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My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 6:32:21 AM
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LedZeppelin
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Hi everyone. This is my first post on this forum. I have a question about what actually constitutes a "Christian?"
Every time I hear of a Christian person that does some very obvious wrong, I hear the same defense over and over. "Well, they're not actually a true Christian, because a true Christian wouldn't do that". It's the same as the no true Scotsman fallacy where the definition of something changes to suit the condition. From Wikipedia:
No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy where the meaning of a term is ad hoc redefined to make a desired assertion about it true. It is a type of self-sealing argument.
The no true Scotsman fallacy goes like this:
Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.
As you can see, the definition in this case of a Scotsman changes to suit the circumstance. And the no true Scotsman fallacy is constantly used by Christians in the same manner.
So for eg, the inquisitions and bloody crusades through history and the Puritan witch burnings weren't perpetrated at all by Christians, because no "true Christian" would do such things.
It's a bit like when Christians say for eg, that just going to church every week doesn't make you a Christian in the same way that living in a garage makes you a car. However, I am not satisfied with this as it sounds like a cop out. This type of reason seems to be an easy way out of any Christian wrong doing-even grievous wrong doing like murder and torture. Because anytime any Christian believer is found or proved to have done wrong, they are dismissed as not being a true Christian.
I also find it ridiculous to accept that in the end, people such as Popes, pastors, preachers, bishops, cardinals, rectors etc are labelled as not being a true Christian if they are caught or proved in some wrong doing. To say that one of the corrupt Popes through history wasn't really a Christain to me sounds ludicrous.
So this is what I personally think. Yes I will agree that going to church every week does not make you of good Christian character. However, I personally believe that if a person believes in Christianity and is active in their faith such as regualar church attendance, then by definition ( in other words technically ), they are a Christian. They may not be necessarily a good Christian, but they are still technically a Christian.
To me, the line has to be drawn somewhere where we define someone as a Christian. This business of "true" Christian versus a false one seems to me to be constantly shifting the goal posts. Constantly redefining what a Christian is so as to never implicate bad Christian behaviour. For when that behaviour is found to be bad, the simple solution is to dismiss them as not being "true Christians".
To me, the line drawn in the sand is if you believe and are active in your faith, regardless of how good or bad you are, then you are technically a Christian. So that no other Christian can dismiss you as not being a true Christian if you do bad.
Or let me put it another way by way of analogy. Many of us have had bad experiences with mechanics for eg. Either by way of over charging or poor and incompetent service. Now, if one particular mechanic is crooked, no one says "well he's not a real mechanic". If a person has gone through the correct certifiable trade course and has an official license, he is a mechanic-period. Even an incompetent mechanic cannot be dismissed an not being a real mechanic if he his training has been complete and is licensed.
As far as I'm concerned, it's the same for Christians. I am sick to death of all these excuses for bad, corrupt and vile behaviour by Christians as "not being true Christians". My definition is if you are a believer and are active in the faith, then you technically are a Christian. Good or bad as you are, it doesn't change that fact and you can't be dismissed as not being a "true Christian".
Do you agree?
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 7:07:24 AM
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GrahamCracker
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As you may have figured out, the definition of Christianity has evolved to a broad usage. Thus we have things like Catholic Christians, born-again Christians (as opposed to non born again ones). CS Lewis pointed this out in his book Mere Christianity. People can call themselves a Christian but will be refused acknowledgment by other Christians.
quote:
As far as I'm concerned, it's the same for Christians. I am sick to death of all these excuses for bad, corrupt and vile behaviour by Christians as "not being true Christians". My definition is if you are a believer and are active in the faith, then you technically are a Christian. Good or bad as you are, it doesn't change that fact and you can't be dismissed as not being a "true Christian".
Do you agree?
Yes, but with qualification. People can profess being a Christian but no one can read the intents of their hearts. I am one who believes Christians can do some pretty vile things. But again, I don't know their hearts. I can say that their behavior denies their profession.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/30/2009 7:15:15 AM >
_____________________________
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"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 7:25:03 AM
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LedZeppelin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I am one who believes Christians can do some pretty vile things. But again, I don't know their hearts. I can say that their behavior denies their profession.
Agreed. And that it my point. That there are good Christians and bad Christians. But they are still Christians nevertheless. I know many people that would consider believers with behaviour that "denies their profession" as you say, and instantly dismiss them as not being a "true Christian". Like I say, it sounds like a weak excuse and a cop out.
And I can't imagine what it sounds like to unbelievers when this is what it sounds like to me (believer). I think Christians do themselves an incredible disservice when they attempt to palm off all unsavoury behaviour from professing believers as not being a "true Christian". I believe that they would appear far more credible to unbelievers if they were just open and honest and admitted that Christians have perpetrated all manner of evil and corrupt behaviours. And not this tired excuse of "just because someone regularly goes to church doesn't make them a Christian".
Ummm........technically, yes it does. As I said, it does not necessarily make you a good Christian, but it does qualify you as a Christian-even if that person is rotten to the core.
< Message edited by LedZeppelin -- 10/30/2009 7:31:26 AM >
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 10:41:06 AM
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crankius
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So what is a Christian? Have you defined it?
A Christian is a Christ-follower, someone who has believed on Christ as their Savior (and are thus reborn in the Spirit, John 3:5), which entails understanding that they are a sinner in need of a redeemer, and that there is a God who demands both justice and righteousness.
Do Christians fail? Absolutely. Our flesh is in a battle with the Spirit, and it is up to us to obey the Spirit, but "We all stumble in many things..." James 3:2a, and "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things you wish." Gal 5:17.
Will a Christ-follower remain in a pattern of sin? Not without intense conviction of the Holy Spirit. "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." 1 John 4:13
Going to church, not murdering someone, joining a club, being on a music team, signing membership documents, being a pastor, never sinning again: none of these things qualify you as a Christian.
edit to fix word 
< Message edited by crankius -- 10/30/2009 10:48:49 AM >
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Church Covenants
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 11:33:26 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
I am sick to death of all these excuses for bad, corrupt and vile behaviour by Christians as "not being true Christians". My definition is if you are a believer and are active in the faith, then you technically are a Christian. Good or bad as you are, it doesn't change that fact and you can't be dismissed as not being a "true Christian".
I would not die over what others say or don't say, believe or don't believe, do or don't do. I pray I'm willing to die for what I know as truth, my Beloved Jesus.
You can 'draw a line' if you want to. But you're wasting your time. It is God's line to draw and it will be drawn at the judgment. All who believe will be judged righteous through Jesus Christ. Until that time, if you do believe, don't focus on others. Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of your faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him Who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. Hebrews 12:2-3
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps. . . I Peter 2:21.
Consider Jesus. Take your eyes off the world, even the world of those who say they believe. Fix your eyes on Jesus and all else will turn strangely dim. Bless you as you choose Jesus, Liveloved
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 10/30/2009 11:40:03 AM >
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 11:41:16 AM
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MrFribbles
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LedZeppelin,
I agree with your frustration about how so many Christians want to disown their brothers and sisters over embarrassment. It's really a shame.
However, I disagree over how you define a Christian. For instance, you say -
quote:
I personally believe that if a person believes in Christianity and is active in their faith such as regualar church attendance, then by definition ( in other words technically ), they are a Christian.
Being defined as a Christian isn't about believing in Christianity, or about doing the right Christian-y things. It all comes down to who one puts their faith in. Check out these verses -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9-10&version=ESV
Someone can go to church every Sunday, but if there's never a heart connection where they realize they need to put their trust in Jesus, then they're not ever going to be a Christian. They may look like one on the outside, but God doesn't judge people based on what they look like on the outside - He looks into our hearts.
Anyway, I know that wasn't the main point of your post. But getting back to your main point, I recommend that you pick up a copy of Donald Miller's book, Blue Like Jazz. I think you would enjoy it.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 6:06:01 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LedZeppelin
Agreed. And that it my point. That there are good Christians and bad Christians. But they are still Christians nevertheless. I know many people that would consider believers with behaviour that "denies their profession" as you say, and instantly dismiss them as not being a "true Christian". Like I say, it sounds like a weak excuse and a cop out.
And I can't imagine what it sounds like to unbelievers when this is what it sounds like to me (believer). I think Christians do themselves an incredible disservice when they attempt to palm off all unsavoury behaviour from professing believers as not being a "true Christian". I believe that they would appear far more credible to unbelievers if they were just open and honest and admitted that Christians have perpetrated all manner of evil and corrupt behaviours. And not this tired excuse of "just because someone regularly goes to church doesn't make them a Christian".
Ummm........technically, yes it does. As I said, it does not necessarily make you a good Christian, but it does qualify you as a Christian-even if that person is rotten to the core.
I usually try to avoid getting dragged into conversations that force me to decide whether or not a specific person is really a Christian. On the basis of the best understanding of scripture that I know, a person is a Christian who has accepted Christ as their savior. Then, they go on and fail to follow through with the commands of Christ. In my thinking they haven't "proven" themselves to be unsaved. They may not be, in spite of what they claim. I just don't join in the judgment. When discussing the genuineness of their profession, I advise them (if they want my advice) to repent and follow through with attendance in a Bible believing church with the requisite obedience.
In general terms, people who simply make the claim by virtue of baptism or some church rite, I don't consider them Christians. They are nominal Christians, Christians in name only.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 7:30:28 PM
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LedZeppelin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Someone can go to church every Sunday, but if there's never a heart connection where they realize they need to put their trust in Jesus, then they're not ever going to be a Christian. They may look like one on the outside, but God doesn't judge people based on what they look like on the outside - He looks into our hearts.
Hey thanks for the response and to everyone else. What I notice about all these responses is that they are taken from the perspective of Christians. A Christian is commenting on what it means to be a Christian. I am talking about the perspective of unbelievers and others. You say for eg, that a Christian is someone who has Christ in their hearts-not just outwardly.
However, what concern is that when it comes to the witness to unbelievers? I believe none. When an unbeliever sees on the television news about yet another corrupt television evangelist for eg, does he/she take into consideration their "heart"? They don't. Or another priest for eg that is charged with sexual assault of a minor. The unbeliever is not interested in what the inner heart of the priest is towards God.
The unbeliever takes these cases on face value that someone is a pastor, priest, elder etc and never even considers or even cares about the heart of such people. If the news reports a sexaul predator priest, the unbeliever simply accepts that the person is a Christian. And if you say to them that their heart is not right, as you suggest, they will tell you they don't care. They are a priest and a Christian and that is all that matters. All this stuff about their heart is only details.
It's a bit like those who flew the planes into the twin towers. Were they Muslims? George Bush claims they weren't because their actions discount any claim to any genuine Islamic faith. I claim otherwise. They may have been murderous terrorist Muslims, but they were still Muslims.
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 10/30/2009 7:52:39 PM
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drmark
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Welcome to the Forums, LZ! Sorry to jump on your first thread, but I'm afraid the basic question of your OP is fatally flawed. Christianity is so much more than a religion defined by its self-proclaimed adherents. Christianity is actually a relationship with the Triune God of the universe Who created each and every one of us and knows everything about us. He actually reaches out to find us, we do not reach out to find Him. Thus it is relatively meaningless how any one person defines a Christian because God is defining His relationship in and with and through His own children. I hope that makes some sense, LZ.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/7/2009 1:24:37 AM
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psalm19-7
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Charles Spurgeon said the Law serves “a most necessary purpose” and that sinners “will never accept grace until they tremble before a just and holy Law.”
False converts have never “crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts” (Galatians 5:24). Therefore, like the pig, their natural inclination is to go back to wallowing in the cool dirty mud. Pigs need to wallow in the mud to cool their flesh. So it is with false converts. They never truly repented, and their flesh is not dead with Christ. Instead, their flesh is still burning with unlawful passions, lust, wicked thoughts and perversions. The heat of lust is too much for a sinful heart; the false convert (sinner) will always return to the filth in the cool mud. These people will die in their sins and spend eternity in Hell.
When someone is truly and soundly saved, you will have trouble keeping up with them. Someone who is soundly saved will desire the sincere milk of the word and cannot get enough of it. They’ll discipline themselves to do what is right in Gods eyes. They have a burning desire to share their faith to all who will listen. They have a burning desire to crucify their flesh and stop sinning in order to please God
A healthy lamb will have a healthy appetite. Someone who’s soundly saved will desire the sincere milk of the Word. They will discipline themselves. They will begin reading their bible every single day and can’t get enough of it. Start with the Gospel of John. Find a bible-believing church to attend and seek fellowship with other Christians. Remember to seek God and pray to him daily and you will fulfill your purpose in life.
http://www.psalm19-7.com
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/7/2009 8:18:09 AM
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Herschel1859
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quote:
Do Christians fail? Absolutely. Our flesh is in a battle with the Spirit, and it is up to us to obey the Spirit, but "We all stumble in many things..." James 3:2a, and "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things you wish." Gal 5:17.
Romans 8:1 1.There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Are you walking after the flesh, or, are you walking after the Spirit? Are you doing Gods Will or are you not doing Gods will? These are questions that we really must answer. The Word of God is absolute in it's authority and will interpret itself for you, but you must seek, knock and ask. God will through the Spirit of His word, renew your mind to things of the spirit and his word but you must "continue in His word", for if you do, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (Hmmm, now where on earth did I read that?)
We are truly, "sinners", saved by the grace of God. Jesus accepts us just as we are. We can't clean ourselves up enough to deserve to come to God. We are sinners when we accept Jesus, and sinners we remain after He has washed us in the blood. The only thing different about us is that we now have begun a process of becoming like Jesus. This process will last our entire life. It is the church's responsibility to do two things. Preach the gospel of Christ and to perfect itself and the saints until we are made to be like Him. : Ephesians 4
11.And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12.For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13.Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14.That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15.But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16.From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/15/2009 9:34:57 AM
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freeman444
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I had a next door neighbor who as for as I know never went to Church. But if you did not know him and you knew his attitude and ways, you would say that was the best Christian man I have ever known.
How do we judge individuals like that. I don't believe it would be up to us. If this man was judged by a Christian standard, he would probably be considered a better Christian than I. I believe it is up to God to judge, not us.
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/20/2009 4:52:49 PM
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seekeratthesea
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My definition of a true Christian:
quote:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Those who presume to qualify/disqualify the Christianity of another are on very thin ice in my opinion, as I believe they invite greater judgment upon themselves.
_____________________________
Check out the first chapter of Elijah the Tishbite
Elijah the Tishbite
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/20/2009 5:04:48 PM
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rcjames
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A Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ, has repented, is saved by Grace through faith,is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, lives the life and reasonalbe service that we are called to live;
(Rom 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
And is a witness to Jesus Christ;
(Act 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
That and do the things Christ told us to do;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
And
(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/20/2009 5:08:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: seekeratthesea
Those who presume to qualify/disqualify the Christianity of another are on very thin ice in my opinion, as I believe they invite greater judgment upon themselves.
So James was on thin ice when under the guidance of the Holy Spirit he penned;
(Jas 2:17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(Jas 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(Jas 2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(Jas 2:20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/20/2009 5:12:33 PM
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seekeratthesea
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: seekeratthesea
Those who presume to qualify/disqualify the Christianity of another are on very thin ice in my opinion, as I believe they invite greater judgment upon themselves.
So James was on thin ice when under the guidance of the Holy Spirit he penned;
(Jas 2:17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(Jas 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(Jas 2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(Jas 2:20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Thanks
RC
No...I don't think James is on thin ice for writing those verses.
_____________________________
Check out the first chapter of Elijah the Tishbite
Elijah the Tishbite
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/21/2009 6:33:12 AM
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souljaboy
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What is a Christian? Someone who is dead. The reason why we are so disunited is mainly due to the fact that we are not dead.
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/21/2009 10:31:05 AM
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seekeratthesea
Posts: 32
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Dead to sin?
Dead to the world?
Yes, that's fine but Romans 10:9 is still how you get there.
quote:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
_____________________________
Check out the first chapter of Elijah the Tishbite
Elijah the Tishbite
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RE: My question about how you define a Christian? - 11/21/2009 11:16:31 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Yes, that's fine but Romans 10:9 is still how you get there. Actually, Romans 10:9 tells when we get there. Ephesians 2:8 tells how we get there - by God's grace, through faith in Christ.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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