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Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/4/2008 9:40:18 PM
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Raptorman
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Some of you may be familiar with a small animal named Microraptor gui that was found in China a few years back. It is a small creature, touted by some paleontologists as "proof positive" that dinosaurs and birds are linked by genealogy. Here are a few pictures where you can see its skeleton (I apologize to any moderators if this breaches rules about posting links to other sites; feel free to remove it if it does):
Microraptor bones at DeviantArt
The evolutionists are excited about Microraptor because it looks like a small dromaeosaur (or "Raptor" dinosaur), with unmistakable impressions of feathers that so far have given no indications of being hoaxed. With fully developed flight feathers on its arms and legs, it has come to be hailed by some as a "living biplane," and to my knowledge, it is the only known vertebrate with four wings.
The species itself was involved in the infamous Archaeoraptor hoax, its tail being attached to the fossil of a bird to make the end product look like the definitive missing link between birds and dinosaurs. But this particular fossil appears genuine, by all accounts.
To be sure, some YECs, like Answers in Genesis, have immediately pounced on it and sneered at the find, claiming that Microraptor was just a flightless bird with some dinosaurian characteristics. This claim has proven severely lacking when I have taken a look at the Microraptor skeleton. Its skull and pelvic structures are identical to those of a Raptor, and perhaps the most compelling bit has come from its tail. The animal's tail is long and bony (a trait rarely found in birds), and is stiffened along its entire length by strips of bone, to make it into a stiff rudder. As far as I know, this attribute has never been found in birds, but only in dinosaurs, particularly the raptors and the hadrosaurs (or "duckbills"). If it were not for the feathers, AiG would likely just see it as another tiny raptor, like the American Bambiraptor.
Ladies and gentlemen, we must admit that Microraptor is indeed a dinosaur, despite the obvious presence of feathers. It may not look good for people who oppose the idea that dinos and birds are linked, but it has to be admitted anyway. I sent a letter to AiG, telling them this information. So far, I don't seem to have gotten any reply.
For the most part, I respect AiG, but my indignation has erupted like a Hawaiian volcano at this level of professional incompetence. They have a committee of PhD biologists and paleontologists who could have pointed this out, instead of leaving it to amateur dinosaur enthusiasts like myself. Answers in Genesis should have corrected this information long before I got to it! They have an obligation to present scientific truth, even if it might hurt their case. Being lazy and calling Microraptor a bird just because it has feathers (and paleontologist Alan Fedduccia says so) not only is a disgrace to the people to whom they are trying to minister, it is also a severe disservice to God himself, a Creator who is Truth incarnate (John 14:6), and who holds objective truth to be of great importance.
The Bible itself reveals information that could hurt its case for some people. When Jesus rose from the dead, and women were the first to see Him and the empty tomb, it would be an embarrassing situation for Christians in first-century Palestine. Women were sadly seen as second-class citizens back then (sorry, ladies  ), and were not considered reliable eyewitnesses. But the disciples reported it anyway.
Basically, if God did not have a problem with women being the first to witness the Resurrection (knowing full well how the culture would react to that kind of news), then we certainly should not have a problem admitting that some dinosaurs indeed had feathers. Frankly, I see feathered dinos as part of God's holy creation, being created as distinct animals which share no genealogical relationship with birds anymore than they do with elephants or squid. Dinosaurs and birds already share characteristics with birds (the more agile and smaller ones likely being warm-blooded, certain species brooded over their nests like birds, etc.), so feathers should not come as an Earth-shattering surprise. Just another trait they have in common.
Once again, I apologize for the long rant. I just hope this will help remind us that we sometimes get things wrong. Only the Bible is infallible, not the ones who follow it. And to the creationists who are asserting there never were any feathered dinosaurs, I beseech you to stop. Just admit it and get on with life. Or if you have compelling data that Microraptor was indeed a bird, feel free to share it with me, since you are as much a servant of the God of truth as I try to be.
Thank you for your time, everyone. That's all for now.
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/4/2008 10:38:01 PM
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Jhud
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Personally I don't have a problem with feathered dinosaurs, and Microraptor seems to be the best bet for such a creature, but I think that scientist have to be careful not to see feathers everywhere - some scientists are skeptical:
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/4/2008 10:58:11 PM
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drmark
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quote:
And to the creationists who are asserting there never were any feathered dinosaurs, I beseech you to stop. And just exactly how does a feathered dinosaur alter the YEC position? AiG is not my Bible, Raptorman!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 11:30:08 AM
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PolarBear
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Good call Raptorman. Discoveries of "missing links" do not disprove special Creation because it is certainly conceivable that God created all kinds of intermediary species.
Of course, that is somewhat dangerous to say because it sort of helps make special creation non-falsifiable. That may be true, but we can still build a solid case *for* it through other means, such as the commonness of convergence, probability of mutations adding useful information, etc.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 11:44:41 AM
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drmark
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quote:
we can still build a solid case for...probability of mutations adding useful information, Oh really? I've asked for 18 months to see just one scientific article showing any mutation which adds useful information. You must have dozens of examples to "build a solid case", PolarBear. Please post one.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 12:21:35 PM
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searcher1
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Looks like a long arm rat to me. Keep searching Raptorman you will evetually prove evolutation to YOURSELF.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 12:32:23 PM
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drmark
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I really don't know what Raptorman is trying to prove, searcher1. As far as I know from his posts, he is a creationist.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 1:57:39 PM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
we can still build a solid case for...probability of mutations adding useful information, Oh really? I've asked for 18 months to see just one scientific article showing any mutation which adds useful information. You must have dozens of examples to "build a solid case", PolarBear. Please post one.
Huh? I mean that the (very slim) probability of mutation adding useful information builds a solid case for CREATION!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 2:15:06 PM
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drmark
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Got it - the improbability of mutations adding useful info. Correct, PB! Thanks for clarifying.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 2:15:38 PM
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futuredocter37
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Its a bird, its a dinosaur, its, well it was really microraptor. Well why couldn't they call it birdasaur, just kidding. It certainly is an interesting find and an interesting name.
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KEN
Have you perfectly obeyed the ten commandments?? If God gave you justice will you go to heaven or hell???
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 4:01:15 PM
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Aristocrat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
For the most part, I respect AiG, How can you respect their twisted truths to promote their profitable agenda?
quote:
They have an obligation to present scientific truth, even if it might hurt their case. Being lazy and calling Microraptor a bird just because it has feathers (and paleontologist Alan Fedduccia says so) not only is a disgrace to the people to whom they are trying to minister, it is also a severe disservice to God himself, a Creator who is Truth incarnate (John 14:6), and who holds objective truth to be of great importance. However, it keeps their foot in the door. They don't care what the evidence is telling them.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 4:28:44 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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excuse me while I laugh.
So a tiny dinosaur with feathers is going to prove evolution? Really?
I thought the platypus did that? I mean those intermediary species evolved that way right? Last time I looked a platypus is still a platy and its beak is there and no feathers are growing.
This whole exercise in unbelief in the Word of God will only lead people into the final damnation that every unbelieving evolutionist will receive.
God was present at the creation of the world. He made everything in the six days of creation. Nothing has evolved, nothing is going to evolve.
The atheistical driven mindset of evolosophy is never going to assist man in knowing his origins or his destiny. Gods word does all this.
I saw the coolest thing the other day, In peru the folks back a few hundred years like riding dinosaurs. so much so that they made thousands of clay figurines and etched stones and buried them with their dead. You know the Incas riding a triceritops and fighting some other allosaurus But hey who cares about that when weve got theories, lots and lots of theories. Wow those dinos didnt die out 65 million years ago, or maybe not even a few hundred years ago. But its important to keep up the lie, the ever present doubting and acting as if God's word is false and science is only trusted discerner; from what Ive seen these scientists are one-eyed observers of nature and a deaf listener to the creator.
And that duck billed dinosaur? you know the one that was found in the 1800's, but its funny that the aborigines in Australia were able to describe one splashing around in one of their swamps ( they drew a picture of it)...yea....and this was recorded 13 years before the first bone of a duck billed dinosaur was unearthed....bet you didnt hear that in grade school?
John
< Message edited by Gloryandgrace -- 2/5/2008 4:40:23 PM >
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 5:04:53 PM
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Raptorman
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Searcher1, I am a creationist, if you must know. And frankly, a lizard skeleton looks like a rat, superficially! It's the tiny differences in anatomy that tell us it's a dromaeosaurid dinosaur. I'm making no effort to prove evolution to myself. It would be nice if I was eating dinosaur meat at Thanksgiving, or if any parrot or canary I got as a pet would make my house Jurassic Park. Alas, I do not think that to be the case. I am not trying to say that birds came from dinosaurs, only pointing out the presence of feathers as a common trait the two groups shared.
And if Microraptor is not enough, also google the species name "Dilong Paradoxus." It was a small species of Tyrannosaur with impressions of what are unquestionably feathers.
And thank you, everyone, for your comments. I appreciate them. 
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/5/2008 5:40:17 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
And if Microraptor is not enough, also google the species name "Dilong Paradoxus." It was a small species of Tyrannosaur with impressions of what are unquestionably feathers.
While I have no problem with a feathered dinosaur, I would have to say based on the research of Prof Theagarten Lingham-Soliar that it is not unquestionably so.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 7:56:51 AM
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BVZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
we can still build a solid case for...probability of mutations adding useful information, Oh really? I've asked for 18 months to see just one scientific article showing any mutation which adds useful information. You must have dozens of examples to "build a solid case", PolarBear. Please post one.
Nylon bug.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 8:32:18 AM
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drmark
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This is nothing more than the adaptation of bacteria to feeding on nylon waste. It is NOT evolution resulting from mutations adding useful information!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 9:03:51 AM
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Jhud
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I would think the nylon bug discussion is about as far off topic in this thread as we get around here.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 9:59:11 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6770
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quote:
Oh come on, the Big Bang thread got WAY more off-topic than this!
Yeah, it reminds me a bit of the 'nuclear option' back when I was in debate, the purpose of which was to argue that any particular policy proposal would eventually lead to nuclear war - no matter how distantly related a proposal might be. It was sort of an in-joke, and it was funny to watch how convoluted the discussion would get as one tried to draw a link between an anti-poverty program, or spending on education, or stricter law enforcement, and destruction of civilization by nuclear war. It was a bit like the Chewbacca Defense.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 11:48:39 AM
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Aristocrat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
This whole exercise in unbelief in the Word of God will only lead people into the final damnation that every unbelieving evolutionist will receive.
God was present at the creation of the world. He made everything in the six days of creation. Nothing has evolved, nothing is going to evolve.
The atheistical driven mindset of evolosophy is never going to assist man in knowing his origins or his destiny. Gods word does all this.
John
That opinion belongs in church, not a science lab. There are many evolutionist Christian scientists who will be way ahead of you in that proverbial line where the first shall be last. I would try some humility if I were you....glory and grace.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 12:50:41 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
That opinion belongs in church, not a science lab. There are many evolutionist Christian scientists who will be way ahead of you in that proverbial line where the first shall be last. I would try some humility if I were you....glory and grace.
Aristocrat:
Maybe thats why the science lab has stopped being science and started being "prove the atheist right lab". God has been left out, the atheistical presupposition that leaves all science in a quandry when its done with its lab rat experiments.
When the scientist goes home and sits down, he is still a human being in need of what God alone must give him/her. When the basics of human need are so ignored outside the lab what shall be the outcome when the observer in the lab has come in determined to know nothing but what an atheistical mindset will receive? Id say his science will suffer, his observations will be clouded and his conclusions.....well, they will only reflect the emptiness of humanity in rebellion to God.
When the dinosaurs cease to glorify God in creation, they are twisted to aid man's glorification of himself in some form or another.
Its not arrogance to believe God's word, its arrogance to believe that humility is a cowering favorer of someones claimed scientific theory.
God was there at creation, you and I were not. God is not a liar, man on the other hand lies every day. The very lies some posters speak of pertaining to the AOG or the AIG or ICR etc etc. The average armchair dinosaurian wants truth, so seek truth from someone who offers it all the time God himself.
It was God's idea "thou shalt not bear false witness", therefore while the lab worker is busy with his experiments and observations he is reminded that his witness is being examined by God, that the scientist is under observation and must give account for his conclusions. God is not going to be judged by men, nor is God going to remove the slightest guilt from a scientist that lies to his fellow man that God doesnt exist because the universe and dinosaurs 'just happened' randomly to evolve-according to the witness of that lab scientist.
When you start with a lie you end with a lie.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 1:02:01 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3171
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
God is not going to be judged by men, nor is God going to remove the slightest guilt from a scientist that lies to his fellow man that God doesnt exist because the universe and dinosaurs 'just happened' randomly to evolve-according to the witness of that lab scientist. Actually John, no lab scientist has "witnessed" any example of evolution in the recorded history of mankind. Evolution is nothing more than the faith-based conclusions of secular humanists based on faulty assumptions of naturalism and materialism. Unfortunately, some Christians have been deceived into accepting these misguided conclusions as "scientific facts". The real question, then, is how will God will judge His children who applaud this deception instead of taking Him at His Word. I do not know - nor do I plan to find out!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 1:12:09 PM
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futuredocter37
Posts: 139
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Oh come on, the Big Bang thread got WAY more off-topic than this!
Yeah, it reminds me a bit of the 'nuclear option' back when I was in debate, the purpose of which was to argue that any particular policy proposal would eventually lead to nuclear war - no matter how distantly related a proposal might be. It was sort of an in-joke, and it was funny to watch how convoluted the discussion would get as one tried to draw a link between an anti-poverty program, or spending on education, or stricter law enforcement, and destruction of civilization by nuclear war. It was a bit like the Chewbacca Defense.
I think Chewey was a transitional species betweend wookies and people.
_____________________________
KEN
Have you perfectly obeyed the ten commandments?? If God gave you justice will you go to heaven or hell???
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 4:45:35 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
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quote:
Evolution is nothing more than the faith-based conclusions of secular humanists based on faulty assumptions of naturalism and materialism. Unfortunately, some Christians have been deceived into accepting these misguided conclusions as "scientific facts". The real question, then, is how will God will judge His children who applaud this deception instead of taking Him at His Word. I do not know - nor do I plan to find out!
DrMark:
Well said. In fact there could be a million transistional species from one to another, but if God said he is creator and 'there is nothing made that is not made by him" then atheistical evolutionary propoganda bragging about any transistional species really proves nothing against the creationists nor God's revealed testimony in the scriptures.
Since those Incas were riding triceritops its no small jump of imagination that children played with small dinosaurs in some places in the world.
It would be wonderful to get the account of some child wrecking the evolutionary theory in one fell swoop. "I waz widing the bronto until mommy said no, ". But thanks to the dial-a-lie carbon 14 dating process every thing dated living or dead must have 6 zeros behind it. All remains are safely hidden behind the veil of evolosophy.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 2/6/2008 4:58:51 PM
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futuredocter37
Posts: 139
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Why can't Chewey be a transitional form.
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Have you perfectly obeyed the ten commandments?? If God gave you justice will you go to heaven or hell???
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