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Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/8/2008 1:07:07 PM
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vmginny
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I was told today that no where in the bible is there mention of the sinful nature of man. Sin is talked about but not a sinful nature.
I shared that it was my understanding Jesus did not have a sinful nature because God was his father not man. I thought that mankind were handed down a sinful nature from Adam that through him we all have a sinful nature that is behind us sinning.
What are your thoughts and the scriptures that support them?
Ginny
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Mark 10:27
Looking at them, Jesus *said, “ With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/8/2008 1:18:26 PM
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john_mark
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the idea of a sin nature comes from a couple of places in scripture. it is often argued that since in genesis 2 adam is told that the day he eats the forbidden friut he will die, and since he did not drop dead the day he ate, God must have been speaking of a spiritual death.
amother passage cited is ephesians 2:1-3 which speaks on one being dead in their trespasses and sins, and that they were by nature the children of wrath.
but the term sinful nature or sin nature as far as i can tell does not appear in scripture.
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/8/2008 2:01:03 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: vmginny
I was told today that no where in the bible is there mention of the sinful nature of man. Sin is talked about but not a sinful nature.
I shared that it was my understanding Jesus did not have a sinful nature because God was his father not man. I thought that mankind were handed down a sinful nature from Adam that through him we all have a sinful nature that is behind us sinning.
What are your thoughts and the scriptures that support them?
Ginny
True, the exact words "sin nature" don't appear in Bible, however consider the following verses:
Galatians 4:8-9 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. (9) But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
Before Christ we were slaves to things...the nature of a slave is to obey their master...
(Ephesians 2:3) Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Before Christ our nature was to follow what ever looked good at the time, a child of wrath is another way of saying a sinner.
Ephesians 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
the old self is another way of saying old nature..
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Colossians 3:9-10 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, (10) and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--
again, old self...the self is the person's nature.
The term sin nature is not EXPLICITLY mentioned in scripture....but it most certainly is implicit in scripture.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/8/2008 2:33:07 PM
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deermousie
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Tiim nailed it - look up "old self" and "flesh." Sometimes flesh means meat, like a steak or your physical body, but also in the New Testament it means sin nature - depending on which translation you're using. The "old self" is in direct opposition to the Spirit.
New Living Translation of Gal. 2:20:
My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
New International Version, same verse for comparison:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Also these verses in regards to our sin nature:
Ephesians 4:22
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Colossians 3:9
Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
NKJV, NASB and NLT - I got these quickly from www.biblegateway.com .
Hope this helps!
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/8/2008 4:51:27 PM
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Robert_G
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Man does not 'naturally' seek to do things pleasing to God, but instead to satisfy his own lustful desires.
Therefore as a nonbeliever, our 'nature' is to be 'sinful'.
Only God can change our heart, and he does that through the Holy Spirit.
And even as a believer, the old self is still present. How much so? That depends on where you are in your walk with Christ.
< Message edited by Robert_G -- 6/8/2008 4:57:34 PM >
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/8/2008 9:45:43 PM
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makarizo
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the 'first adam/last adam verse is in 1st Cor 15:45
sin nature is product of the flesh...deeds of the flesh, flesh nature, earthly nature, natural man.... are contrasted to spiritual
1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;
Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/9/2008 12:09:04 AM
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sunshine4God
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Yes and we are all born with it.Thats why we need Jesus to save us!
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Matthew 5:16.
"Let your light so shine before men that they will see
your good deeds and glorify your Lord".
Its me!
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/9/2008 12:55:31 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
deermousie:
Look up "old self" and "flesh." Sometimes flesh means meat, like a steak or your physical body, but also in the New Testament it means sin nature - depending on which translation you're using.
Flesh=
Following
Long
Established
Self-Centered
Habits
A good way to remember what flesh means in scripture.
I didn't originate that, I heard it as a sermon illustration and it stuck with me.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/9/2008 9:04:26 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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Psalm 51:5
Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
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"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/10/2008 6:48:05 AM
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BibleL7
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john_mark answered it on the spot. As it is impossible for God to lie, God told Adam that the day you eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die. And they did die spiritually that very hour. You will not that they did not have a connection with the Lord they heard Him and were afraid. When you read the genealogy of Adam you will see the words that Adam had a son after his own likeness. Meaning spiritually dead just as all children of Adam which means all humans ever born, are born spiritually dead. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that unless you are born of water and Spirit you can not enter the kingdom of God. We must be born again. Born in Spirit, made new in Christ. So if we are born spiritually dead we are by natural birth sinful which simply means we are separated from God.
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/10/2008 9:35:12 AM
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deliveredarling
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1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Before we acccept Christ, we can not understand spiritual things because of our "sinful nature". After acceptance, we can because the HS dwells within. Our sin nature is constantly at war with our spirit. That is why the dying to self is so important. It is a process for life to continue the shedding of that nature. It is not something we do on our own though, it is by the Power of the HS.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/12/2008 9:09:47 AM
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TheFallingAwayIsHere
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Anyone who thinks there is no such thing as a 'sinful nature' has never had PMS.
Or been married ... and mad.
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Saved? Sure? Matthew 25:31-46
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/12/2008 9:36:19 AM
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kingdust
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheFallingAwayIsHere
Anyone who thinks there is no such thing as a 'sinful nature' has never had PMS.
Or been married ... and mad.
That person must be very blind to the fact of who we are in contrary to who God is.
Or too numb to feel awkward sleeping in a snow white clean bed, without taking bath after a long day of dirty, sweaty work.
Or, maybe too clean to feel that.
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I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/12/2008 9:52:26 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello vmginny
People inherited a sinful nature from the fall of Adam. That's why we need to be reborn of the Spirit of God so it can be washed away. Study the Bible and you will see what I mean.
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/13/2008 12:01:16 AM
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vmginny
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Thanks all. Oh...I believe in the sinful nature. It was comments from my Sunday School class that said they didn't believe in being born with sin.
I came on here to get scriptures to show why I believe the way I do.
I have a friend who gave me a book by Jimmy Swaggart on Sinful Nature. I am going to read it this weekend.
_____________________________
Mark 10:27
Looking at them, Jesus *said, “ With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
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RE: Is there such a thing as sinful nature? - 6/13/2008 12:37:22 AM
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justajerk
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quote:
Thanks all. Oh...I believe in the sinful nature. It was comments from my Sunday School class that said they didn't believe in being born with sin.
I came on here to get scriptures to show why I believe the way I do.
Try these:
Total Depravity (Inability) Verse List
The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) understands the Bible to teach that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, and unable of themselves to please God or even to turn to Christ for salvation.
Is man basically good or basically evil?
Ecclesiastes 7:29
"Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."
Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."
Romans 5:12,19
through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners
c.f. Ecclesiastes 9:3
All men? Are there any exceptions?
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
2 Chronicles 6:36
there is no man who does not sin
Romans 3:9-12
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.
1 John 1:8,10
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar and His word is not in us.
c.f. 1 Kings 8:46; Psalm 53:1-3, 116:11, 130:3, 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Jeremiah 2:29; Micah 7:2-4, Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19; James 3:2; etc., etc.
Are people good deep down?
Mark 7:21-23
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
Psalm 5:9
There is nothing reliable in what they say; their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
Are men totally depraved? Is any faculty of the person yet uncorrupted?
Heart/Thoughts (Deceitful)
Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Ecclesiastes 9:3
the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
Psalm 36:1-2
Transgression speaks to the ungodly within his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes. For it flatters him in his own eyes concerning the discovery of his iniquity and the hatred of it.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool
c.f. Ecclesiastes 8:11; Psalm 94:11; Mark 7:21-23
Mind/Understanding (Depraved)
Romans 1:28-31
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being... without understanding
Titus 1:15-16
to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled
Ephesians 4:17-18
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Jeremiah 10:7-8,14
For among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. But they are altogether stupid and foolish. Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge
Will/Choosing (Enslaved)
John 8:34
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
2 Timothy 2:25-26
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
Titus 3:3
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
Romans 6:6
our old self was crucified with Him... so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient... and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Romans 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Romans 7:14
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
c.f. John 8:31-32,36; Galatians 4:9; 2 Peter 2:19
Affections/Desires (Perverted)
Romans 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
2 Timothy 3:2-4
For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God
Proverbs 21:10
The soul of the wicked desires evil
John 3:19
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."
c.f. Genesis 3:16; Psalm 4:2, 140:8; Proverbs 10:23; 2 Peter 2:13
et al (Utter Ruin)
Titus 1:15-16
to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled
Romans 7:18
I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh
Isaiah 1:5-6
The whole head is sick and the whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head there is nothing sound in it, only bruises, welts and raw wounds, not pressed out or bandaged, nor softened with oil.
Are they just misdirected? Do men "not know better?"
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Romans 1:21
For even though they knew God they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:32
and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
c.f. Romans 2:14-15
Can men still do good when they want to?
Matthew 7:18
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Romans 8:7
the mind set on the flesh... does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
Titus 1:15-16
to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
c.f. 1 Samuel 24:13; Job 14:4; Matthew 12:34; Romans 14:23
Are men at least born pure? What about the "tabula rasa?"
Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
c.f. Proverbs 22:15; Isaiah 48:8
What is the natural disposition of man toward God?
John 3:20
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
Romans 8:7-8
the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Colossians 1:21
you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds
James 4:4
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
c.f. Romans 1:28-30
What is man's relationship to God?
Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
c.f. Isaiah 59:2
Can man then do anything to please God?
Proverbs 15:9
The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
Proverbs 15:8/21:27
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
Proverbs 28:9
He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
Isaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
Romans 8:7-8
the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
c.f. Psalm 50:16; Proverbs 21:4; Isaiah 1:10-15; Amos 5:21-24
Are men at least seeking God?
John 3:20
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
Isaiah 65:1
"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me."
Isaiah 64:7
There is no one who calls on Your name, who arouses himself to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us and have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
Romans 3:10-12
"there is none who seeks for God"
c.f. Romans 10:20
Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?
1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Crist crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness
Matthew 11:27
"no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.'
c.f. Psalm 119:18; Proverbs 4:19; Ephesians 4:17-19; 2 Corinthians 2:15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?
John 3:27
John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
John 14:16
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:44 & 64
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 11:35-36
Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
c.f. Jonah 2:9; Zephaniah 3:9; John 15:16; 1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 1:6; James 1:18
Who supplies faith/belief/repentance?
Romans 12:3
God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Acts 5:31
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake... to believe in Him
Acts 18:27
And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Timothy 2:25
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, [etc.]... if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth
1 Corinthians 12:3
no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit
2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence
John 3:6 & 6:63
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing;"
c.f. John 5:44; Ephesians 6:23; 1 Corinthians 4:7; 2 Peter 1:1
Can men do anything to help themselves?
Romans 5:6
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
c.f. Psalm 49:7-9; Jeremiah 2:22
Who then can be saved?!
Matthew 19:26
Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
I found this list through Monergism which linked to:
Travis Carden
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"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
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