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Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 8:07:15 AM
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mutinywxgirl
Posts: 12737
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mutinywxgirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
quote:
Right now I'm really questioning whether I ever will get married - as it's virtually impossible to find a man where I am not the spiritual leader.
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Lisa, I don't think that should be a reason to give up. Of course, one has to marry a believer, and the ideal is for the man to be the spiritual leader, but marriage is also about love and companionship. I've known couples where the husband wasn't the greatest spiritual leader, but they were happy, and I have also known couples where the husband didn't start as a great spiritual leader, but God grew Him into it. I don't know, it just seems to me if you find someone you love who is a christian, you shouldn't have to be alone forever just because of that.
I'm not giving up - just stating the issue for me that is vitally important. So, whoever marries me must be a strong leader. I'm am not your typical woman who desires to just get married and have children. I've never wanted to have them. God has such great things in store for me, so whoever I do marry must be willing to help guide me along with God. THAT is why I need a strong leader and cannot just settle for someone where I am stronger spiritually. It won't work. So until then, I just continue on with what God is doing in my life and continue to become the great woman of God He's making me to be. Some man will be blown away when the time comes, but they have to be ready for the ride of their life, as God never does things small with me.
The above made me really start thinking about this, and I wanted to throw out something to those specifically looking to get married one day.
Scripture tells us that the man is to be the spiritual leader in the home.
Ladies - would you marry someone who was not the spiritual leader, just because you wanted to get married? If not, then what would you do if/when you found yourself in said situation?
Men - if you found yourself in a relationship with a woman who you felt was being more the leader in this area, what would you do about it?
Everyone - is this even an issue for you?
As you see above, it is huge for me. I want to know what you think, and will comment later.
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 8:16:32 AM
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Grace-N-Mercy
Posts: 6218
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Hey, Lisa! Great question. I have just a second before I leave for church, but wanted to ask for a bit of clarification. How do you define a spiritual leader? And would you be comfortable being the spiritual leader if it wasn't in the Bible? I'll give my answer a little later. Great question to be thinking about on my way to church!
< Message edited by Grace-N-Mercy -- 6/29/2008 8:22:48 AM >
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 8:41:07 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 1747
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
The above made me really start thinking about this, and I wanted to throw out something to those specifically looking to get married one day.
Scripture tells us that the man is to be the spiritual leader in the home.
quote:
by GnM
How do you define a spiritual leader?
GREAT question GnM. People around here seem to have trouble defining things like this, though it is absolutely essential to having an effective and fruitful discussion. So I will simply use my own definition and answer. If a working definition is posted later and I need to revise based on that, I will.
quote:
Ladies - would you marry someone who was not the spiritual leader, just because you wanted to get married? If not, then what would you do if/when you found yourself in said situation?
No, if the man was obviously NOT the spiritual leader in our relationship the relationship itself wouldn't likely get beyond the 4th or 5th date.
I will say, though, that men are not used to being the spiritual leaders. Women will take that job from them at the very first opportunity and run with it. I must discipline myself to allow the man to lead.
And I will also say that it is an awesome thing to be the woman in a relationship where the man wants to lead but isn't confident in himself and be able by the grace of God to shut up, stand back, let him lead and grow as a leader, honor him as the leader and find myself being led!! The woman has a LOT to do with how a man leads. She can support, honor, and encourage his leadership or she can try to force him to "lead" so that she can claim to have a strong leader...and the results are bad.
It's important to check our expectations with scripture and with grace, to make sure we are not expecting more than God expects, as well.
quote:
Everyone - is this even an issue for you?
It's an issue. Definitely.
besiderself
_____________________________
Many wise words are spoken in jest, but they don’t compare with the number of stupid words spoken in earnest.
Shallbe's Batty Belfry
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 12:11:01 PM
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mutinywxgirl
Posts: 12737
Joined: 4/29/2005
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No definition given - on purpose. We each have our own idea of what it is for us.
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 2:21:39 PM
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Grace-N-Mercy
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I think the reason I asked is because men and women each have a different idea of what spiritual leadership looks like.
For me, I would think that a spiritual leader would take responsibility for his family's spiritual well-being - taking them to church, providing an example for the children, leading family devotions, etc. Those are the easy things. But what about when his family does something they shouldn't? What should Adam have done when Eve took the apple and offered it to him? or when the serpent approached Eve? What should a spiritual leader do today when he finds his teenage son with drugs? or his daughter hanging with the wrong friends? or his wife in the arms of another man? I would want him to respond based on a leading from the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, and not necessarily in the same way that I would respond.
I have more I'm thinking of, but I want to think it over a little more.
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 2:23:45 PM
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mutinywxgirl
Posts: 12737
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Actually, the fact that men and women see this differently is part of the reason I left it open. It'll help make for better discussion.
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 3:25:25 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 1747
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mutinywxgirl
No definition given - on purpose. We each have our own idea of what it is for us.
Ok, that's fine:
I believe in the Sovereignty of God, and that He can teach us His standard of spiritual leadership as we live and grow in our lives. We don’t need to even have a discussion under those circumstances.
Some of us would welcome a scripturally-based discussion and subsequent scripturally-based definition to help us come to a more biblically sound understanding by which we can pattern our behavior.
Personally I believe that God sometimes uses others to help me understand His unchanging and trustworthy standards as we discuss His absolute truths. I have learned that this can be much less painful and challenging than learning through experience.
I truly desire to match my principles of behavior to God’s absolute truth.
So to me, GOD’S definition of “spiritual leadership” will help me conform my life to His principles, and not a definition that is made up by others or myself. That’s partly why I called for a definition.
Further, a discussion based on each person’s personal interpretation of a term (without that personal interpretation being stated) is meaningless for others…and may actually be harmful, causing participants to draw conclusions about the biblical soundness or truth of a position stated by another that are not actually based on truth at all and therefore likely to lead them to base their actions and behaviors upon that which is not truth. This is the other reason why I called for a definition.
It is perfectly ok to decide on a definition “for the sake of the discussion” without choosing that definition for oneself. That would avoid the problems mentioned in the above paragraph, at least.
Scripture calls us to study to show ourselves approved, rightly use the Word of God, and to make sure our discussions as Christians are fruitful and not vain.
I think that requires having concrete definitions for terms that can be otherwise interpreted personally.
besiderself
_____________________________
Many wise words are spoken in jest, but they don’t compare with the number of stupid words spoken in earnest.
Shallbe's Batty Belfry
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 6:42:16 PM
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Focusing
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quote:
Ladies - would you marry someone who was not the spiritual leader, just because you wanted to get married?
No way!
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 9:07:03 PM
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joy2give2u
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quote:
I wouldn't marry anyone for any reason just because I wanted to get married. I have proof too! I'm single aren't I?
Buglady your reply cracks me up........great answer lol
Now more serious reply....
quote:
Ladies - would you marry someone who was not the spiritual leader, just because you wanted to get married? If not, then what would you do if/when you found yourself in said situation? Lisa I think it is impossible. I don't think you can marry a man and the wife be the spiritual leader........
Why? Because God is the one who placed a man, a husband, in that position.......and as soon as a man becomes a husband he takes the role as spiritual leader.
Now often it can appear the woman is the spiritual leader and she may be the one walking with the Lord, her husband may not even be a christian, but he is still in the position as spiritual leader and his leadership or lack of it will dictate the spiritual direction of his family.
It may have appeared Adam was not being the spiritual leader in his family but he was even if he wasn't.........does that make sense?
God placed the man as the head of the family, spiritually, and in other ways........We women can not remove him from the position the Lord gave him in a family no matter how we try........the spiritual climate of the family will still be dictated by him whether he is leading or not.
That said no I would not marry a man who's spiritual leadership I could not submit to because by saying I do I am submitting to it....I am placing myself under the spiritual covering of my husband and submitting to his leadership whether I acknowledge that submission or not.
Now I will say I agree with Ester in that defining spiritual leadership might be helpful.
For me to submit under the spiritual leadership of a man, his walk does not need to be a mirror image of mine, nor does he have to experience God the same way I do.......but he has to believe in me and my walk with the Lord.
He has to be willing to come along beside me and step into what God is doing in my life just as I will step into what God is doing in his life........and he has to be building the Lords temple while allowing God to build his house, our house, without a ceiling.
quote:
I want to marry a man who God knows will come along side me and walk the same path I am walking......
I wrote this in another thread a few days back......this past friday God showed me what this will look like in my life....and I believe in my marriage.
I went to a praise and worship meeting in a town about an hour away with a friend.
Before the meeting I was talking to God and sharing how I would love for one of the pastors, or leaders, to speak a word over me. I have been to services where people spoke words over others but have not experienced it myself having been too skeptical in the past.
Friday night I felt I was ready for that next level in my faith.
Several times through out the service I thought someone was coming over to me but they didn't.......I asked God........pretty please......he said I want you to pray for someone .......God pointed out the person and I obeyed.
As soon as I began to pray for him my focus was off what I wanted to get from being there to letting God use me as he chose while I was there.
After praying I went back to my sit and continued worshiping........
With two songs left, a spiritual leader in the church (a pastor), walked into the row I was in.....walked right up to me.......did not say a word......did not even really look at me......he just stood shoulder to shoulder with me.....reached down took my hand in his and held it for the next two songs until he had to go up and lead the closing prayer.
If this sounds odd to you........trust me you are not the only one.....it was very strange for me.
Because I am not a hand holding type, at least not with a stranger I have never meet ,and a man no less 
Strangely though it was not his holding my hand which seemed so odd to me so much as how right it felt to me......how calming it was.....and steadying it was.......and firm it was.
Later that night, after going to bed, I asked God to show me what it meant...why did he hold my hand?
The man never said a word to me, nor did he really look at me.
Dawn this is what it will look like when the husband I have chosen for you comes along side you.........
I will never forget the strength I felt, the willingness to submit to his spiritual leadership, the steadying calmness of his hand in mine and how right it felt.
To me spiritual leadership is defined by that picture.......by that experience.........I know nothing about this man, he knows nothing about me and our walks are probably completely different.........but he came along beside me and took my hand as we stood there under open heavens letting God's glory fall on and surround us.......
I believe God lead the pastor to hold my hand to show me what it will be like when I submit to the spiritual leadership of my husband.....
It was awesome........I am so excited 
< Message edited by joy2give2u -- 6/29/2008 9:20:52 PM >
_____________________________
It is better to communicate the Spirit of what the Word says then the actual words read
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 9:24:50 PM
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cammo2006
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Indeed, not leading is leading towards ruin. I guess it's kind of like the old saying that says "failing to plan is planning to fail".
It's something which I'm a long way off from, but I think I'm starting to see the "seeds" of it now.
_____________________________
STILL can't think of a DOND. CAR STK '07
My PFY Thread
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/29/2008 9:49:54 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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I won't marry anyone I feel won't be the spiritual leader of my family. As a woman it is my duty and my honour to follow my husband, not to lead him. I would have no respect for a man I was leading around and thus wouldn't be doing my job as a Christian wife.
Not only that, but he wouldn't be a good example for my boys who need to learn what's it like to be a spiritual leader so they will one day be that man.
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/30/2008 4:09:13 PM
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Above_All
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I think another thing to think about is that sometimes, women can't help but be "leading" and they don't realize that they are. This is not only in the area of spiritually leading but just being dominant in general. Why do you think men joke about women sometimes? Some women can be a source of the role shift. It's not just men not stepping up. And kids will learn this too. I have found that it can discourage a man, therefore not taking his leadership roles seriously.
_____________________________
<--- Our engagement sketch
Table for Two...Making disciples
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/30/2008 4:58:15 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3273
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This is an issue for me, and I have waited to answer because I wanted to really get a chance to think about it.
I understand the biblical role as leader. Throughout the years I had always felt that the man should be the one who has known the Lord longer in order to be the spiritual leader. I am just thinking out loud here, but, if a man can be the pastor and the spiritual leader of a church and yet not be the spiritual senior of everyone in his congregation, is it possible that the same could hold true for a husband? Is is possible, for a man who has followed and has had an intense, serious walk with the Lord for 9-10 years, to lead a wife who has known the Lord since she was 10 and has had a serious walk for nearly 25, like myself? Really, all a leader needs to be a leader is a follower, KWIM so in my case, yes, it could work for me if he has strong leadership skills as well. This, however, may not work for all women.
_____________________________
Nadine
"It's like everything good collided today" quote from my 8yr old daughter
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/30/2008 5:06:17 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3273
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Above_All
I think another thing to think about is that sometimes, women can't help but be "leading" and they don't realize that they are. This is not only in the area of spiritually leading but just being dominant in general. Why do you think men joke about women sometimes? Some women can be a source of the role shift. It's not just men not stepping up. And kids will learn this too. I have found that it can discourage a man, therefore not taking his leadership roles seriously.
Really it is very simple. I had 18 month old twins at my house for a week. When one tried to take what the other had, they had two choices, give in, or pull back and send the message that this is mine and I am keeping it. If an 18 month old can do it, so can a man and I have no respect for a man who will not insist on taking his leadership back, even from me.
_____________________________
Nadine
"It's like everything good collided today" quote from my 8yr old daughter
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/30/2008 5:39:32 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mutinywxgirl
Men - if you found yourself in a relationship with a woman who you felt was being more the leader in this area, what would you do about it?
Everyone - is this even an issue for you?
(OK peeps, donning flame proof undergarments just in case )
I have a very strong personality. Therefore the woman I take as wife must have a strong personality also lest she get overshadowed to a hideous degree. She'll be a leader type person.
The husband is the head of the house. He is directly answerable to God for everything that happens in that house. If the kids mess up, it's his fault. If the wife overspends, it's his fault. If sin comes into the house, it's his fault.
The husband is the head of the wife. The bible directs him to take her opinions and concerns into consideration, to cherish her, to give his life for her, but at the end of the day, he, and he alone, bears the responsibility.
I always explained it this way. If a family were a company, then the husband owns 50.00001% of the stock and the wife owns the rest (kids have no votes). He'd be insane not to try to reach compromise with his wife (Who wants to live with an unhappy woman?) but he has to make, and answer for, the decision. As long as the wife is in agreement on this it's not a problem.
A family is a growing organism. It is alive. Anything with more than one head is unnatural and doomed to an early death. God appointed the husband to be the head.
That doesn't mean that the husband will lead in every instance. He can delegate his authority. M was the head of the banner ministry in every church we attended. When she was working in her ministry I answered to her. M was the social director of our house. She was gifted with people skills and scheduling. So I answered to her on those issues.
But I was the head of the household and we were in agreement on that. I don't see any way it could be otherwise and still be biblical.
quote:
ORIGINAL: besiderself
And I will also say that it is an awesome thing to be the woman in a relationship where the man wants to lead but isn't confident in himself and be able by the grace of God to shut up, stand back, let him lead and grow as a leader, honor him as the leader and find myself being led!! The woman has a LOT to do with how a man leads. She can support, honor, and encourage his leadership or she can try to force him to "lead" so that she can claim to have a strong leader...and the results are bad.
This just had to be stated again. So very true. A woman can turn a non-leader man into a leader just by encouraging him to lead. For most men, our wives opinion is the single most important earthly opinion we hear. You can build us up, or you can destroy us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: joy2give2u
Why? Because God is the one who placed a man, a husband, in that position.......and as soon as a man becomes a husband he takes the role as spiritual leader.
Now often it can appear the woman is the spiritual leader and she may be the one walking with the Lord, her husband may not even be a christian, but he is still in the position as spiritual leader and his leadership or lack of it will dictate the spiritual direction of his family.
This is exactly true. The man will either lead you to good or lead you to ruin, but he's going to lead you.
quote:
With two songs left, a spiritual leader in the church (a pastor), walked into the row I was in.....walked right up to me.......did not say a word......did not even really look at me......he just stood shoulder to shoulder with me.....reached down took my hand in his and held it for the next two songs until he had to go up and lead the closing prayer.
...
I will never forget the strength I felt, the willingness to submit to his spiritual leadership, the steadying calmness of his hand in mine and how right it felt.
The concept of hand in hand has always meant a lot to me. (See the Rebirth poem in the "poem time" thread (post 79)
quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
Throughout the years I had always felt that the man should be the one who has known the Lord longer in order to be the spiritual leader.
Paul was saved for a much shorter period of time than many of the disciples of his day. They had walked with the Lord in the flesh yet he was their leader in many ways.
Time is not a valid measure of Christian maturity or calling. I've met baby Christians who were saved thirty years ago and I've met mighty men of God who have put me to shame who were saved many years after I was.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/30/2008 6:09:20 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3273
Joined: 2/11/2008
From: The Hundred Acre Wood
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: mutinywxgirl
Men - if you found yourself in a relationship with a woman who you felt was being more the leader in this area, what would you do about it?
Everyone - is this even an issue for you?
(OK peeps, donning flame proof undergarments just in case )
What about the rest of you?
quote:
I have a very strong personality. Therefore the woman I take as wife must have a strong personality also lest she get overshadowed to a hideous degree. She'll be a leader type person.
The husband is the head of the house. He is directly answerable to God for everything that happens in that house. If the kids mess up, it's his fault. If the wife overspends, it's his fault. If sin comes into the house, it's his fault.
The husband is the head of the wife. The bible directs him to take her opinions and concerns into consideration, to cherish her, to give his life for her, but at the end of the day, he, and he alone, bears the responsibility.
I always explained it this way. If a family were a company, then the husband owns 50.00001% of the stock and the wife owns the rest (kids have no votes). He'd be insane not to try to reach compromise with his wife (Who wants to live with an unhappy woman?) but he has to make, and answer for, the decision. As long as the wife is in agreement on this it's not a problem.
A family is a growing organism. It is alive. Anything with more than one head is unnatural and doomed to an early death. God appointed the husband to be the head.
That doesn't mean that the husband will lead in every instance. He can delegate his authority. M was the head of the banner ministry in every church we attended. When she was working in her ministry I answered to her. M was the social director of our house. She was gifted with people skills and scheduling. So I answered to her on those issues.
But I was the head of the household and we were in agreement on that. I don't see any way it could be otherwise and still be biblical.
All this was true in our home as well. Our home and lives would have fallen apart if I was not doing the management of those things. My answer referred to the position of Spiritual leader only. Every couple has to work out the roles of husband and wife as they see fit with him taking the lead. We are his help meet....every man needs to be "helped" differently IYKWIM.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
Throughout the years I had always felt that the man should be the one who has known the Lord longer in order to be the spiritual leader.
quote:
Paul was saved for a much shorter period of time than many of the disciples of his day. They had walked with the Lord in the flesh yet he was their leader in many ways.
Time is not a valid measure of Christian maturity or calling. I've met baby Christians who were saved thirty years ago and I've met mighty men of God who have put me to shame who were saved many years after I was.
Exactly!
< Message edited by WaitingforBoaz -- 6/30/2008 6:17:43 PM >
_____________________________
Nadine
"It's like everything good collided today" quote from my 8yr old daughter
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RE: Spiritual Leadership - 6/30/2008 11:53:08 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 2694
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
This is an issue for me, and I have waited to answer because I wanted to really get a chance to think about it.
I understand the biblical role as leader. Throughout the years I had always felt that the man should be the one who has known the Lord longer in order to be the spiritual leader. I am just thinking out loud here, but, if a man can be the pastor and the spiritual leader of a church and yet not be the spiritual senior of everyone in his congregation, is it possible that the same could hold true for a husband? Is is possible, for a man who has followed and has had an intense, serious walk with the Lord for 9-10 years, to lead a wife who has known the Lord since she was 10 and has had a serious walk for nearly 25, like myself? Really, all a leader needs to be a leader is a follower, KWIM so in my case, yes, it could work for me if he has strong leadership skills as well. This, however, may not work for all women.
I think that's a really good point. In any enterprise, the leader is not necessarily the most talented, knowledgeable, or capable person at the task. But they can delegate, receive counsel, and make decisions. In other words, lead. So I would agree that the man does not necessarily have to be more spiritually mature in order to be the spiritual leader of the home. Although I don't think the disparity should be too large, either.
-Robb
_____________________________
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - II Corinthians 5:17
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