|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/13/2009 4:37:24 PM
|
|
|
josephus777
Posts: 12
Joined: 4/13/2009
Status: offline
|
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?[/size]
_____________________________
And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/13/2009 5:08:39 PM
|
|
|
bolt.
Posts: 1759
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
neither
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/13/2009 7:34:09 PM
|
|
|
herev
Posts: 125
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Agreed. But what do I know? The heresy hunters will be here shortly to set things right.
hahaha
_____________________________
God is bigger than your theology
|
|
|
|
|
No disrespect taken - 4/13/2009 9:52:36 PM
|
|
|
Doorkeeper
Posts: 45
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
We have haven't been perfected yet so Jesus is still giving out all five of these giftings.
_____________________________
Doorkeeper
...I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness... - Psa 84:10
|
|
|
|
|
RE: No disrespect taken - 4/14/2009 12:07:53 AM
|
|
|
Peloton
Posts: 200
Joined: 4/5/2009
Status: offline
|
Really the current crop of teleprophets have given the calling a bad name by selling prophetic touches, words, and other stuff to those with the cash, checks, and credit cards.
There are true prophets out there. They preach and prophesy without fear or favor to man and are therefore not very prosperous. I still feel that there are real prophets and persons of God who still operate in the gifts. The difference is who your promoter is. If God is your promoter, you and your giftings will be revealed in His time. We call the others "shooting stars." Big and bright until they burn out over the horizon.
Remember this as well...there has to be an original for there to be a counterfeit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: No disrespect taken - 4/14/2009 2:09:36 AM
|
|
|
GodsMusic
Posts: 713
Joined: 4/3/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peloton
There are true prophets out there. They preach and prophesy without fear or favor to man and are therefore not very prosperous.
I think you may have nailed that one there.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 2:47:09 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: josephus777
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
BTW, do you think we still have "apostles" today?....the verse says we do. Hopefully, you answer in the negative. God did give us apostles and prophets as He was finishing the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Bible. Now, we have it all and that is what we preach or prophesy.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 8:49:41 AM
|
|
|
TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
Status: offline
|
From what I can gather from my bible, the 5 fold ministry stands today as it did then. Cessationists would disagree, but they always fail to come up with a biblical basis for their response!!
_____________________________
TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 11:03:43 AM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
That is not what the Bible teaches. That is the gospel of a dead church.
No one said anything about adding to the Bible. That, is a very old and worn 'defence' for those who are uncomfortable with anything they cannot see or touch.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 11:11:24 AM
|
|
|
TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
That is not what the Bible teaches. That is the gospel of a dead church.
No one said anything about adding to the Bible. That, is a very old and worn 'defence' for those who are uncomfortable with anything they cannot see or touch.
God is not restricted to the bible, after all He speaks thru His creation everyday! I (and others I know) have had direct revelation from God which is consistant with His character and calling.
_____________________________
TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 11:53:58 AM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
It is the Spirit of God who gives life....in fact, He also teaches us and reveals the Word of God to us. So, having grown up in a church that preached that the gifts were no longer in existence and that speaking in tongues was of the devil, I think I have heard every lame excuse there is
as to why we now have only the Bible.
The word without the Spirit is d e a d. That, is what Scripture teaches.
Yes, God still speaks and reveals Himself to those who seek Him and love Him. The weirdos out there who talk to angels every 5 minutes and speak words that never come true do not negate the truth and do not offer a reason for saying that there are no more spiritual gifts.
What thinking person would believe that we do not need supernatural strength in this day and age when we are bombarded on every side by satanic things. Then, to top it all off, we have this arm of Christianity that preaches a false gospel stating that the gifts are no longer needed.
I have come to believe that the worship of the word is a false idol...that is to say, believing that your own mind can grasp all the Bible teaches without the Holy Spirit, puffs up some and causes them to argue more than love. The Word is Jesus and He is the One who sent the Holy Spirit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 11:57:11 AM
|
|
|
TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
Status: offline
|
Preach it, the whole counsel of God - Amen!
_____________________________
TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 1:23:26 PM
|
|
|
c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
I believe prophetic ministry is still valid, since there is no indication that the Gifts of the Spirit have been eliminated. However, I personally have a lot of "qualifiers".
I feel that what is often presented as a "Word from the Lord" or other revelation is really just someone perceiving what the Holy Spirit is doing already. They don't know quite what to do with it, so they "prophesy". They offer the "Word" in such vague, generic terms that people clap and shout Amen and come away feeling blessed. A good time was had by all...
In the Bible, the principle of the "Revelatory Gifts" (prophecy, word of knowledge and word of wisdom) seems to be that they are very specific expressions of God's will or knowledge. My experience and that of others backs this up.
Also, I don't know that speaking a prophesy or word of knowledge has to have the imperative of "Thus saith the Lord" or "God says" even. Such gifts can manifest in prayer, teaching or even conversationally. When they come forth, people will recognize them as such.
I also feel that many self-proclaimed prophets aren't. They may be people who have some "talent" in regards to "Revelatory Gifts", but they aren't really prophets. I say this because my study of the Bible in this regard showed me a common aspect of those defined as prophets in the Bible. They lived lives which showed others that they were thinking "beyond the horizon". They were chiefly concerned about preparing God's people for what lay in the future. For the most part, they led by example. Finally, they didn't declare themselves to be prophets: others recognized the office as the gifts and character that a true prophet would display became apparent.
This doesn't mean all those who claim to be prophets, but really aren't, are false prophets. It means they are misunderstanding and misapplying the term.
Operating in the Gift of Prophesy doesn't make one a prophet, though many people think it does. A prophet is a leader, working together with other gifted leaders "for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ," (Eph. 4:12)
I think that when people resort to making sure everyone has a title-"Prophet so and so" or "Apostle ______" and so on-they are in danger of operating from a position of power-mongering. It becomes almost feudal in nature, as people define themselves in relation to others in ways much like the dukes, barons and princes of old.
I also question certain activities such as having a visiting prophetic minister stand up front for an hour and pick people out of the congregation for "Words". Or having weekly gatherings in which the "prophets" will give words to everyone who comes. I'm not sure there is a reasonable basis for this sort of formulaic process in Scripture. Practically, it certainly causes problems as some people then continually seek prophecies and words to direct their lives. It can become addictive. It also reduced a profound expression of the Holy Spirit to mere entertainment.
To sum up: I feel the current "Prophetic Movement" has become commercialized. Faddish elements and questionable methods, which caught on because they were new and different and no one seemed to know any better, have come to be substitutes for genuine actions by the Holy Spirit. While some may use this to justify claims that all prophetic expression is erroneous, such is not the case.
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/14/2009 1:58:34 PM
|
|
|
jn1010lf
Posts: 497
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
|
Hello josephus777
No, the Lord has not done away with the five fold ministries. Neither has He done away with miracles or anything else that Jesus did when he walked this earth.
This is, however, my personal opinion. But if God is not the God we find in the Bible, who needs Him. If He's no greater than human wisdom or abilities, He's really not necessary. However, I've found Him to be infinitely superior to us. He wants to live in us and make us like Him.
He also wants people to be born again, delivered, healed and filled with His Spirit. How else can this world be changed from chaos to peace?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 3:35:11 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
That is not what the Bible teaches. That is the gospel of a dead church.
No one said anything about adding to the Bible. That, is a very old and worn 'defence' for those who are uncomfortable with anything they cannot see or touch.
No one has to say "anything about adding to the Bible" to be, in fact, doing so. If someone claims they are "prophesying", they are getting an additional message from God. It is absurd to say differently.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 3:37:29 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
|
quote:
The weirdos out there who talk to angels every 5 minutes and speak words that never come true do not negate the truth and do not offer a reason for saying that there are no more spiritual gifts.
True, the "weirdos" may not offer a reason but the Bible does - not to add to the word of God.
quote:
What thinking person would believe that we do not need supernatural strength in this day and age when we are bombarded on every side by satanic things. Then, to top it all off, we have this arm of Christianity that preaches a false gospel stating that the gifts are no longer needed.
I have come to believe that the worship of the word is a false idol...that is to say, believing that your own mind can grasp all the Bible teaches without the Holy Spirit, puffs up some and causes them to argue more than love. The Word is Jesus and He is the One who sent the Holy Spirit.
A specious argument and one made of straw.
The only way God speaks today is through His Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit....not by men claiming they are "hearing" and getting messages from God.
This is not worshipping the God of the Bible but a god of one's own making.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 3:38:36 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
|
quote:
To sum up: I feel the current "Prophetic Movement" has become commercialized. Faddish elements and questionable methods, which caught on because they were new and different and no one seemed to know any better, have come to be substitutes for genuine actions by the Holy Spirit. While some may use this to justify claims that all prophetic expression is erroneous, such is not the case.
No need to justify God's Word by the evil actions of men. The fact remains those who claim a "word" from God are adding to the Bible...a dreadful sin and one for which God proclaims a curse.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 3:40:18 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
|
quote:
No, the Lord has not done away with the five fold ministries. Neither has He done away with miracles or anything else that Jesus did when he walked this earth.
Will you now offer your evidence for the dead being raised to life and the restoration of withered limbs?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 4:34:30 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
No one has to say "anything about adding to the Bible" to be, in fact, doing so. If someone claims they are "prophesying", they are getting an additional message from God. It is absurd to say differently.
Well yes, they would have to say they were adding to the Bible in order to make your point valid. If I, or someone else says that they believe the Spirit of God is leading in a certain direction or that I believe God has laid something on my heart to say, you think that means I am adding to the Bible? Please, that is definately only something you believe. I would have to believe that and I do not. The book of Revelation ends with a curse for those who add to the word of God. With your argument, everyone who ever said anything on behalf of God...even a prophet in the OT, would be adding to the Bible if his words are not actually recorded and printed in the Bible.
You are trying to apply some very faulty logic that is easily shot full of holes. Whereas I can point to specific Scripures that teach on how to use the gifts given by the Holy Spirit, you cannot point to any Scripture that teaches that the Holy Spirit stopped operating. And that includes 'when that which is perfect is come.' The Bible is compete....but we are not yet made perfect.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 4/15/2009 10:56:09 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 4:55:33 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
The weirdos out there who talk to angels every 5 minutes and speak words that never come true do not negate the truth and do not offer a reason for saying that there are no more spiritual gifts.
True, the "weirdos" may not offer a reason but the Bible does - not to add to the word of God.
Hmmm...let's see....I admit that many people are not operating in the power of the Holy Spirit, but from themselves and in some cases demonic spirits. These people are not adding to the word of God. These people are twisting Scripture and applying same to their own supposed advantage. That, is not adding to Scripture. That, is ignoring what Scripture teaches much like saying that the gifts no longer exisit.
quote:
What thinking person would believe that we do not need supernatural strength in this day and age when we are bombarded on every side by satanic things. Then, to top it all off, we have this arm of Christianity that preaches a false gospel stating that the gifts are no longer needed.
I have come to believe that the worship of the word is a false idol...that is to say, believing that your own mind can grasp all the Bible teaches without the Holy Spirit, puffs up some and causes them to argue more than love. The Word is Jesus and He is the One who sent the Holy Spirit.
A specious argument and one made of straw.
No. It is straight from Scripture. Are you saying Jesus did not promise the Holy Spirit? Are you saying the day of Pentecost did not occur? Are you saying that there are no gifts listed in the NT complete with instructions on how they are to be used?
The only way God speaks today is through His Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit....not by men claiming they are "hearing" and getting messages from God.
That is not true. Your only example is one that every other person on this thread has already decried.
No one has to say "anything about adding to the Bible" to be, in fact, doing so. If someone claims they are "prophesying", they are getting an additional message from God. It is absurd to say differently.
No, what is absurd is to state that God, who is Spirit, only reveals Himself to us through His word and has given the Holy Spirit 'time off'. That, is what is absurd. God is the same God He was back in the OT and the NT. He has not changed.
I already addressed the charlatans...you do not seem able to address the reality. Kindly offer another excuse as this one has been addressed ... by
myself and in great detail by others in this thread
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 5:00:15 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
No, the Lord has not done away with the five fold ministries. Neither has He done away with miracles or anything else that Jesus did when he walked this earth.
Will you now offer your evidence for the dead being raised to life and the restoration of withered limbs?
The question by the OP is about prophetic gifting. You are introducing another topic here...the healings would fit under the description of 'signs'....not prophetic gifting. I am sure you may start another thread to discuss the above.
The OP:
quote:
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?[/size]
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/15/2009 10:49:03 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
No one has to say "anything about adding to the Bible" to be, in fact, doing so. If someone claims they are "prophesying", they are getting an additional message from God. It is absurd to say differently.
One thought more on this subject with regards to 'adding to the Bible'. This claim that people who believe they have something to say that is inspired by the Holy Spirit is 'adding to the Bible' is like a smokescreen for people who make that claim. You have stated several times that anyone who supposedly has a word from God is adding to the Bible....I made the point that all words spoken by even OT prophets would be spurious unless included in the Bible. As that is highly unlikely, it would stand to reason that not every word spoken by prophets is recorded and it is equally unlikely that words not recorded were 'adding to the Bible' or, falsely spoken.
Question: Does that make their claims that God gave them a message untrue? If only what is in the Bible is in fact from God, then every word spoken by these prophets that is not recorded in Scripture, with the claim that God had them say it, is a lie and then you must ask if any of what they say is true.
Question: Where in the Scripture does it say that every word spoken on behalf of God is written down? Even most of what Jesus did on this earth is NOT in the Bible, according to the Bible. Does that make the unrecorded miracles not of God?
On the other hand, the NT is clear how we are to use the gifts given...for the edification of the body of Christ etc. We are to try the spirits and not believe that every spirit is of Christ. You, on the other hand say, never mind any of it! None of that is for us today! The Word of God is not just the letter.....it is also the Spirit and that which does not go against the written word and edifies the Body and is found to be true has most likely passed the test as to whether or not it does in fact, originate with God and is inspired in the individual through the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
I wonder how many prophecies were given in the NT churches? Are they all included in the Bible?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 6:00:06 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
No one has to say "anything about adding to the Bible" to be, in fact, doing so. If someone claims they are "prophesying", they are getting an additional message from God. It is absurd to say differently.
Well yes, they would have to say they were adding to the Bible in order to make your point valid. Nope, they wouldn't have to. My point is perfectly valid because most won't admit to adding to the Bible when they are, in fact, doing precisely that as they report their visions, dreams and voices "supposedly" from God.
quote:
If I, or someone else says that they believe the Spirit of God is leading in a certain direction or that I believe God has laid something on my heart to say, you think that means I am adding to the Bible? Is what you describe the same as "hearing" from God?....of course, it isn't.
quote:
Please, that is definately only something you believe. I would have to believe that and I do not. Yep, it's something I believe because it is what Scripture teaches.
quote:
The book of Revelation ends with a curse for those who add to the word of God. With your argument, everyone who ever said anything on behalf of God...even a prophet in the OT, would be adding to the Bible if his words are not actually recorded and printed in the Bible. You fail to mention the fact that the OT prophets were inspired, these other most definitely are not.
quote:
You are trying to apply some very faulty logic that is easily shot full of holes. Easy to say, but so far you've yet to "plug" any holes you say you see.
quote:
Whereas I can point to specific Scripures that teach on how to use the gifts given by the Holy Spirit, you cannot point to any Scripture that teaches that the Holy Spirit stopped operating. You miss understand my argument. I never said, nor do I believe that the Holy Spirit has stopped operating. If He did, we'd all be in trouble and unsaved. God is simply not adding to His Word, He has said He would not when He pronounced the curses on those who add to or take away from Scripture.
quote:
And that includes 'when that which is perfect is come.' The Bible is compete....but we are not yet made perfect.
Exactly, the Bible is complete and those who add to it by claiming further direct revelation from God are in danger of the curses pronounced by God.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
