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Question about election - 5/18/2008 12:10:31 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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Ok here is a question on election (I hope it doesn't seem stupid). I am still unsure on election/freewill. Both sides have an argument with scripture that backs it up (I don't think anyone fully understands, that is just my opinion). I think both exist. So here is my question. If only the few God calls to be saved will be saved ( I know it says he chose before the foundation of the earth), then do you think prayer can affect this. For instance, If my son (2 years old) is not one of God's elect, can my prayers to God, cause God to call him as one of His elect. I guess my question is can prayers of believers cause God to choose someone. Since God sees time way differently than us do you think prayer can change someones condition.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 5/18/2008 12:28:47 AM >
_____________________________
" 'O Lord God. You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your Mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds?" Deuteronomy 3:24
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 1:42:03 AM
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SonInMe1
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Its in God's hands. We must trust Him to know and to lead us in our witness and who we witness to and how we do that.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 8:43:20 AM
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conrack50
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Its in God's hands. We must trust Him to know and to lead us in our witness and who we witness to and how we do that.
I agree. It is in God's hands.
Connie Lou
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 9:29:20 AM
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Birdiecat
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Doesn't God's elect refer to the Jewish people? The seed of God in Abraham? The apple of God's eye. Through prayer we can ask God to work in someone's heart, to reveal His love to that person. We can witness, give testimony. Help to save souls. But, after reading about the true seed of God in Abraham, it led to believe these are the elect. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 10:17:28 AM
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mvic
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God does not play games with us. He has not selected a certain number to be saved and those not selected are doomed. If that were the case then what is the point of the others trying and praying to be "selected"?
Either their fate has already been decided as "not selected".
Or, if they succeed in changing God's mind and get selected then ... well, what does that say about God?
The reality, in my simple view, is that God has given us all a free will to do right or to do wrong. To believe and follow His word, or not to do so.
And ... to suffer/enjoy the consequences.
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 1:32:36 PM
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rcjames
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God says;
(1Ti 2:3) for this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God,
(1Ti 2:4) who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
So all men have the opportunity and sufficient faith to accecpt Jesus. If they choose not to then they will stay condemned.
(Joh 3:17) For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him.
(Joh 3:18) He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
The ones who will be saved are the "Whosoever wills".
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 3:10:46 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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I agree with you all. But some do not. I was wondering what their thoughts were on this.
_____________________________
" 'O Lord God. You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your Mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds?" Deuteronomy 3:24
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 4:54:00 PM
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LCannon
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'Election' is not a precondition for assurance(as in, one is elected for salvation...)rather the redeemed are 'elected' to come into His obedience as the only reasonable response to His sacrifice/Victory. It's a position not a conclusion.
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Me and I will answer with great and mighty things which thou can't imagine." Hudson Tayor
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 8:09:44 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
I guess my question is can prayers of believers cause God to choose someone.
Before this gets banished to the OST...
The same question can be asked of any prayer, if God is sovereign and knows better than we do on all topics why would he hear any prayer? Still we are told he does, and instructed to pray.
My position is that we are to pray for all things and SURELY for something as vital as the salvation of our kids.
The dilemma here is in both extremes... on the one hand taking election to a bad conclusion you could decide not to pray since it's gonna be what it's gonna be - so at that extreme you could decide not to teach, example, discipline OR pray for your kids.
On the flip side extreme I would conclude that if you pray enough or properly and your kids have a good, clever will... then they must be saved (on the merits of your good praying and their smart will).
I'm sure the truth is in between. I pray for my kids. I believe God is sovereign. I believe the basis for salvation is grace (not clever wills) and that our prayers are only a means of grace, not the mechanism itself.
If it was simple... no one would debate it much.
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 8:23:47 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Ok here is a question on election... can prayers of believers cause God to choose someone. Since God sees time way differently than us do you think prayer can change someones condition.
Had another thought on this.
If you don't think that salvation is a free gift, GIVEN (not earned by an act of the will) then prayer makes little sense. The thing do to is to teach your kids how to exert their will properly, sovereign election is not part of the equation. But, if you believe that God's grace is powerful and extended as He sees fit, you will pray. And yes, the fact that we live in linear time and God is outside our frame of reference surely complicates this and any other thing we ask.
Again - if this was simple, no one would discuss it much.
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RE: Question about election - 5/18/2008 8:42:41 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Let's take for example the 2008 presidential election. We, the people, select, or 'elect' whom we want to run as our party nominee. After the general election, one individual is chosen. He (or she) is now elected to be president of the US. Is he forced to be the president? Can he still choose not to be president? Absolutely. The 'elect', by definition, is not a forceful decision, and our free will, whether to accept Him or reject Him, is still intact. But the accepting or rejecting has nothing to do with salvation. LCannon is absolutely right. So if I were you, continue to pray for every lost soul on the face of the earth.
Here is an essay found in PCC's (Pensacola Christian College) Winter 2008 Update that I think hits the nail on the head. It can be found here...
http://www.pcci.edu/Update/PDFs/2008/Update08-1.pdf
ELECTION
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love” Eph. 1:4. The New Testament words “chosen, choose, and election” are the same. The Old Testament word is simply “chosen.” From the above Scripture many think God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost. Again, as I point out—predestination and election (choosing) have nothing to do with the lost, but are for the saved. The following Scriptures tell us what the choosing, or election, of God is about: “For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and
Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” Rom. 9:9–13. At once, we see that election or choosing has to do with service—THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. It does not say, “The younger shall be saved, and the elder shall be lost.” No, but, “the elder shall SERVE the younger.” Thus election has to do with service. “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” wasn’t said of these two men before they were born, but hundreds of years after they died. God hated the descendants of Esau because of their unbelief, and loved the descendants of Jacob because of their faith. In John 15, the Lord Jesus said—He had chosen (elected) them disciples. For salvation? No, for service. Even Judas was chosen! For damnation? No, but like Pharaoh, who was a fit vessel unto wrath—after being given many chances to believe, he refused, and thus was used for God’s purpose. The prophet Isaiah says that Israel is God’s chosen people (Isaiah 41:8). Does this mean that all Jews are saved? No. It simply means that God has chosen Israel for a service. And we know what that service was: to give us the Word of God and to give us the Lord Jesus Christ! Isaiah says that Jesus Christ is the Chosen Servant of God (Isaiah 42:1). Does this mean that God chose the Lord Jesus to be saved? Of course not! For He is the SAVIOUR! But God did choose His Son for a service—and that service was to be the Lamb of God who would die for the sins of the world. And He was the obedient
Servant, being obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross! Back to Ephesians 1:4—what has God elected or chosen for us, or what has He elected, or chosen us for? Not salvation, but He has chosen us before the foundation of the world (He knew we would believe on His Son) for service—“that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.”In conclusion—God does not predestinate or elect men to be saved or lost, but salvation is on the basis of “WHOSOEVER WILL”!—“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely” Rev. 22:17.
Dr. Mark G. Cambron (1911–2000) Teacher, pastor, and founder of Seaside Mission. He faithfully preached the gospel for over 50 yrs.
< Message edited by evry1needsgod -- 5/18/2008 8:48:51 PM >
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 8:27:08 PM
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davelinde
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Let's take for example the 2008 presidential election. We, the people, select, or 'elect' whom we want to run as our party nominee. After the general election, one individual is chosen. He (or she) is now elected to be president of the US. Is he forced to be the president? Can he still choose not to be president? Absolutely. The 'elect', by definition, is not a forceful decision, and our free will, whether to accept Him or reject Him, is still intact.
To extend your analogy - for all those not elected, may they simply declare themselves to be the president as an act of their will? Either election connotes selection among those who are and aren't, or it means what exactly?
So you are saying that the entire world is actually elect, and those with the better trained will's can save themselves with the right choice.
Veering back on topic... I do not believe that I can force anyone to choose salvation (including, sadly, my own kids) but I can be a means of grace to many (and ESPECIALLY my own kids). That's why I train, discipline, pray and example to them.
btw - there seems to be no better time to start that than when they are 2... because they QUICKLY become 12, (then 22) and if you are just thinking about it when they are 18 it's hard to catch up...
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 8:32:43 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
For instance, If my son (2 years old) is not one of God's elect, can my prayers to God, cause God to call him as one of His elect.
No, if he is elect then he was chosen before the foundation of the world BUT your prayers to God could well be in accordance with his election. God may be impressing on your heart to pray for him, in accordance with the choice he has already made. Does that make sense?
quote:
I guess my question is can prayers of believers cause God to choose someone. Since God sees time way differently than us do you think prayer can change someones condition.
No...what is done is done. But we don't know what has been done, who God has chosen. It is being revealed, so for all you and I know, your desire to pray for your son is apart of his revelation about your son's election.
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You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 8:33:44 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
The ones who will be saved are the "Whosoever wills".
Who originates that will...does it come from you or God?
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You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 8:43:00 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
your prayers to God could well be in accordance with his election. God may be impressing on your heart to pray for him, in accordance with the choice he has already made. Does that make sense?
Not at all actually. If he was already elected, why would she need to pray for him, and why would God instill in her the desire to pray for someone already elected?
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 9:48:44 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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There are numerous times in the bible where God changed his mind due to prayer from his people. Just look at Moses/Israel for example. However, I don't think His ultimate will, will change, but maybe the path will change to have His will happen in a different manner. Hmm I dont know.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 5/19/2008 9:55:58 PM >
_____________________________
" 'O Lord God. You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your Mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds?" Deuteronomy 3:24
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 10:03:11 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
There are numerous times in the bible where God changed his mind due to prayer from his people.
Really?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 10:14:08 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
There are numerous times in the bible where God changed his mind due to prayer from his people.
Really?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
I believe Abounding was referring to the multiple times God got angry with His people and threatened to, or started to destroy them, and stopped when Moses plead and prayed on behalf of them, like this one in Exodus 32
9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."
11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
this would make it seem as if God changed His mind, doesn't it?
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 10:32:06 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 366
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I don't mean to make this a debate over whether or not God changes. I'm sure that is covered elsewhere. But here is a link that discusses the issue...
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-change-mind.html
It is very well balanced, giving verses on both sides that seem as contradictions. Just something to concider...
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RE: Question about election - 5/19/2008 10:34:25 PM
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evry1needsgod
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The last paragraph at that link explains it perfectly
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RE: Question about election - 5/20/2008 9:06:32 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
The ones who will be saved are the "Whosoever wills".
Who originates that will...does it come from you or God?
God created the free will we all have and gave us the opportunity to excerise that free will to be saved by his Grace. It is up to "Whosoever will" to make the choice of serving the flesh or believing in Christ.
God does not cram salvation down our throats.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 5/20/2008 9:13:08 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Question about election - 5/20/2008 9:42:29 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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I forget where it is, but God gave one man I think it was 7 more years to his life.
_____________________________
" 'O Lord God. You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your Mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds?" Deuteronomy 3:24
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