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Soul sleep? - 4/6/2008 6:17:13 PM
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Godsone
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Hi everyone. I have always been taught that after we die we either got to heaven or to hell. Recently a friend of mines that is part of the SDA religion told me about soul sleep. I just wanted to know what biblical backup can I use to show that after we die, there is no soul sleep? Thanks everyone 
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/6/2008 6:30:00 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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Good question! I don't know 
But I just wanted to say welcome to the forums!
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/6/2008 6:36:38 PM
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Godsone
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Thanks CherishedbyGod!
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/6/2008 7:11:35 PM
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LCannon
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"Soul sleep" means that when a person dies they have no conscious existence from that time on until the day of resurrection. Another definition I have come across is that the "soul sleep" of the deceased is an existence of silence, inactivity and entire unconsciousness. Actually, after death time as we know it in the physical sense is a moot point. Probably, after physical death the soul will be transported into another dimension(mum the 'Twilight Zone' theme). The resurrected Jesus had a substance to feel yet he could appear in a locked room so there's virtually no contextual basis in scripture for 'soul sleep' other then wishful thinking.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/6/2008 7:24:19 PM
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1love1God1way
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Other views are that the soul goes to be with the Lord, but since the body contains the mind (consciousness) and the physical aspect, and that doesn't get resurrected yet, there is no awareness of where one's spirit is until the resurrection.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/6/2008 8:09:11 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Now that we have thoroughly defined soul sleep, let us get to the argument...
Generally soul sleep is defended or formulate using a couple verses of Ecclesiastes that are used at the expense of what they actually mean. My main argument against soul sleep is 2 Corinthians 5...
"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him." (2 Cor 5:1-9) Notice that we are at home in the body, but when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord. If that be true, either God has no consciousness of himself, us, or anything created......... or there is a dynamic relationship with us between death and resurrection. Hope that makes sense.
Adam
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/6/2008 10:48:19 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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The body sleeps in the grave, but not the soul. Death is a separation of body and spirit.
James. 2
26 “the body without the Spirit is dead..."
When God or one of His prophets brought someone back to life, the spirit of that person returned to the body. So it was the body that was dead, not the spirit.
Luke 23
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
And what was done with his body?
Luke 23
50And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
The following story illustrates consciousness in Hades:
Luke 16:19-31
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I hope this helps a little. FurGodWurLivin used some of the verses I normally bring up (2 Cor 5:1-9).
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 7:37:31 AM
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Ad7
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Ive also been taught for a long time that our soul sleeps when we die!
I dont have any opinion as to whether we do or we dont, but i was wondering about peoples understanding on:
2Thessalonians Ch4:13-18.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
It sounds like those that die in Christ shall meet the Lord at the same time as those who are alive when He returns. ??
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The more G-d reveals, the more i realise how much remains hidden!
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 8:43:51 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ad7
Ive also been taught for a long time that our soul sleeps when we die!
I dont have any opinion as to whether we do or we dont, but i was wondering about peoples understanding on:
Read the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus. Did either experience soul sleep when they died?
Also read what Paul wrote in Philippians 1:
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better...
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 9:22:11 AM
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URForgiven
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"Absent from the body, present with the Lord."
Soul sleep conveys the idea of waiting. When we are freed from these earthly bodies, we are freed from the constraints of time. Heaven is eternity. There is no waiting in eternity. Eternity is. It is not what was. It is not what will be, it is simply what is.
"Waiting" is a time concept, and eternity is the absence of time.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/7/2008 9:29:33 AM >
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The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 11:31:09 AM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"Absent from the body, present with the Lord."
Soul sleep conveys the idea of waiting. When we are freed from these earthly bodies, we are freed from the constraints of time. Heaven is eternity. There is no waiting in eternity. Eternity is. It is not what was. It is not what will be, it is simply what is.
"Waiting" is a time concept, and eternity is the absence of time.
The way soul sleep people get around that, of course, is that since there is no consciousness between death and heaven, be it an hour or a millennium, then it would still instantly "feel" like you died and ended up right in heaven.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 1:55:50 PM
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DaveW
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Another attempt to define what the bible does not define.
Always dangerous.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 4:49:04 PM
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perfectWeakness129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Another attempt to define what the bible does not define.
Always dangerous.
Actually the Bible is pretty clear about this topic. Once absent from the body you are present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8) How this applies to the saints in eschetology gets pretty blurry especially when you try to schedule in time when who arrives in heaven. Time concerns don't really applie to life after death so far the Bible describes it, so sheduling becomes difficult.
The unsaved wait for judgement. The idea of soul sleep comes from the Old Testament, and was true in the Old Testament. However upon the crucifixion, when the saint of old raise from the dead as described in Matthew, there is no more waiting for those who are under grace.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 4:57:35 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"Absent from the body, present with the Lord."
Soul sleep conveys the idea of waiting. When we are freed from these earthly bodies, we are freed from the constraints of time. Heaven is eternity. There is no waiting in eternity. Eternity is. It is not what was. It is not what will be, it is simply what is.
"Waiting" is a time concept, and eternity is the absence of time.
The way soul sleep people get around that, of course, is that since there is no consciousness between death and heaven, be it an hour or a millennium, then it would still instantly "feel" like you died and ended up right in heaven.
And the flaw is that there is no "between".
I am certain our escape from these bodies is instantaneous...in the twinkling of an eye, and we will be more conscious than any awakened moment we have had in this life.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/8/2008 1:20:35 AM >
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The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/7/2008 5:34:51 PM
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Ad7
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quote:
Ive also been taught for a long time that our soul sleeps when we die!
I dont have any opinion as to whether we do or we dont, but i was wondering about peoples understanding on:
2Thessalonians Ch4:13-18.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
It sounds like those that die in Christ shall meet the Lord at the same time as those who are alive when He returns. ??
can anyone explain this scripture?
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The more G-d reveals, the more i realise how much remains hidden!
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/8/2008 2:22:16 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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The body sleeps at death and will rise when we are resurrected.
Moses died, did he not? When was his body resurrected? If he was asleep or in a state of unconsciousness, how did he converse with Christ about his impending crucifixion?
Luke 9
30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/8/2008 10:33:58 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
The body sleeps at death and will rise when we are resurrected.
Moses died, did he not? When was his body resurrected? If he was asleep or in a state of unconsciousness, how did he converse with Christ about his impending crucifixion?
Luke 9
30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Yes. I suppose the question is...when is when?
"The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matthew 27:52,53
That had to be a trip. lol.
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The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/8/2008 1:24:10 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
The body sleeps at death and will rise when we are resurrected.
Moses died, did he not? When was his body resurrected? If he was asleep or in a state of unconsciousness, how did he converse with Christ about his impending crucifixion?
Luke 9
30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Yes. I suppose the question is...when is when?
"The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matthew 27:52,53
That had to be a trip. lol.
Well, we know that Moses appeared to Christ before Christ died. We also know that Moses had died:
Deuteronomy 34
6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
Jude 1
9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/8/2008 7:04:56 PM
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Ad7
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Hmm. Thankyou Ephesians4_32. It makes sense
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/8/2008 7:29:45 PM
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Godsone
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quote:
Well, we know that Moses appeared to Christ before Christ died. this makes a lot of sense. Good point. Thank you everyone. This is a whole lot clearer for me now.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/9/2008 12:43:32 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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You're welcome, Ad7 and MND88. One thing I love about these forums is the opportunity to learn what others have found in scripture and to share what I've found. Sometimes we don't get any answers but most of the time we do.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/12/2008 1:11:20 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
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Let's look a bit closer at Moses...
If you go to the book of Jude, it tells us that Michael the Archangel resurrected Moses. Moses received a special resurrection. Jewish tradition says that three days after Moses died, the Lord came and resurrected him. We have reason to believe that that’s true because Jude:9 tells us that Moses received a special resurrection.
Moses was not the only special resurrection. There was a special resurrection when Jesus died on the Cross. The Bible says many of those who slept rose and appeared to others in the city and they ascended to Heaven with Jesus; but that was not a universal resurrection.
Lets consider King David:
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens
Kind David is NOT in heaven??? Why not? If we go to heaven when we die, shouldn’t he be there? David is described as a “man after God’s own heart.” Of all the people in the Bible outside of Moses, one would think David would be there.
In John 11:43, we see that Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead after 4 days. Yet, we find no comments from Lazarus in regards to his experience during those 4 days. This would have been a great time for the Scriptures to expound upon what happens at death, yet there is silence. If I would have been Lazarus and had gone on to heaven for 4 days, I would have done one of two things…either been angry about being put back on earth, or gone about telling the whole world about my wonderful experience. He would have made a great disciple. But yet, as I mentioned, there is silence on this subject.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
This seems abundantly clear in describing death as “sleep.” There are many other verses in Scripture that describe death as “sleep.”
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/12/2008 10:00:26 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
Let's look a bit closer at Moses...
If you go to the book of Jude, it tells us that Michael the Archangel resurrected Moses. Moses received a special resurrection. Jewish tradition says that three days after Moses died, the Lord came and resurrected him. We have reason to believe that that’s true because Jude:9 tells us that Moses received a special resurrection.
Jude 1:9 says that Michael fought with the devil over Moses' body. It doesn't say why and it doesn't say that Michael the Archangel resurrected Moses. Jewish tradition cannot be regarded as scripture.
What you are suggesting was a teaching of Ellen White of Seventh-day Adventism, but I don't see a Bible verse that says that Moses was a resurrected being at the Transfiguration. Ellen White also claimed that Michael the Archangel was Christ.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/13/2008 12:35:12 AM
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LoveYourEnemies
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If not for resurrection, what purpose do you suppose they were contending over Moses? We know that the Bible doesn't speak of resurrection until the time of Christ, yet Moses was definitely resurrected. Jude offers the only reasonable explanation IMO. Let's hear your explanation if you have one to offer!
Notice that I have already quoted that Kind David was shown not to be in heaven in Acts 2. Notice that there was a resurrection of many people after the death of Christ which tells us that people were not already in heaven once they died. In order for Moses to have come to see Jesus, there had to be a special resurrection just for him.
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RE: Soul sleep? - 4/13/2008 4:16:23 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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Acts 7
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ecclesiastes 12
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
Revelation 20:4
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
At the time of his death, David did not ascend to heaven. He went to Sheol.
Acts 2 (NIV)
34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
This just implies David did not ascend into heaven but does not state that his soul was asleep.
2 Corinthians 12
2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The apostle Paul believed that men could be conscious when soul and body are separated.
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