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Resisting "The Urge" - 9/22/2009 12:12:23 AM
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7over6
Posts: 241
Joined: 3/24/2009
From: new braunfels Tx
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I think all of you guys will know what I mean by "the urge"... I was doing my homework on the laptop after waisting a few hours doing fun stuff (social networking etc.) and just out of no where my mind thinks of something sexual and I just feel like I have got to see this thing, this strong strong feeling sparks in my abdomin and it just churns and burns inside of me as if lust manifested in to a physical stimulation on my organs! Eventually I gave in and one thing led to another and then bam I'm lookin at straigt up porn! I haven't done this in 5 or so months and was doing great!
How do you guys advice I resist this thing? I wish it was as easy as telling myself no. But when I do it seems that beneath that no is a wide spread, solidified YES.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 9/22/2009 2:06:39 AM
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Konstantinos
Posts: 1095
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Greece Patra
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you should probably edit up your description and make it less ..vivid? otherwise it may get locked.
if you are single the only things i know that helped me most were keeping my mind busy, myself busy, trying to be around someone.. anyone at all times. and by around i mean in the same room.
_____________________________
eh.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 9/22/2009 8:15:19 AM
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PastorSteveMT
Posts: 136
Joined: 5/27/2009
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Get a good internet filter and accountability partner. I just recently swtiched to "SafeEyes" and I love it. One thing I know about myself after YEARS of trying and failing to beat this porn habit is that I can't do it without help. Knowing that someone is seeing the sights I visit as well as the filter blocking most of them anyway, makes the urge diminish rapidly.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 9/23/2009 2:20:56 PM
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7over6
Posts: 241
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From: new braunfels Tx
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Konstantinos I do not know why you think what I wrote was vivid, especially it being in the mens only forum. By "stimulation to my organs" I means the feeling I feel of lust seems to be tangeable in my inner organs such as my intestines etc. not my.. other organs.
And it is unrealistic for me to be around someone at all times- I live in an apartment with a Christian room mate that goes to UT (Austin Tx) full time and I have a part time with aprt time school. I'm not married yet. Who could accomplish that anyways- having someone around at all times? Perhaps I shoudl realize God is around me all fo the time - fear of the Lord!
When I most busy I look back and realize I haven't even had time to have lustful thoughts, endulge, or browse the net - so business and productiveness is a key, being away from the computer and not waisting countless hours just doing nothing on the net - that is dangerous.
Thank you for your responses guys and the pm.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 9/30/2009 11:52:35 PM
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Chris0121
Posts: 15
Joined: 9/30/2009
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I'm new here guys so forgive me if I'm moving to quickly into the forums. This thread got my attention as I browsed through.
Guys, this is sincere, transparent, and from the heart. I pray you receive it the way it is intended.
I can't relate to some of the things I'm reading here. I was raised to believe that human sexuality is normal. And that an interest in sex is normal. Thoughts about sex are normal. Pleasuring yourself was normal as long as it was in private and not compulsive. I was taught that there is a difference between lust and normal sexual fantasy or even interest. And that God loved me and made me a man, so I should rejoice in the blessings of the sexual side of my nature. So I can't really relate to a lot of the guilt some of you brothers have. I grew up a normal young man, peaking at girls, liking a centerfold etc. I was told that the sex industry degraded women so I steered clear of the hard core stuff most of the time, but I was assured that even when I indulged, God loved me and that His grace was sufficient for me. I married my high school sweetheart who is also rather liberated from sexual guilt and shame. She's my best friend and I can tell her how I'm feeling and what I've thought about without her feeling insecure. She acknowledges that I'm a man, and so some things are just normal. However, there are lines. I'd never act on any thought or fantasy I've had. She allows me to share my fantasies, and occasionally they energize us as a couple. I've known her 17 years now and we've been married 12 years. We have a little boy and we're very happy. We've written each other mature poetry and stories. We love each other and rejoice in our natures. When we're angels...we're angels together. When we're little devils...we're little devils together. I still have fantasies, sexual thoughts, and feelings. Yes, I occasionally peak at something, but I just move on afterward and so it doesn't captivate me or crush me with guilt. I know God loves me. I know that I am but a man and that I'm human. I don't beat myself up over it, I rejoice in the cross.
My advice is...acknowledge that you're human and embrace God's grace (unmerited favor). You'll have seasons of intense sexual feelings and seasons when you don't. If you're single, you too will experience this. Don't beat yourself up. Satan loves to use religion to bury you with guilt and shame. I'm not Jesus, you're not Jesus, and neither of us ever will be Jesus. And that's a good thing...because there can only be one Jesus...and he was everything you're not so that he could justify you and die in your place as a perfect sacrifice.
So guys, give it to God and just be guys. Resist when you can, and when you can't...remember, you're just a man. You're not filthy. You're perfectly normal. I would like to go into the Song of Solomon where the Shulamite lays on her bed fantasizing about her lover...and there are also passages where her lover fantasizes about her. Please note, these fantasies are before their wedding mind you. Notice...God doesn't condemn them. In fact, their passion is celebrated throughout the entire book.
There is a difference between lust and normal sexual interest. You might look at an attractive girl or a picture and feel attracted or "on". Guess what, you're designed to do that. That's normal. You might imagine what it would be like to be with her. Guess what, that's normal too. Now, you're lusting if you look upon her for the purpose of lusting after her...meaning with intent to actually pursue and use her. If that's not your intent, you've just had normal attraction and/or interest. So again, don't beat yourself up. Just move on in Christ Jesus, a man who is a saved and normal human being.
Oh well. That's my advice. I'll offer what Dr. James Dobson wrote about this subject,
"It is my opinion that masturbation is not much of an issue with God." (Preparing for Adolescence, Dr. James Dobson, p.83)
I love being free. I love being a man. I love being saved. Remember, there are lines we don't cross. We don't act on every feeling or fantasy we have. If a fantasy begins to motivate you to commit sin... the problem isn't the fantasy... it's your heart. You need to draw closer to Jesus.
One last thing. Some of you indicated that you just can't resist or that it's extremely difficult to resist. Notice something that Paul wrote...
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 (New International Version)
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Notice here that Paul mentions those who cannot control their urges. Notice he doesn't condemn them. He doesn't tell them to repent. He doesn't tell them to pray to gain control. He doesn't tell them to get a hobby. What does Paul advise? It's real practical and it's a no brainer when you think about it. Paul advises them to marry. Why? Because that is the only way they can truly satisfy their needs and actually find some control. It's better to marry than to continue burning with passion for this unmet need. If you find that you "cannot control" it's an indicator that you're not meant to be single and celibate like Paul; you need to look for a mate. You are meant to marry. REJOICE. Now you know that marriage is indeed for you. And if you're made by God to be married...you know that He already has chosen that special someone just for you. She's out there. Now start praying and seeking that someone.
Anyway, I've rambled enough and I'm tired. Those are my thoughts and feelings my precious brethren.
May the grace and peace of Jesus Christ comfort you and keep you free from all guilt and shame. In Jesus name. Amen.
< Message edited by Chris0121 -- 10/1/2009 12:08:47 AM >
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/1/2009 2:33:39 AM
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perfectWeakness129
Posts: 25
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Chris, while I disagree with the details of your post (ie, looking at porn) I really like your heart. There is a huge amount of undue condemnation that men experience I think due to the unwarranted demonizing of biological certainties. Sexual arousal is a necissary part of life. If God didn't give men sex drives, Adam would've spent all his time fishin in the Tigris and multiplication never would've happened. REJOICE.
After 4 years of being a guy in his 20's following God after being saved at 22, here's what I've come up with:
-Sexual arousal is OK
-Sexual immorality, or anything that perverts pure sex, is sin (Pornography, sex with someone other than your wife, per-marital sex, homosexuality, etc.)
-Masturbation may be a sin and fall under lust (I've always believed so,) but the Bible doesn't explicitly teach that so I can't teach it either.
-Sexual attraction is a horrible reason to get married, but definatly necissary reason to consider marriage.
-You have biological functions and mental thoughts that are GOOD and from God, but like everything that is GOOD and from God, it can be perverted by our sin.
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/1/2009 8:09:17 AM
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PastorSteveMT
Posts: 136
Joined: 5/27/2009
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The short answer is what Jesus said "anyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart". Therefore "sneaking a peak" shouldn't be something we indulge in.
And I have to say that what I just said is coming from someone who is incredibly sexually liberated. I don't believe masturbation is a sin if it doesn't involve lust or fantasy about another woman. Masturbating while thinking of your wife or for you single, masturbation for the act itself I dont' read anywhere in scripture is a sin.
But porn is a sin. Period. And we MUST do all we can to resist it.
Paul also stated that "he beat his body into submission DAILY" to try and become more and more like Christ. This doesn't sound like a statement made by some who just "accepted that he's a man" and therefore "oh well". Paul hated his sinful nature and wanted to do everything to get rid of it.
In my opinion, either you walk in the Spirit and do not indulge the lust of the flesh, or you don't. You can't have it both ways. When we do walk in the flesh, there SHOULD be conviction from the Holy Spirit and therefore repentance and a yearning to follow after God again.
Sin is sin is sin. We need to call it what it is. Should we live a life full of guilt? Of course not. But we also need to live a life that is in the Spirit. And if we do that, we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh, and therefore we never have to feel guilt.
Using the excuse "well, I'm a man and therefore I'm going to do man things" is just that...and excuse. We are men...but we are supposed to be men of God.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/1/2009 7:05:42 PM
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Chris0121
Posts: 15
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quote:
ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129
Chris, while I disagree with the details of your post (ie, looking at porn) I really like your heart. There is a huge amount of undue condemnation that men experience I think due to the unwarranted demonizing of biological certainties. Sexual arousal is a necissary part of life. If God didn't give men sex drives, Adam would've spent all his time fishin in the Tigris and multiplication never would've happened. REJOICE.
After 4 years of being a guy in his 20's following God after being saved at 22, here's what I've come up with:
-Sexual arousal is OK
-Sexual immorality, or anything that perverts pure sex, is sin (Pornography, sex with someone other than your wife, per-marital sex, homosexuality, etc.)
-Masturbation may be a sin and fall under lust (I've always believed so,) but the Bible doesn't explicitly teach that so I can't teach it either.
-Sexual attraction is a horrible reason to get married, but definatly necissary reason to consider marriage.
-You have biological functions and mental thoughts that are GOOD and from God, but like everything that is GOOD and from God, it can be perverted by our sin.
I agree for the most part. Looking at porn isn't something I'd say is a good thing at all. It always leads one down a path of greater and greater perversion. But I feel there is a natural curiosity and interest in women. I love French Impressionism, and anyone into art knows that the female form is the most cherished and loved form in creation and there is a healthy admiration and love for it any healthy man has...but sadly that admiration can become a perversion that can lead a man into objectifying women as objects merely for his pleasure, so caution is necessary. I know that my son will check out pictures of girls at some point. And yes, he'll catch a peak if he can. And yes, there will be "locker room talk". I think that those occasional "being a boy" moments aren't going to kill him and would be the least of his worries. I can't beat him up over it. II can encourage him to resist as much as possible, but if he fails, God still loves him and it's Christ's righteousness that makes him "holy", not his own. I'll also encourage him to always remember that women are to be loved and respected. And when he finds THE ONE he can share in this gift with her and her alone.
I fear that we sometimes teach a Christianity that causes our humanity to bring us to the point where we feel like giving up and running from Jesus out of our fear of his rejection or displeasure with us. I don't believe that should be so. I believe that our humanity and our failures while being in this "flesh" should cause us to realize how much we desperately need Him as our Savior...because we just can't do it.
I'm going to be way out in left field here. I think some ministries intend to do good...but in the end their exploiting our humanity. There are countless "programs" and "strategies, books and seminars on how to "overcome lust" and they target those saints that are being crushed by guilt. These saints drop lots of money into their coffers for this programs, books, tapes, workshops etc. And truth be told...after all is said and done they're just as human as they were before. I think they just need more Jesus. That's all...just Jesus. They need to first experience his love and grace so that they can be free from guilt and shame. They also need to lift the phony religious image that the church wants to force them into becoming, an image they will never attain to. I've been a preacher for 6 years and it amazes me how so many who demand that these young me "sanctify" themselves for this terrible sin of being a man are just as human as the young men they cut with their words...and sometimes folks they're worse. We need to sincerely pray for our spiritual leaders. A lot of pressure is on them to be perfect. One pastor I was talking to about an issue a young man brought to me (masturbation) admitted that he didn't think it was a sin. I asked him if he told the young man this. He answered, "Absolutely not. If I said that and his parents heard it or someone in the church heard of it they'd run me out of here on a rail!" I asked what he told him. His answer was, "I told him to repent and not do it again." This kid walked away feeling like he sinned. And while he tries to "not do it", he'll eventually fail. This will destroy his image of who he is in Christ and lead to him feeling like an absolute failure, rejected of God. We need to REALLY pray and fast for our pastors and preachers. We also have to get some spiritual grit so that if they're human or offer an opinion that might be controversial we don't run away crying heretic.
As for masturbation. lol I've yet to meet any man who hasn't done it. And most who are young and healthy will do it again no matter how badly they don't want to. It's just part of being a man. I've found that the more you put it into perspective the less they obsess over it and the less it becomes compulsive. I don't know. I just don't believe it's a serious issue at all.
Hey, but good hearing from you Bro. PerfectWeakness. I appreciate your thoughts.
God bless.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/1/2009 7:59:20 PM
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Chris0121
Posts: 15
Joined: 9/30/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT
The short answer is what Jesus said "anyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart". Therefore "sneaking a peak" shouldn't be something we indulge in.
And I have to say that what I just said is coming from someone who is incredibly sexually liberated. I don't believe masturbation is a sin if it doesn't involve lust or fantasy about another woman. Masturbating while thinking of your wife or for you single, masturbation for the act itself I dont' read anywhere in scripture is a sin.
But porn is a sin. Period. And we MUST do all we can to resist it.
Paul also stated that "he beat his body into submission DAILY" to try and become more and more like Christ. This doesn't sound like a statement made by some who just "accepted that he's a man" and therefore "oh well". Paul hated his sinful nature and wanted to do everything to get rid of it.
In my opinion, either you walk in the Spirit and do not indulge the lust of the flesh, or you don't. You can't have it both ways. When we do walk in the flesh, there SHOULD be conviction from the Holy Spirit and therefore repentance and a yearning to follow after God again.
Sin is sin is sin. We need to call it what it is. Should we live a life full of guilt? Of course not. But we also need to live a life that is in the Spirit. And if we do that, we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh, and therefore we never have to feel guilt.
Using the excuse "well, I'm a man and therefore I'm going to do man things" is just that...and excuse. We are men...but we are supposed to be men of God.
Praise the Lord Pastor Steve!
I think that you offered a real good short answer. But it illustrates what I believe to be an issue. You see...short answers always leave out valuable details that are VERY important. It's often easier to beat the drum of a widely accepted religious opinion on something than to really address the depth of some issues. This is very deep and many are hurting over it all over Christendom. We should look deeper. I'll share my thoughts on it with you. If you don't mind, please tell me what you think. Together, I believe we can find a balanced and biblical approach to the issue.
First thing, Jesus didn't say, "anyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart". Let's take a look at what Jesus did say,
Matthew 5:28 (KJV)
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The English Standard Version renders it like this,
Matthew 5:28 (ESV)
28But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
You see, the issue is looking at a woman for the purpose of lusting after her, meaning with the true intent of actually acting on your desires. To look at a beautiful woman sitting on a bench at a bus station and have thoughts about what it would be like to be with her isn't sin. It's normal human interest. Even going as far as having a daydream or fantasy isn't even lust. Now...if you gaze upon that beautiful woman sitting on that bench and say in your heart, "I'm going to get that. I'm going to walk over and see what happens. Maybe I'll get lucky.", you've actually looked upon her "to lust" after her and with actual lustful "intent". The moment you consider making the move, you've committed adultery before you even say hello.
I agree with you in that masturbation isn't a sin. I also agree that we should avoid porn as much as possible. The sex industry behind porn chews women up and spits them out. But at the same time I'd never say that it's wrong to admire beautiful art. In my opinion it's the horrible abuse and bondage behind the porn industry that makes it evil...interest in sex isn't evil and in fact, it's healthy. Interest in the beauty of a woman is also healthy.
I think when Paul said that he "beats his body daily" I think he was saying that he disciplines himself to not engage in sin. In the debased culture of the Roman Empire pagan temples full of debauchery and prostitutes abounded. Paul steered clear. We do the same by not going to prostitutes, calling call girls, phone sex, and trying to "hook up" when the opportunities are there. And yes, we too need to hate that aspect of our nature that attracts us to such things. I don't think Paul was talking about masturbation or the normal and healthy interest in sex or women. If we walk in the Spirit we can resist the urge to actually sin.
Pastor Steve, you said some things about masturbation that I found interesting. I agree with you whole heartedly. Fantasizing about your wife isn't a sin, and even if one does masturbate while having those fantasies it isn't a sin. But here's where I don't entirely agree - you said that if a single person masturbates for the act itself without fantasy isn't a sin...but the implication is that if a single person masturbates while fantasizing about a woman (be it a model, actress, neighbor, classmate, teacher, etc.) it is. I have two issues with this. Masturbation is a very personal and sexual activity. I don't know anyone who masturbates while writing checks to pay the bills or while reviewing their baseball card collection. lol If a person masturbates I assure you...they're having sexual fantasy. I think this line of reasoning can lead to self deception. Many who embrace this might masturbate and claim it's without fantasy...but odds are, they're now lying...and that is a sin and is far worse than masturbation. The second issue I have is based on my belief that if a single fantasizes sexually about someone, it's not a sin. Now if they're planning or intending to actually act on that attraction it's birthed lust in the heart. Again, it boils down to the intent of the heart. A young man might have a fantasy about a girl in school while masturbating but in his heart he'd NEVER act on it or pursue her. That in my opinion is fantasy, not lust. Fantasy is thinking about something you'd never do. Lust is thinking about something you want to do and perhaps are intending to do.
Consider this, the Shulamite and her Lover in the Song of Solomon. They fantasized about each other before their wedding. Even though they fantasized prior to the wedding, nowhere are they condemned or is a warning issued. I'd say it's not a sin to fantasize about the one you desire. The sin is committed when in your heart you actually want to act on those fantasies.
Oh well, those are just a few thoughts of mine to clarify.
Love you in the Lord, and may God bless and keep you and yours Pastor Steve.
< Message edited by Chris0121 -- 10/1/2009 8:11:27 PM >
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/1/2009 10:46:04 PM
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Scott99
Posts: 10
Joined: 10/1/2009
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Does anyone think Jesus masturbated? Or had sexual fantasies about women?
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/2/2009 12:52:23 AM
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Chris0121
Posts: 15
Joined: 9/30/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Scott99
Does anyone think Jesus masturbated? Or had sexual fantasies about women?
Personally, I don't thing Jesus masturbated. But if he did while very young I wouldn't be surprised. We know nothing about his young adulthood. Perhaps God chose not to reveal his humanity in all it's detail because it would cause some to question his deity.
I do think that Jesus, in his humanity, had thoughts about women. The Bible says,
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
So I think Jesus had sexual thoughts, urges, and needs like the rest of us. However, he had the Spirit without measure and had his flesh under perfect submission so that he might accomplish his mission as our redeemer.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/2/2009 10:23:27 AM
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Scott99
Posts: 10
Joined: 10/1/2009
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Chris, do you see Jesus as having had sexual fantasies with women?
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/2/2009 9:41:24 PM
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Chris0121
Posts: 15
Joined: 9/30/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Scott99
Chris, do you see Jesus as having had sexual fantasies with women?
Scott, the Scripture states,
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
I'd go as far as to say that not only did Jesus have the normal "thoughts" about women that any man has, he also had thoughts about actually "sinning" with women that apparently tempted him to actually "sin"...yet he didn't sin by acting on those thoughts. I believe that Jesus experienced a temptation toward "every" sinful tendency any human being can experience.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/2/2009 10:59:20 PM
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Scott99
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Joined: 10/1/2009
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I guess I'm trying to get a better understanding of what you see as the difference between a sexual thought, a sexual temptation, and a sexual fantasy. It seems to me that since we all inhabit a physical body, we all experience physical desires. That would have included Jesus. Do you see temptation as a thought planted in your mind to behave according to our bodily desires in a way that is beyond the proper limits? How do you personally differentiate what constitutes a sexual thought, a sexual temptation, and a sexual fantasy?
The reason I ask is because it seems to me that a sexual thought can be bounced off of our mind in the form of a temptation. But if a decision is made to take that thought and play it out in our mind as a sexual fantasy, I can't personally rationalize how that could be okay. I can explain the reasons why if you'd like. Furthermore, if a decision is made to take that thought and play it out in the flesh, I can't see how that would be okay either. Am I understanding correctly that you think playing the sexual scenario out in our mind is okay, but playing it out in the flesh is wrong? For me to think of Jesus being tempted in every way as we are doesn't include or require a picture of him having sexual fantasies with women, because I think you can be tempted to do something without having to follow through with it...even in your mind.
Question: what served as the inspiration for Jesus to always resist temptation?
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/3/2009 4:05:04 PM
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Chris0121
Posts: 15
Joined: 9/30/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Scott99
I guess I'm trying to get a better understanding of what you see as the difference between a sexual thought, a sexual temptation, and a sexual fantasy. It seems to me that since we all inhabit a physical body, we all experience physical desires. That would have included Jesus. Do you see temptation as a thought planted in your mind to behave according to our bodily desires in a way that is beyond the proper limits? How do you personally differentiate what constitutes a sexual thought, a sexual temptation, and a sexual fantasy?
The reason I ask is because it seems to me that a sexual thought can be bounced off of our mind in the form of a temptation. But if a decision is made to take that thought and play it out in our mind as a sexual fantasy, I can't personally rationalize how that could be okay. I can explain the reasons why if you'd like. Furthermore, if a decision is made to take that thought and play it out in the flesh, I can't see how that would be okay either. Am I understanding correctly that you think playing the sexual scenario out in our mind is okay, but playing it out in the flesh is wrong? For me to think of Jesus being tempted in every way as we are doesn't include or require a picture of him having sexual fantasies with women, because I think you can be tempted to do something without having to follow through with it...even in your mind.
Question: what served as the inspiration for Jesus to always resist temptation?
Praise the Lord Bro. Scott,
I'll try to break my opinion down.
Sexual Thought - You might see a beautiful woman while shopping. Your mind might capture her form and you instantly consider her a sexually attractive woman. At that point you smile as she walks by but within minutes you're more concerned with the price of the tomatoes you're buying. It's not a sin to find people sexually attractive.
Sexual Fantasy - An active thought wherein you elaborate on the idea of sex with someone. Of course sexual fantasy may or may not be accompanied with masturbation. But I'd wager that masturbation is always accompanied with fantasy. Fantasy might be something you'd NEVER truly do or perhaps something you never could do. For example, a married man might fantasize about an actress or model. But the man would never truly act on doing such a thing even if the opportunity arose. He knows the lines are drawn and therefore this is just make believe. Sexual fantasy might also involve a young man or woman fantasizing about how badly they want to be together once they're married (the Shulamite and her Lover), but the individuals know that it's fantasy and they cannot act on their desires until marriage. Also sexual fantasy might take place in an imaginary time or place. A married man and his wife might role play. They imagine him a king and she being just one of his concubines; or perhaps they imagine he's a soldier on leave and she's a woman he's paid to entertain for the evening. Maybe they imagine he's a Viking pillaging a village and she's a peaceful villager and he's ravishing her. They might fantasize about making love in a sexy couples resort or perhaps in public under the Eiffel Tower. All these things are "imaginary", they are like writing fictional stories in our minds for entertainment's sake. The husband isn't a king and would never have "concubines". The husband isn't a soldier and would never hire a lady of the evening; and certainly his wife would never sell herself. The husband isn't a viking and he'd never rape villagers and his wife would never really want to be raped. And they'd never really make love in public. No sin is committed here. It's all just fantasy.
Sexual temptation - Sexual temptations are thoughts about committing a sex act you truly want to do and when the thought comes it takes active resistance to keep one's self from acting on the thought. There are innocent sexual temptations. For example a man's wife might be sleeping and he be tempted to ravish her. There are also darker temptations, a woman at the office lingers at your desk for a couple days talking on a personal level. She's gorgeous and one day she asks you out for a few drinks after work while the wife is out of town at her parents with the kids. You want to and it takes active effort to smile and say, "No. I'm sorry I can't go, I'm married. I'm terribly flattered though.", and then pack your things and get away from the office as fast as possible. It's not a sin to be tempted. Sin is committed when one gives into said temptation.
Lust - Lust is when sexual thoughts, feelings, fantasies, and temptations are propelling you to seriously act on them in a sinful manner. For example, the next day at the office you walk by that gorgeous coworker's desk and decide that if she asks you out tonight...you'll actually go. Though you may not have spoken to her yet you've committed adultery in your heart. You might be out of town with the sales team and visiting a local restaurant with a bar. There at the bar is a beautiful woman. You check her out, there are sexual thoughts, your mind lingers with what you would like to do with her and you decide that you're going to say hi and try to get her to go back to the hotel room with you. The moment you've embarked to do the deed, you've committed adultery in your heart though you haven't talked to her yet. Lust is the desire to actually act on sinful sexual desires and objectify another human being for your personal pleasure.
My concern is that we're loading men down with guilt and shame over things that aren't necessarily sinful. For example a brother was shopping, saw a beautiful woman and had a sexual thought or two. He now comes to a brother crushed in his spirit for "lust". He feels spiritually defeated, like a spiritual failure. And here's the sad part...to many Christian men would offer to "pray for him" and encourage him not to have sexual thoughts. Guess what...that's a remedy for failure. He's a man, it's going to happen. He has no time to work for the kingdom of God or tear down the strongholds of Hell because now he's engaged in an unnecessary constant battle with his own human nature that won't change until he's probably in his nineties or dead. He's now going to live in a state of defeat. That's one soldier out of the fight. To make matters worse various "ministries" will take his money and try to teach him to be a eunuch.
A sexual thought, masturbation, fantasy, or even experiencing temptation isn't sin. We need to know that the line is crossed when the intent of the heart is to actually perform wickedness.
I hope this helps explain my position on the issue.
God bless.
< Message edited by Chris0121 -- 10/3/2009 4:42:35 PM >
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/3/2009 10:49:35 PM
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Scott99
Posts: 10
Joined: 10/1/2009
Status: offline
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Chris, thanks for the time you put into your response. I am going to think over what you said for a while.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/5/2009 10:58:52 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chris0121
My concern is that we're loading men down with guilt and shame over things that aren't necessarily sinful. For example a brother was shopping, saw a beautiful woman and had a sexual thought or two. He now comes to a brother crushed in his spirit for "lust". He feels spiritually defeated, like a spiritual failure. And here's the sad part...to many Christian men would offer to "pray for him" and encourage him not to have sexual thoughts. Guess what...that's a remedy for failure. He's a man, it's going to happen. He has no time to work for the kingdom of God or tear down the strongholds of Hell because now he's engaged in an unnecessary constant battle with his own human nature that won't change until he's probably in his nineties or dead. He's now going to live in a state of defeat. That's one soldier out of the fight. To make matters worse various "ministries" will take his money and try to teach him to be a eunuch.
I agree totally! The whole sexual guilt/shame issue has really got out of hand. The irony is that those that really believe all of this seem to be the same people who write on these article about how man should be a hunter and "find" a wife. We keep hearing how the man should lead the relationship. Yet any thoughts of attraction is treated like it should be handled as if one were handling Plutonium or cultivating the Ebola virus.
I have gotten so tired of this rhetoric that I actually suggested people use one of the three commonly available pharmaceutical products to stop sexual desire in humans, if they hate it so much. I look at it like this. If you have such a problem with your desire, just turn it off. Take the medicine and be done with it. At least you will not be fighting biology. There will be little or no chance you will be consumed by sexuality. From what I hear sexual dreams and their associated outcomes can be eliminated too.
Is it really any different than a person taking a drug for OCD, anxiety, depression or glaucoma? I was being 100% serious when I posted this and still feel that way. Some people have such a strong sexually aversion they should just avoid it the same way some avoid high-risk activities such as racing, skydiving or barehanded rock climbing without a rope. Just look at the size of the Masturbation thread on this forum to see what I mean. It has been ongoing for about 49 months now with over 1000 replies and 220,000 hits! People are obsessed with it and become spiritual uncivil towards each other if there is any form of difference in interpretation.
The topic of desire is not funny because of the extremely negative spillover in the Christian Community. I was born and brought up in an extremely converative Pentecostatal church. In all of my life I have never seen more dysfunctional men than I have seen nowadays. They are too afraid to show "male interest" in a women, too afraid to ask a women out, too afraid to date, too afraid to be left alone with woman, too afraid of marriage, too afraid to take a little rejection, too afraid to have close female friends. They understand more about the the intricacies of their automobile than about the physical makeup of one of their own kind, a female human.
Chris, to me all of this is all very, very sad. I think many mens' souls have been and will be lost to this extreme shame/guilt teaching that you have mentioned and I have witnessed first hand over the last 15-20 years. What do you think the solution is?
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/7/2009 10:09:53 AM
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musicplayer
Posts: 40
Joined: 6/1/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dnp200450
In all of my life I have never seen more dysfunctional men than I have seen nowadays. They are too afraid to show "male interest" in a women, too afraid to ask a women out, too afraid to date, too afraid to be left alone with woman, too afraid of marriage, too afraid to take a little rejection, too afraid to have close female friends. They understand more about the the intricacies of their automobile than about the physical makeup of one of their own kind, a female human.
I couldn't agree more. About 10 years ago I joined a men's small group for about 3 months. Every week all they ever talked about was their daily battle with "lustful" thoughts, staring at attractive women (this was during the summer), interacting with women, stuff like that. It got to be pretty ridiculous. One guy even seriously thought about switching out his family vacation, or hiding in his beach rental for a week because he was fearful of going to the beach and actually seeing women in bikinis.
Things never progressed past this point in the small group so I stopped going.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/7/2009 2:45:38 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: musicplayer
I couldn't agree more. About 10 years ago I joined a men's small group for about 3 months. Every week all they ever talked about was their daily battle with "lustful" thoughts, staring at attractive women (this was during the summer), interacting with women, stuff like that. It got to be pretty ridiculous. One guy even seriously thought about switching out his family vacation, or hiding in his beach rental for a week because he was fearful of going to the beach and actually seeing women in bikinis.
Things never progressed past this point in the small group so I stopped going.
Brother MUSICPLAYER, I know exactly what you mean!!! I made the same mistake you did in picking my affiliations. I innocently thought it was time for me to reach out to other Christian men in my community. I found the experience to be both sad and shocking.
Ironically, the earlier in life they were saved the more dysfunctional they were. We are talking guys in their 20’s-50’s who had never been on a date! Besides, they were fearful of sexuality. For instance, they kept talking about lust, sin, temptation, fornication and adultery. Yet when I would ask them direct questions or made specific inquires of a biological or practical nature, they would become very nervous and uncomfortable. I was not being vulgar or obscene. As a matter of fact I was quite clinical and non-dramatic.
They claimed virtually every man has this struggle. I did not agree with that and I asked them to show me proof of that belief. Not one them had any studies, proof, statistics or evidence to back up their claim. It was purely anecdotal. Come to find out they heard this urban myth from certain Pastors, seminar leaders and authors. I told them they were dealing with false stereotypes and that stereotypes about Christians, women, blacks, and yes men, were bad because it is a form of prejudice. All men are not perverts, nor are all women hysterical, all blacks are not on welfare, teens are not all drug addicts, etc. You can’t base a Christian support group on a stereotype. Yes some men are addicted to sex. Some are addicted to food. Some are addicted to work. Some are addicted to sports. Notice I said some, not all. Not all Christians have addictive personalities!
These guys, which I will call GROUP A (early converters), were always talking about how they saw a woman and “sinned with their hearts”. Come to find out they were just attracted to the female in question. They thought they sinned because they were attracted to her physically without knowing her spiritually. There was a constant guilt/shame prayer theme, which I would refuse to participate in. Why? Because I realized they weren’t really asking God to heal their sins. They were in essence praying for God to change them in to what amounts to be asexual eunuchs. Real men were not designed to think/behave that way. That would be the equivalent to me praying to have my race or gender changed. Indirectly it is telling God that you are not happy by the way he designed you. It is a real slap in the face and quite disrespectful.
GROUP B was largely composed of men that converted later in life. Some in this group previously had lived wild lives with a large number of sexual partners, illegal drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. They had given it up because they had found Christianity to be a far better lifestyle in both the short and long terms. Many were well traveled. These guys were more balanced in their views on what was sinful and what was normal (natural). They weren’t the type of guys who would engage in long diatribes about masturbation, erotic dreams, and female attraction. Not to say they approved of sexual sins, they just did not obsess and got on with their lives.
Unlike GROUP A, GROUP B was not xenophobic and would travel overseas, befriend-witness to anyone regardless of their Nationality, ethnicity, race and oh yes, even religion. Their approach to witnessing tended to be like a pleasant “soft-sell” that was inviting, while not being theologically hostile. Most of GROUP A never had been overseas and seemed to be afraid of anything or anyone “different”. They were too scared to travel to non-western countries.
All of the GROUP B guys (myself included) finally left the group because they (I) could not take any more of GROUP A’s dysfunctional non-masculine behavior. Do not get me wrong. These guys were not gay or feminine. They were just kind of androgynous, with low self-esteem and no assertiveness. Their male self-image was wrecked. They were broken and really felt showing interest in and being physically attracted to females, when single was sinful. They claimed that we should look exclusively at the soul and only have sexual attraction once married, not before. If they “felt” anything it was off to the Brother's fro group prayer.
They were all were waiting and praying, waiting and praying, waiting and… for God to give them a wife. Yet they never approached, dated or even developed close friendships with women. There was always an excuse. Here were the most popular:
#1) “I don’t believe in dating because it is not biblical. I believe in courtship.” Courtship is hard to do if you don’t ask a woman out.
#2) “Having close female friends is dangerous because feelings get hurt.” How can you learn about women if you refuse to make friends with or understand them? So, no friendship because there is the potential you might get hurt?!
#3) “The one you "court” must be the one you are looking to marry.” Well, maybe we are making sure we are right for each other before we tie the knot.
#4) “You should not spend time alone with a woman, you are just inviting temptation/lust/desire to take over.” IMHO, if you claim you are a Christian and can’t spend time alone with a Christian woman without losing control; you should add your name to a Sexual Predator Registry!
They went through all of the MALE BASHING (er, HEALING) seminars and had signed, autographed copies of the popular Christian male sexuality books. I found these books tried to promote negative reinforcement by saying that. "Although you are a Christian and maybe saved, sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit. You are male and thus that automatically makes you spiritually and sexually obsessed and need our (speaker, author, you fill in the blank...) help to set you straight." It has been proven that negative reinforcement, such as this, does not work well in modifying the behavior of animals or humans.
I learned my lesson and stayed away from that MENS association. Though I became close friends with some of the guys in GROUP B. So the whole experience was not a total waste. Looking back I realized the GROUP A guys had been constantly "beat-down" and hence they had poor self-esteem and self-value.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/8/2009 10:27:54 AM
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keithyhuntington
Posts: 814
Joined: 7/7/2009
From: Tulsa, Okla.
Status: offline
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you know, im 26 and married, and i dont think i've ever had a 'sexual fantasy.' its too much effort, and im too lazy to sit and think about stuff. and i have pretty much absolutely no imagination.
am i the only one? lol
_____________________________
Jesus Christ please help me 'cause i'm lonely. Whats the use in living, if you can't make a good living?
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/8/2009 2:21:30 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keithyhuntington
you know, im 26 and married, and i dont think i've ever had a 'sexual fantasy.' its too much effort, and im too lazy to sit and think about stuff. and i have pretty much absolutely no imagination.
am i the only one? lol
Ha! I think must working guys don't have the time or the energy to be thinking about fantasys all of the time anyway. I work 9-16 hours a day, do about 90 minutes at the gym, at sleep only 5-7 hours a night. On the weekend there are many religious activities, chores and hobbies to work on. Trust me, I have NO struggle going on in the hormonal department. The hormones don't have enough energy to get noticed anyway 
That being said, Brothers still keep trying to force feed me the lust-temptation-thought anti-desire, segregated-gender doctrines that are the fad at the moment. Lots of people are making money on male bashing seminars and book sales. It appears to be an extension of the anti-dating/romance craze of the 1990's, which also generated strong sales.
Here are some quotes just one hour ago I got from a popular Christian advice website:
Quote #1:
“Centuries of experience show that praying with a person of the opposite sex can itself arouse strong romantic feelings. This makes it difficult to tell the difference between the still, small voice of God, and the gurgle and swoosh of the endocrine system — and even if the experience didn't have that effect on you, it may still have had that it on her. A married man and woman can pray by themselves together safely, but when unmarried male and female friends pray together, they are wiser to do so in groups.”
This is a very gender-segregationist, fundamentalist Islamic type of thinking  Seriously, that is what the mosques are in too with their men and women separated during service!!! The statement in it's entirety is also quite insulting to Christians in general. I for one have NEVER thought my endocrine system was the voice of GOD, praying is not a romantic or erotic experience! IMHO it is a very twisted concept that crosses the line. I don't know about anyone else but when I pray I always close my eyes. I can't see anyone in the room with my eyes closed. Got no X-Ray vision either
Quote #2:
"For some men this may mean something as simple as avoiding long, warm baths, not looking at certain kinds of pictures, or getting up as soon as you wake up, rather than lazing in bed.
Don't be cast down. Try not to fall, but if you fall, repent and get up. If you fall again, repent again. Your frustration with your failures is the sign that God is helping you. If he weren't helping you, you wouldn't care."
I think the above quote is applicable to the following comment on this thread from the articulate Chris0121.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chris0121
My concern is that we're loading men down with guilt and shame over things that aren't necessarily sinful. For example a brother was shopping, saw a beautiful woman and had a sexual thought or two. He now comes to a brother crushed in his spirit for "lust". He feels spiritually defeated, like a spiritual failure. And here's the sad part...to many Christian men would offer to "pray for him" and encourage him not to have sexual thoughts. Guess what...that's a remedy for failure. He's a man, it's going to happen. He has no time to work for the kingdom of God or tear down the strongholds of Hell because now he's engaged in an unnecessary constant battle with his own human nature that won't change until he's probably in his nineties or dead. He's now going to live in a state of defeat. That's one soldier out of the fight. To make matters worse various "ministries" will take his money and try to teach him to be a eunuch.
Very will spoken. We need MORE Christian men. How many more are we going to chase away?
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/9/2009 8:17:58 AM
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Konstantinos
Posts: 1095
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Greece Patra
Status: offline
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I am continuing this:
http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/m_4563479/mpage_2/tm.htm
conversation here.
I also forgot I posted here. haha
So basically most of you believe that as long as you don't have the intent of actually doing anything sexual with someone other than your wife, then its not wrong?
If you were married, you think its alright to have sexual fantasies about someone other than your wife, as long as you don't act on them?
By chris' definition of sexual fantasy I take it he meant to actively think on... say... how an intercourse would go.. like a story kinda.
_____________________________
eh.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/9/2009 9:26:55 AM
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keithyhuntington
Posts: 814
Joined: 7/7/2009
From: Tulsa, Okla.
Status: offline
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i believe its ok to go "hmmm. shes hott." and then continue on with my day as said in the above illustration
quote:
You might see a beautiful woman while shopping. Your mind might capture her form and you instantly consider her a sexually attractive woman. At that point you smile as she walks by but within minutes you're more concerned with the price of the tomatoes you're buying. It's not a sin to find people sexually attractive.
that sounds perfectly fine. but to say "hmmm shes hott. i'd like to this and that and this to/with her... good lord almighty... *starts drooling*" doesnt seem all the perfectly fine.
_____________________________
Jesus Christ please help me 'cause i'm lonely. Whats the use in living, if you can't make a good living?
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/9/2009 2:05:13 PM
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Konstantinos
Posts: 1095
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Greece Patra
Status: offline
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all that perfectly fine or not that good or so and so don't really matter to me. Do you think its a sin or not? straight up. Or are you not sure?
According to Chris anyway...
quote:
Sexual Fantasy - An active thought wherein you elaborate on the idea of sex with someone. Of course sexual fantasy may or may not be accompanied with masturbation. But I'd wager that masturbation is always accompanied with fantasy. Fantasy might be something you'd NEVER truly do or perhaps something you never could do. For example, a married man might fantasize about an actress or model. But the man would never truly act on doing such a thing even if the opportunity arose. He knows the lines are drawn and therefore this is just make believe. Sexual fantasy might also involve a young man or woman fantasizing about how badly they want to be together once they're married (the Shulamite and her Lover), but the individuals know that it's fantasy and they cannot act on their desires until marriage. Also sexual fantasy might take place in an imaginary time or place. A married man and his wife might role play. They imagine him a king and she being just one of his concubines; or perhaps they imagine he's a soldier on leave and she's a woman he's paid to entertain for the evening. Maybe they imagine he's a Viking pillaging a village and she's a peaceful villager and he's ravishing her. They might fantasize about making love in a sexy couples resort or perhaps in public under the Eiffel Tower. All these things are "imaginary", they are like writing fictional stories in our minds for entertainment's sake. The husband isn't a king and would never have "concubines". The husband isn't a soldier and would never hire a lady of the evening; and certainly his wife would never sell herself. The husband isn't a viking and he'd never rape villagers and his wife would never really want to be raped. And they'd never really make love in public. No sin is committed here. It's all just fantasy.
Granted all his examples use either fantasizing about the one you want to marry or the one you are married to. Now I have no doubt that its fine if its with the one you are married.
But is it a sin if its with someone you don't even know? Is it a sin if its with the one that you aren't married yet but you are quite certain you will?
_____________________________
eh.
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RE: Resisting "The Urge" - 10/9/2009 3:22:27 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Konstantinos
all that perfectly fine or not that good or so and so don't really matter to me. Do you think its a sin or not? straight up. Or are you not sure?
According to Chris anyway...
quote:
Sexual Fantasy - An active thought wherein you elaborate on the idea of sex with someone. Of course sexual fantasy may or may not be accompanied with masturbation. But I'd wager that masturbation is always accompanied with fantasy. Fantasy might be something you'd NEVER truly do or perhaps something you never could do. For example, a married man might fantasize about an actress or model. But the man would never truly act on doing such a thing even if the opportunity arose. He knows the lines are drawn and therefore this is just make believe. Sexual fantasy might also involve a young man or woman fantasizing about how badly they want to be together once they're married (the Shulamite and her Lover), but the individuals know that it's fantasy and they cannot act on their desires until marriage. Also sexual fantasy might take place in an imaginary time or place. A married man and his wife might role play. They imagine him a king and she being just one of his concubines; or perhaps they imagine he's a soldier on leave and she's a woman he's paid to entertain for the evening. Maybe they imagine he's a Viking pillaging a village and she's a peaceful villager and he's ravishing her. They might fantasize about making love in a sexy couples resort or perhaps in public under the Eiffel Tower. All these things are "imaginary", they are like writing fictional stories in our minds for entertainment's sake. The husband isn't a king and would never have "concubines". The husband isn't a soldier and would never hire a lady of the evening; and certainly his wife would never sell herself. The husband isn't a viking and he'd never rape villagers and his wife would never really want to be raped. And they'd never really make love in public. No sin is committed here. It's all just fantasy.
Granted all his examples use either fantasizing about the one you want to marry or the one you are married to. Now I have no doubt that its fine if its with the one you are married.
But is it a sin if its with someone you don't even know? Is it a sin if its with the one that you aren't married yet but you are quite certain you will?
Isn't one of the reason you want to marry her is to have sex with her? If you can't imagine having sex with her than maybe she is more of a friend than a potential spouse. Sex is a duty of marriage the Bible says.
Let me give you a personal perspective on sin vs. fantasy. When I was a boy I used to play like I was a soldier using my fake weapons. In my arsenal I had a machine gun, flame thrower, bayonet and grenades. I would have "battles" with the kids in the neighborhood. So I was in affect having a fantasy about killing other human beings in my little combat world.
I would say all the weapons in my arsenal could cause pretty gruesome deaths, if they were real. But they weren’t, this was all “fantasy killing” in a “fantasy war”. I have never stabbed, burned or killed anyone in my life. Nor would I want to. Now do you think I sinned because I was pretending to “kill” people in combat? Did my parents sin by buying me toy weapons and soldier outfits that were used in the fantasy of killing other fantasy characters? Do I know need to go to some male healing seminar or ask God to heal me of a “spirit of violence”? You be the judge.
This poses an interesting question. Which is worse? Fantasizing about being a killer soldier or fantasizing about sex? Thing about it because killing takes a life that can’t be brought back. In real life, even if a person is forgiven of murder, the person they killed is still dead, permanently.
Konstantinos, if you told me you played toy soldier too at some point in your life, trust me I am not going to try to make you go to a seminar! I will even stay quiet if I find out you play video games that are war oriented. I will not automatically assume you are in to killing people. I know the game is just part of a computer generated fantasy world. Hey it may have cool graphics and 5.1 sound effects! If it does, I might ask to play a round with you
quote:
that sounds perfectly fine. but to say "hmmm shes hott. i'd like to this and that and this to/with her... good lord almighty... *starts drooling*" doesn’t seem all the perfectly fine.
That sounds like sexual obsession to me. That could be a problem for me. Though no more than if you obsessed about carjacking a Ferrari you were drooling over.
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