentiate between shame and guilt. Guilt is the feeling of disesteem (Narramore's term) feel for having legitimately transgressed God's commands. Shame is a similar feeling without having a concrete cause. Some people might feel shame for having had a fleeting thought or for not living up to the expectations of a parent or spouse. Or, feeling shame for not earning a better income for their families. Guilt is the feeling of disesteem for having stolen something, lied about something, or for having a murderous thought about someone.
While I realize the examples I gave are rather clear cut (I chose those on purpose), there are things that are not clear cut. Dancing used to be a big one. It probably isn't any more. Partaking in a sip of wine or beer. The feelings of guilt/shame feel subjectively the same to many people, but insofar as having offended God, good arguments can be advanced ad nauseam for different views.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 4:37:42 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5603
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Regarding: 'Shame seems to have more to do with "our" behavior, our will in response or comparison to God's will.' What about shame for simply existing? A lot of people feel shame when they simply just walk into a room. Psychologists would classify that under some variation of low self esteem. There is nothing shameful about existing, but people feel it and become neurotics.
For a believer, it is because they have forgotten their position in Christ. They have a wrong view of the Gospel.
quote:
Regarding: 'Shame is also a consequence for chosing to sin. Some things (abortion, etc.) are shameful and a result of our choice to sin. ' Let's be careful here. Within some of the reading I did, there are some who differentiate between shame and guilt. Guilt is the feeling of disesteem (Narramore's term) feel for having legitimately transgressed God's commands. Shame is a similar feeling without having a concrete cause. Some people might feel shame for having had a fleeting thought or for not living up to the expectations of a parent or spouse. Or, feeling shame for not earning a better income for their families. Guilt is the feeling of disesteem for having stolen something, lied about something, or for having a murderous thought about someone.
Um...ok...I was painting with a broader brush...
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 5:05:31 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Regarding: 'Shame seems to have more to do with "our" behavior, our will in response or comparison to God's will.' What about shame for simply existing? A lot of people feel shame when they simply just walk into a room. Psychologists would classify that under some variation of low self esteem. There is nothing shameful about existing, but people feel it and become neurotics.
For a believer, it is because they have forgotten their position in Christ. They have a wrong view of the Gospel.
Possibly, but I wish it were just that simple. Some people experience heavy doses of shame from their upbringing. I did even after I attended Bible college. People do it even after attending both Bible college and seminary, annnndddd years of ministry. They could give you a strong and sound presentation of the gospel. There may be some disconnect between what they believe and what they say they believe, but it is not necessarily a wrong view of the gospel.
While I don't think you are saying this, there are some people (not you) who would suggest that people experiencing these feelings aren't really saved. It's a pity that people say this but they do. What about gay people? I know this isn't a thread about homosexuality but there are Christians who have certain feelings that simply won't go away even though they have a clear understanding of the gospel. The environment we were raised in is a factor. The input from parents and friends influences us greatly.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 5:11:50 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5603
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From: The higher lowcountry
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Having those feelings and acting on them are not the same...a wrong view of the Gospel puts ourselves or anything we do at the center of it - consciously or not - and takes way from the finished work of the Cross. At least in a very broad sense. i.e. my shame is more important than Jesus completed work...stuff like that.
anyways...I think I'll bow out of here cause I think this topic is going down a psychology path that I truly can't speak to.
Thanks for asking me to clarify...
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/29/2009 5:13:19 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5603
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and no...I don't think that if someone has shame issues, they are not saved. 
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/30/2009 1:33:14 AM
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agapist
Posts: 662
Joined: 6/13/2009
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Great insights, grahamcracker, a very balanced and well presented view.
My experience of shame, however, was not as Naaramore described, a baseless guilt and I do not see the response in the Garden as being that way either. It is, to me, along the lines of what navyblueret said, love destroyed.
My whole connection to God severed. I was in exile from all decency and warmth, too dirty and bad to look at, and never to be welcomed anywhere by good people. Total debasement due to my complete lack of character and worth.
The base of this were parents and church authority figures (nuns and brothers and priests, oh my) telling me I was dirty, bad, and unworthy, ugly and stupid. Or to sum it up: wholly unloveable by God or man.
How I dealt with this for about thirty years (from five years old up) was to be seen as a wonderful fellow, charming and giving, a devout person of God. Sacrificing all the time for others, martyring myself to save my younger siblings from wrath. As saintly as I looked, inside I was tortured by this relentless condemnation. Whatever I did, I could have done more if I were not so stupid and essentially bad. Sins of omissions for things I could do nothing about in reality but should have done in my mind.
Every pain or disappointment my siblings experience in the home, every argument my parents had, all of it could have been avoided if I could just try a little hard. Psychology calls it an over-developed sense of responsibility. Very neat.
Since healing from most of that, and along the way, I have meet many, many people who share this tragically wrong view of themselves and think it is humility.
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 9/30/2009 1:39:41 AM
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agapist
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If Adam and Eve had had a healthy and mature relationship with God, they would not have hide and covered themselves but run to their father with the grief of experiencing a diminished or lost relationship, trusting in his love for them.
Sadness, "to mourn," is a healthy response to sin, and that moves us to mend that wound of separation. Guilt and shame are perverse pride.
A sense of separation from God is the Fundamental Sorrow at the root of all our earthly woes.
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 10/1/2009 1:03:27 PM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
If Adam and Eve had had a healthy and mature relationship with God, they would not have hide and covered themselves but run to their father with the grief of experiencing a diminished or lost relationship, trusting in his love for them.
Sadness, "to mourn," is a healthy response to sin, and that moves us to mend that wound of separation. Guilt and shame are perverse pride.
A sense of separation from God is the Fundamental Sorrow at the root of all our earthly woes.
So how do we apply this idea of no guilt or shame to our lives?
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 10/4/2009 10:21:30 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1826
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quote:
To distinguish guilt from shame, I find these popular definitions useful:
Guilt: feeling badly about what you did.
Shame: feeling badly about who you are.
What a wonderful new topic, agapist! And I can so identify. Although I grew up in a very loving environment, I have also had the struggle with the overly developed sense of responsibility and, yes, I absolutely see it as what you called 'perverse pride'.
Our home was one where there was just an unspoken expectation of perfection, doing things well always. Standards weren't spoken. We weren't criticized or condemned. Nor do I remember others' being criticized or condemned. It was more of an internal standard that we all had. I was expected to do well. I expected myself to do well. And when I didn't, I beat myself up (not physically).
Coming into a right view of myself, God's view of myself, took a long time. And as doinkdom said in one of her posts, I had to get myself out of the center of my life. (She didn't say that of me specifically.  ) Anyway, it was wonderful as I grew closer to the Lord to be set free of myself.
So how do we apply this guilt/shame information to our lives?
If guilt is the proper response to sin, the elimination of sin deals with guilt.
And if shame is the product of seeing yourself wrongly, then you need a right view of self, God's view. Psalm 71:1 says In Thee, O Lord, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed. In Him there is no shame. It is only if I step out, away from the Lord, and try going it on my own, forgetting Whose I am that shame can enter in. So I stay close to Jesus. I believe what He says about me. . . you know all those great I am statements like I am eternally loved. I no longer have to feel bad about who I am because I am His and I am loved and that's really all that matters. 
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Is shame a sin or just spiritually unhealthy, a rem... - 10/5/2009 9:48:28 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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I will try to post some thoughts about what Narramore said in his book, No Condemnation. I hope I do it justice.
Guilty feelings, as I remember, have no basis in scripture. We are either objectively guilty before God or not. Shame, as I remember in scripture, does not discriminate between objective guilt and all kinds of embarrassment. We may be truly guilty (for some wrong) and therefore ought to feel shame. Or we may feel shame even though we have done nothing.
I do remember a conversation with a staff member at my church. I felt "shame" but had absolutely no explanation for it. He called it "free floating guilt" or "free floating shame." I cannot remember which term he used. It dawned on me gradually from then on that my feelings of shame/guilt might have no cause arising out of my own actions. IOW, it does not necessarily mean that there was anything to be ashamed or feel to feel guilty about. While ought to have been liberating, it was not. I had grown so accustomed to the need of feeling shame/guilt, the thought that there was no active cause for it meant that there was some responsibility on my part for addressing it. And I had no idea how. If it was not from God, then God's forgiveness wasn't going to help much. I was already forgiven in Christ, and He wasn't adding to my feelings of disesteem.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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