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Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 12:57:53 PM
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Liveloved
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OK, I was with a group of women last night. Some are believing women and others are not.
One woman brought up the question of her mother giving up her driver's license. But her mother wants to keep her car.
Another woman says "Be sure and put the insurance in your name now as an additional car. That way you can really lower the insurance." Her sister, a believer, agrees. (I think this deceitful and NOT the way believing people should live.)
Then the subject of transferring the wealth of parents to children comes up. They all agree (believing and unbelieving) that this is wise. And we know the result. That means we are paying for the care of their family members when they go to the nursing home, for their medical care, or when they go into subsidized housing because of their low income, etc.
I think this is how the world does live. But is it how believing people should live? Are we to live like the world? Isn't this just what Jesus was talking about when He said the Pharisees take what could be used to help their parents and 'give it to God'? I believe so.
My parents told me that their wealth was to be used for their support and care until they died. They believed strongly that that was God's intention. I believe their choice the godly one.
So my question, just like the world? What do you say?
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 1:32:29 PM
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car2ner
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There are laws that have time restrictions on how far back ownership of a home has changed hands before changes in tax, medicare, etc. take place. I personally have no problem with being wise stewards of funds and making sure that money is wisely managed to last through out our last few years. I remember my mom and her husband had saved up for retirement. He had a stroke and eventually had to go to a nursing home. It would have striped them of their savings in no time. So instead they did a fully legal spend down. They put the money into a primary vehical and into home improvements. Once their savings were gone then they qualified for assistance for the nursing home. It is sad that it has to be this way but I understand it. In the meantime the home improvements made the home more appealing years later when my mom had to sell. The bit of profit that she made from the sale now is in the bank to help cover her living expenses. It is not a huge amount of money and she needs to be wise still to make it last.
If someone is trying to hide money that is one thing, but to shift money legally to help make it last through our final years, I see no issue with that. Putting mom's car on the insurance as an additional car is not a problem at all if the insurance company has no problem with it. We put our children's vehicals on our insurance even though they "own" their own cars. And this mom isn't even driving it so it makes even more sense to shift the responsibility of insurance to those who will be driving it.
< Message edited by car2ner -- 10/14/2009 1:39:22 PM >
_____________________________
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"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 3:19:38 PM
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mrtigger
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
So my question, just like the world? What do you say?
In my experience I've found that Christians do not behave much better than non-Christians.
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mr tigger
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 3:23:26 PM
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moon_mouse
Posts: 435
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Different companies have different requirements for grouping services. Sometimes it is defined by age, sometimes by residence, sometimes by what percentage of a person's support you provide. Sometimes there is no formal requirement, and "family packages" are defined by the number of people, no matter what their familial or economic relationship. As long as the woman's situation falls within the company's requirements, I don't see any moral conflict.
As the country's population ages while mobility increases (and children often don't live as close to aging parents), smart companies are relaxing requirements to encourage current customers to expand their service packages and add new services. It benefits the company by increasing revenue and retaining customers. It benefits families by giving them flexible options to meet the needs of aging parents.
I really don't see the issue here.
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 3:32:17 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
There are laws that have time restrictions on how far back ownership of a home has changed hands before changes in tax, medicare, etc. take place. I personally have no problem with being wise stewards of funds and making sure that money is wisely managed to last through out our last few years. I remember my mom and her husband had saved up for retirement. He had a stroke and eventually had to go to a nursing home. It would have striped them of their savings in no time. So instead they did a fully legal spend down. They put the money into a primary vehical and into home improvements. Once their savings were gone then they qualified for assistance for the nursing home. It is sad that it has to be this way but I understand it. In the meantime the home improvements made the home more appealing years later when my mom had to sell. The bit of profit that she made from the sale now is in the bank to help cover her living expenses. It is not a huge amount of money and she needs to be wise still to make it last.
If someone is trying to hide money that is one thing, but to shift money legally to help make it last through our final years, I see no issue with that. Putting mom's car on the insurance as an additional car is not a problem at all if the insurance company has no problem with it. We put our children's vehicals on our insurance even though they "own" their own cars. And this mom isn't even driving it so it makes even more sense to shift the responsibility of insurance to those who will be driving it.
I believe the Lord asks us to be wise stewards as well. But Jesus' words were to break through the deceitfulness of their stewardship. So farms are owned by the children and mothers live on social security and receive state aid.
I don't have a problem with the car insurance situation if what they are doing is fully disclosed to their insurance company. So if the parent is NEVER going to be driving that car, then it seems the prudent thing to change the insurance. Our company always asked us the ages of the drivers of any given vehicle. If they are being truthful, all is well. 
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 4:07:25 PM
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Bluethread
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The problem is that the ponzi scheme known as social security, medicare and various other governement eldercare programs has stolen the resources that one generation has available for the care of their relatives on the assumption that people can not be trusted to care for their own. Even if this is sometimes the case, is the government better at providing for those who are indigent and truly in need?
The problem is that Social security and medicare are available to all the elderly regardless of their recources and those of their children. So, many well off families are receiving funds that are taken from people who are striving to make ends meet and that isn't even a 100% funds transfer, the government rakes off a percentage for providing this "service".
This mess has lead to some elderly people proudly proclaiming, "I am spending my children's inheritance", while some children warehouse the elderly in their families. Maybe if some of us were allowed to opt out of this system we might be able to see if what Adonai said through Malichi is true. (Mal 3:10) ""Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the Lord Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."" Mind you, that storehouse is not in Washington DC or the state capitals.
Since there is no Temple, it behoove each of us to present our tithes and offerings directly to Yeshua. How can we do this you ask. (Mt 25:40)"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'"
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/14/2009 4:15:05 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 4:17:21 PM
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moon_mouse
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
So farms are owned by the children and mothers live on social security and receive state aid.
In many property shifting situations, the parent doesn't have enough resources to maintain themselves, but too much to qualify for certain forms of aid. By shifting ownership of the property, a paper situation can be created that allows the parent to live with dignity. On the one hand the government creates the situation through its qualification rules, but on the other hand provides legal methods for shifting property that adult children and aging parents can use as a "work around".
quote:
I don't have a problem with the car insurance situation if what they are doing is fully disclosed to their insurance company. So if the parent is NEVER going to be driving that car, then it seems the prudent thing to change the insurance. Our company always asked us the ages of the drivers of any given vehicle. If they are being truthful, all is well.
Why does it matter if the mother is driving the car or not, as long as the rules are followed? If the insurance company only requires, for example, that drivers on a family's policy be related by blood, adoption, or marriage, and does not require that they live in the same house or be financially supported by the policy holder, what's the problem?
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 5:10:57 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
One woman brought up the question of her mother giving up her driver's license. But her mother wants to keep her car.
Another woman says "Be sure and put the insurance in your name now as an additional car. That way you can really lower the insurance." Her sister, a believer, agrees. (I think this deceitful and NOT the way believing people should live.)
I think it depends. The mother can't drive without a license. Why should she pay any insurance? I assume the car will not be used exclusively for the transportation of the mother. No matter what the plan is, it is unrealistic. If the car is to be used for other purposes, insurance expenses can be paid by the daughter. Legality is another matter. Check the insurance laws in your state.
quote:
Then the subject of transferring the wealth of parents to children comes up. They all agree (believing and unbelieving) that this is wise. And we know the result. That means we are paying for the care of their family members when they go to the nursing home, for their medical care, or when they go into subsidized housing because of their low income, etc.
I think this is how the world does live. But is it how believing people should live? Are we to live like the world? Isn't this just what Jesus was talking about when He said the Pharisees take what could be used to help their parents and 'give it to God'? I believe so.
There are legal ways to account for the money. But I am not sure what the issue is. I know a nonchristian who assumed control of his mother's property so that the nursing home expenses fell to the state. The mother is essentially (legally) penniless. He goes to visit her every evening and weekend. That is deceitful. If it is a matter of the elderly parents being unable to keep up with the money because of failing mental capacity, there are legal ways to deal with that. Obviously, people don't want scam artists taking away their money because the elderly person cannot tell the difference between a deceiver and a legitimate businessman.
quote:
My parents told me that their wealth was to be used for their support and care until they died. They believed strongly that that was God's intention. I believe their choice the godly one.
So my question, just like the world? What do you say?
I suggest you read up on it. Money that should be used more or less exclusively for parents elderly years should not be bled off for the pleasure of the kids---obviously, I think we would agree on that. But, there should be some allowance for a little give and take. But no massive amounts of money (say $500 or more) should ever be used without massive accountability, like receipts and common agreement with siblings--so that no single young adult gets exclusive control over money or property.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 5:14:14 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: moon_mouse
Why does it matter if the mother is driving the car or not, as long as the rules are followed? If the insurance company only requires, for example, that drivers on a family's policy be related by blood, adoption, or marriage, and does not require that they live in the same house or be financially supported by the policy holder, what's the problem?
Exactly. My daughter and her husband once lived with us. We may be needed to drive the car occasionally, so my wife and I are on their policy. They get a break financially by having us on the policy because we are over 25. I explained the entire thing with the agent and she said there was no problem legally. My daughter and her husband pay all of the premiums.
If we were never allowed to drive the car, that would be a different matter altogether.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 5:19:39 PM
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moon_mouse
Posts: 435
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
There are legal ways to account for the money. But I am not sure what the issue is. I know a nonchristian who assumed control of his mother's property so that the nursing home expenses fell to the state. The mother is essentially (legally) penniless. He goes to visit her every evening and weekend. That is deceitful.
I don't agree that it necessarily is deceitful. My parents did something similar for my grandmother after her stroke. She didn't have enough money for long term nursing care in a facility of any decent quality. Yet, she had too much money to qualify for most types of government assistance. My parents couldn't afford to support her for any length of time after her money was gone if she just spent it, because I was still at home and they wanted to help me in college and also save for their own retirement. So, they shifted enough of her assets to qualify her for a higher level of assistance, and used the money transfered to them to "gift" her with additional care and a few extras. It's not like my parents or my grandmother were living high off the hog. And it wasn't like grandma was using government assistance to buy beer and bonbons. They were just using every legal means at their disposal to provide a dignified level of care for her.
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/14/2009 5:32:34 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: moon_mouse
I don't agree that it necessarily is deceitful. My parents did something similar for my grandmother after her stroke. She didn't have enough money for long term nursing care in a facility of any decent quality. Yet, she had too much money to qualify for most types of government assistance. My parents couldn't afford to support her for any length of time after her money was gone if she just spent it, because I was still at home and they wanted to help me in college and also save for their own retirement. So, they shifted enough of her assets to qualify her for a higher level of assistance, and used the money transfered to them to "gift" her with additional care and a few extras. It's not like my parents or my grandmother were living high off the hog. And it wasn't like grandma was using government assistance to buy beer and bonbons. They were just using every legal means at their disposal to provide a dignified level of care for her.
I understand. But the gentleman in question has two cars and a motorcycle. He is divorced and doesn't pay any rent. And when his mother first got sick but still had her right mind, he sacrificed a lot of time and energy to look out for her.
My parents are in a different situation. They have some money and I have five siblings, most of whom could kick in something. Between their savings and our contributions, conceivably we could provide nursing care if it comes to that. It probably will.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 3:25:04 AM
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agapist
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I have made a point on a few other thread that ultimately the standard of the Torah is best represented by love than following the commandments. The question posed in this thread, and some of the responses thus far, underscores what I am trying to convey.
Liveloved usually makes a point about the spirit of the law. She is better at it than me, but I'll give it a shot.
Each law has a thousand loopholes; spirit has none. If the question comes up about our actions, they are questionable actions. Figuring them out by scruples only goes so far; things can be found to placate our conscience. The mind is very good at that.
Take it from this standpoint: the insurance company is a loved one, dearly loved: how would you treat them then?
It should not matter that most insurance companies have the upperhand and generally the laws unfairly favor their practices. It should not matter that their concern is the "bottom line" and they reason by heartless actuary charts.
Follow the ONE RULE: "Love does no harm to its neighbor."
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 1:28:24 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Take it from this standpoint: the insurance company is a loved one, dearly loved: how would you treat them then?
It should not matter that most insurance companies have the upperhand and generally the laws unfairly favor their practices. It should not matter that their concern is the "bottom line" and they reason by heartless actuary charts.
Follow the ONE RULE: "Love does no harm to its neighbor."
This is a peculiar standpoint and a unique twist on the Scriptures. A company is not a person, even though the USA has recognized certain characteristics in corporations. The individuals that work for the insurance company and those who own it are my neighors. Therefore, my dealings with those individuals should be handled as with a neighbor. However, one need not necessarily be concerned about the "life and health" of the insurance company.
Even if one were to look at the insurance company as a person, this is a contractual relationship and not an act of charity. What is important in a contractual relationship is that both parties are fully aware of all of the stipulations of the contract and that those stipulations do not require one to violate the Scriptures. One is free to forgo ones contractual rights, however, one is not obligated to do so. Therefore, I think the principle, (Mt 5:37) "Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." is applicable here.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 1:50:43 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Take it from this standpoint: the insurance company is a loved one, dearly loved: how would you treat them then?
It should not matter that most insurance companies have the upperhand and generally the laws unfairly favor their practices. It should not matter that their concern is the "bottom line" and they reason by heartless actuary charts.
Follow the ONE RULE: "Love does no harm to its neighbor."
This is a peculiar standpoint and a unique twist on the Scriptures. A company is not a person, even though the USA has recognized certain characteristics in corporations. The individuals that work for the insurance company and those who own it are my neighors. Therefore, my dealings with those individuals should be handled as with a neighbor. However, one need not necessarily be concerned about the "life and health" of the insurance company.
Even if one were to look at the insurance company as a person, this is a contractual relationship and not an act of charity. What is important in a contractual relationship is that both parties are fully aware of all of the stipulations of the contract and that those stipulations do not require one to violate the Scriptures. One is free to forgo ones contractual rights, however, one is not obligated to do so. Therefore, I think the principle, (Mt 5:37) "Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." is applicable here.
I would agree, Bluethread, that agapist's view is peculiar. That was the problem with Jesus' view as well. Peculiar is a good (and godly) description of those who are of His kingdom. We are a peculiar people. So I take that as a compliment to agapist.
But I do not see it as a 'twist on the Scriptures' at all. The reasoning mind was the mind of the Pharisees. The Christ mind is very different and lives love in all situations. When the love of God takes its rightful place in our lives, He is on the throne, the puny little mind of man is thrown down, and right living results. It does not matter whether we speak of an insurance company or the neighbor next door, we live the eternal yes.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 1:58:42 PM
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car2ner
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But what does that have to do with doing a legal spend down or adding mom's car to your insurance when she gives up her driving license?
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"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 2:17:35 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
But what does that have to do with doing a legal spend down or adding mom's car to your insurance when she gives up her driving license?
I presume you were addressing liveloved. That is the problem with this, "All you need is love." view. It makes some feel good, but it provides no guidance. It says all guidance comes from personal revelation. In that case posting on a forum is a futile execise.
In the case you were talking to me, the application would be to consult the contract and or talk to the agent. If it is alright with them and they will put that in writing, there is no problem. In that case, the insurance company has agreed to accept any additional risk.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/15/2009 3:33:49 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 4:37:24 PM
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Mollymouser
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As a general premise, insurance companies don't care who owns a car, or who pays for the premium ... they care about who will be driving the car, and that is (in part) is how they set premiums. As long as the insurance company is aware that mom's car is no longer being driven by mom, but by daughter -- and the premium is based on that fact -- I don't see any problems with this specific car insurance scenario if the insurance company is willing to provide insurance for it.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
The subject of parental finances and "legal spend-downs" is not as clear, from a moral/ethical standpoint.
First, I think we can all disagree that any attempt to illegally give away or spend down, distort or hide parental finances for purposes of acquiring "low income" benefits" would be WRONG (illegal, immoral, and unethical.)
So the question is ... what about legal actions which permit a parent to give away/spend their money so that they would then qualify for "low income" benefits? And are we talking about the ethics of the parents who would receive the benefits, or the ethics of the children who may be receiving the assets and who could --possibly -- provide $$ to help support their parents in lieu of government benefits?
I recognize that not everyone shares my views, but here's what comes to mind....
Government "low income" benefits are paid for by the taxpayers. I get frustrated and even angry with those who I believe are seeking to obtain benefits that they are not legitimately entitled to ... whether that be unemployment benefits, disability benefits, food stamps, etc. Why? Because I think it's stealing. Don't misinterpret this .... I have no problem with truly needy and entitled people claiming benefits that they are entitled to, providing that they accept only the minimum amount of assistance they need and for no longer than they need -- while actively seeking other options, if applicable.
I think a lot of aged/elderly people would, in all honesty, prefer to live with family members and spend their last days surrounded by loved ones and participating in a household ... rather than living alone or in assisted living. But I don't know that our modern-day lifestyles are set up to permit this to happen anymore. Where people once turned to their children for assistance (or the Church), they now turn to the government.
And that's just sad.
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 4:47:14 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
So the question is ... what about legal actions which permit a parent to give away/spend their money so that they would then qualify for "low income" benefits? And are we talking about the ethics of the parents who would receive the benefits, or the ethics of the children who may be receiving the assets and who could --possibly -- provide $$ to help support their parents in lieu of government benefits?
I recognize that not everyone shares my views, but here's what comes to mind....
I agree. That's why I gave the example of my coworker. I have little doubt that if all of his mother's assets were liquidated, they would not begin to pay for her nursing home expenses. It would be like pouring money down a rat hole.
On the other hand, two cars and a motor cycle seems a bit much.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 5:06:13 PM
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Kerrlaw
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Many older people transfer their assets to their children because they know that if they do it five years before going into a nursing home (it used to be three years) that medicaid (i.e. the American taxpayer) will pay for their nursing home expense if they have little or no assets. They do not want "the nursing home" to get money that they would rather pass on to their children.
We are kidding ourselves if we try to rationalize this in any other way.
So, in my mind, the question simply becomes: Is it unethical/sinful to use legal means to benefit our children at the expense of the rest of the taxpayers?
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That which does not kill us makes us fatter. ~ crankius
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 5:20:38 PM
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Kerrlaw
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quote:
The difference in both scenarios? In one situation, the banks are out the $$. In the other situation, the taxpayer is.
Which really means that everyone who pays higher credit card interest is out the money.
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 5:20:58 PM
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Bluethread
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Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's. The present system is so messed up, coming up with an answer that is moral, legal and practical is nearly impossible. I think it was Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendel Holmes who said that it is the duty of every citizen to take every advantage and tax deduction as possible, because that forces the government to write laws correctly.
I do think it is immoral, if not unconstitutional, for the government to take resources from one citizen with the threat of imprisonment and give those recources to another. Especially since these days to other need not be a citizen. However, this is the system that there is here in the USA. So, what are we to do? This is one place where the mormons apprear to be on track. They encourage family self sufficiency, emergancy planning and have an alternative social network.
Oye, next year in Jerusalem!!
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/15/2009 5:27:49 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 7:58:04 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
So, in my mind, the question simply becomes: Is it unethical/sinful to use legal means to benefit our children at the expense of the rest of the taxpayers?
Or the question could be put this way:
How does God view personal responsibility? IOW, is it OK with God for me to give 'my' money away so that others care for me?
Is it OK with God for me to spend all of my money, not saving for my future needs?
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Just like the world? - 10/15/2009 8:56:53 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1759
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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I doubt that it's OK with God that 'the plunder of the poor is in our storehouses' in the first place. Given the way we all live with wealth, I tend to wonder if there is such a thing as an ethical way to deal with abundance that we should not have hoarded in the first place.
We are stuck with greed and affluence because or society doesn't exactly give us a livable out. That's the way first century believers had to live with the slavery structure of their day. They were neither condemned nor commanded to abandon it... but it wasn't a godly way to live, and neither is the way we live daily in materialism, self indulgence and greed. I think we're stuck with it, but at least we can call a spade a spade.
I don't think transferring insurance or giving away assets in order to qualify for more benefits are additionally unethical, on top of the unethical situation as I see it already. (Personally, I consider the decision of a society to only provide care and housing for asset-less seniors to be closer to the core problem in the giving-away-the-house scenario.)
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