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Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; attack congregation
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 10:28:44 AM
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WesP
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I cannot really respond to the he said-she said details, but I do wonder when people are going to be smart enough not to pry when someone is pulled over or being questioned by police. That is inviting trouble because the officer then has to divide attention, and that can be deadly.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 11:11:29 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4173
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That was really dumb. He's lucky the cop used a taser.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 11:21:58 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1822
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I guess the OP has a problem with police, the title points in that direction anyway. The congregants were not attacked, the police used pepper spray when they were approached by 30+ people. The pastor would not have been tased had he not chosen to interfere in police business.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 11:26:34 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I cannot really respond to the he said-she said details, but I do wonder when people are going to be smart enough not to pry when someone is pulled over or being questioned by police. That is inviting trouble because the officer then has to divide attention, and that can be deadly.
There would have to be some witnesses that had
no part in the game to come to any conclusions.
As a pastor I may go and ask if I could help, but to
bring the membership out seems a bit much.
But like you say, dividing the officers attention isn't
the smart thing to do. If it was an obvious pull over,
I'd mind my own business.
If there was a problem, calling 911 or the police station
may have been a better decision.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 11:48:09 AM
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EStan
Posts: 124
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From the article:
quote:
"They treated him as if he were a drug dealer or murderer, but he is a pastor that tries to help the community," Moran said. "The police always want to be right but they are not."
Ok, when a police officer is doing an investigation, I don't care if it's your mom he stopped, the best course of action is stay out of the way.
Also, if it's true that the pastor came back out with about 30 members of his congregation, the officer would have to immediately assume he was in danger.
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:00:03 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2606
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quote:
Ok, when a police officer is doing an investigation, I don't care if it's your mom he stopped, the best course of action is stay out of the way.
I agree.
_____________________________
Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:04:24 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2902
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From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
I guess the OP has a problem with police, the title points in that direction anyway. The congregants were not attacked, the police used pepper spray when they were approached by 30+ people. The pastor would not have been tased had he not chosen to interfere in police business.
I have no problem with police. I have a problem with the police using unnecessary force.
I guess the person who made this comment has a problem with pentecostal pastors who ask police what's going on. The pastor would have been wise to stay away, but if the pastor wasn't being violent, there was no reason to use a taser.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:10:32 PM
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ourgreatestSource
Posts: 732
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quote:
I cannot really respond to the he said-she said details
I'm borrowing that from 1st poster.
"Nowdays" because of other cases, all over the place between police and people.. I have to ask where is the video from police car camera showing the facts? Where is the video from cell phone and others, from the witness showing the facts? If there is none I will wait for investigation and etc.
A simple traffic stop can escalate into a crime, police officers can be hurt and even killed ..even by people having nothing to do with the stopping, as people are run over by other cars and etc.
Another situation as depending where you live in US tensions between police and different community is into place already. Than if I were law and order person I would have my camera on, all the time, to show what is going on. There are bad apples inside police force, there are even police impersonators around, making traffic stops, etc.
_____________________________
"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:12:53 PM
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GraceyGirl
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Here's the thing - the taser was used b/c the cop was OUTNUMBERED 30 to 1 and the pastor was obviously the ringleader. It's not the pastors business what the police are doing, period. Had the driver of the car fled into the church, I could see the pastor getting involved a little bit. But this man went outdoors LOOKING for a confrontation. He should have been arrested. No argument there.
_____________________________
God called. He'd like His church back.
~John Wimber~
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:17:04 PM
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earthless
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Some people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.
The officer did his job correctly - people need to learn to respect them. And learn that they have no clue about their procedures and tactics.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:17:30 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2902
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
Here's the thing - the taser was used b/c the cop was OUTNUMBERED 30 to 1 and the pastor was obviously the ringleader. It's not the pastors business what the police are doing, period. Had the driver of the car fled into the church, I could see the pastor getting involved a little bit. But this man went outdoors LOOKING for a confrontation. He should have been arrested. No argument there.
For what? The pastor:
1.) Was on church property.
2.) Was being non-violent
3.) Was merely asking what was going on.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:19:33 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1822
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I have no problem with police. I have a problem with the police using unnecessary force.
A policeman used pepper spray against 30 people who were confronting him, how is that "attacking" as you called it? Had you stated that a policeman sprayed 30 people with gas then i would have had no basis for my assumption but you decided to color the policeman in a negative light by claiming it was an attack.
quote:
I guess the person who made this comment has a problem with pentecostal pastors who ask police what's going on. The pastor would have been wise to stay away, but if the pastor wasn't being violent, there was no reason to use a taser.
I have no problem with a pastor, i have a problem with the idiotic actions he took. The policeman had a person pulled over, which is his job and there are zero reports that the policeman was doing anything out of the ordinary in this traffic stop yet he was approached by an unknown person. As a police officer it is not out of the question for bystanders to get in their face. A police officer must maintain control of the situation at hand if he is to ensure his own safety, the safety of the person he has pulled over, and possibly the safety of the person approaching the traffic stop. What if the pastor, with good intent, distracts the policeman and the person being pulled over happens to have felony warrants and is not willing to go to jail and attacks the cop? Say it can't happen? I have a good friend whose brother has a .25 caliber slug lodged next to his spine just below the base of his skull from just that sort of incident and the worst part is the bystander that approached the policeman is no longer with us because the wanted felon that the cop had pulled over was so interested in getting away that in trying to shoot the policeman he put a bullet in a bystanders neck that had come to his aid to see what the cop was doing. Policeman face just these sorts of issues daily and for you to color them defending themselves as attacking others shows a bias against them.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:21:20 PM
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GraceyGirl
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Non violent is not the same as non confrontational. Federal law ACROSS THE BOARD indicates that civilians will NOT interefere with a law enforcement officers intent to carry out their duties. Period. And if you do, you are liable to be:
1) arrested
2) tazed
3) shot
The pastor should have NEVER brought 30 people outside to confront this cop. Very STUPID move on his part, and frankly, had this police officer been injured as a result of this pastor's MALINTENT, the copy could have sued the pastor and the church.
American citizens have the right to expect reasonable protection from the officers in their county. They do NOT have the right to interfere with the carrying out of their duties, no matter who the police have stopped or if they question the cop.
_____________________________
God called. He'd like His church back.
~John Wimber~
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:23:11 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2902
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From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Some people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.
The officer did his job correctly - people need to learn to respect them. And learn that they have no clue about their procedures and tactics.
Well, looks like the officer wasn't the only one who never received training on Escalation of Force:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/uscg/deadly-force.doc
This should be REQUIRED for any police officer who carries any sort of weapon.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:24:57 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1822
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
Here's the thing - the taser was used b/c the cop was OUTNUMBERED 30 to 1 and the pastor was obviously the ringleader. It's not the pastors business what the police are doing, period. Had the driver of the car fled into the church, I could see the pastor getting involved a little bit. But this man went outdoors LOOKING for a confrontation. He should have been arrested. No argument there.
For what? The pastor:
1.) Was on church property.
Doesn't matter, the policeman was executing a lawful stop and the pastor interferred.
quote:
2.) Was being non-violent
not according to the policeman, only according to the congregants who by the way were in the church during the altercation.
quote:
3.) Was merely asking what was going on.
Which is absolutely, positively, none of his darn business. The pastor would have standing for interfereing if and only if the policeman was acting improperly .
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:26:30 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2902
Joined: 10/12/2007
From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
Non violent is not the same as non confrontational. Federal law ACROSS THE BOARD indicates that civilians will NOT interefere with a law enforcement officers intent to carry out their duties. Period. And if you do, you are liable to be:
1) arrested
2) tazed
3) shot
Given that this situation would involve state law, I am uncertain about the validity of your claims about this situation.
quote:
American citizens have the right to expect reasonable protection from the officers in their county. They do NOT have the right to interfere with the carrying out of their duties, no matter who the police have stopped or if they question the cop.
Nobody was interfering with anyone's duties. People have a right to watch what's going on and even ask questions- they don't have the right to have them answered, but there is nothing illegal about asking what's going on if someone is pulled over on your property.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:27:39 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2902
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From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
not according to the policeman, only according to the congregants who by the way were in the church during the altercation.
Are you saying that 30 members of the Pentecostal church would lie about what they saw? I thought that Christian conservativism teaches people to be honest and upstanding members of society...?
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:28:21 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1822
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Some people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.
The officer did his job correctly - people need to learn to respect them. And learn that they have no clue about their procedures and tactics.
Well, looks like the officer wasn't the only one who never received training on Escalation of Force:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/uscg/deadly-force.doc
This should be REQUIRED for any police officer who carries any sort of weapon.
actually according to the congregants themselves the cop took the steps outlined in that document. He started with the differing levels of verbal persuasion and moved to physical conflict only after that.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:29:40 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1822
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
not according to the policeman, only according to the congregants who by the way were in the church during the altercation.
Are you saying that 30 members of the Pentecostal church would lie about what they saw? I thought that Christian conservativism teaches people to be honest and upstanding members of society...?
No i am saying that they weren't at the pastor's side when the original encounter happened, according to their own statements. I am also saying that human nature affects even good Christians and there is a reflex to support one's own.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:31:50 PM
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GraceyGirl
Posts: 348
Joined: 6/4/2006
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quote:
Nobody was interfering with anyone's duties. People have a right to watch what's going on and even ask questions- they don't have the right to have them answered, but there is nothing illegal about asking what's going on if someone is pulled over on your property.
Yes, he was. He does NOT have the right to approach a policeman and INTERFERE with that policeman's duties. Period. Distracting an officer could have had detrimental consequences.
Secondly, the pastor does not own the church property, so it is NOT his private property. The appropriate way to handle this would have been for the pastor and congregation to file a complaint with the city if they so choose.
Thirdly, federal law trumps state when it comes to the protection of their agents. We saw this shortly after Katrina when Gracey herself, along with her NG unit and command assumed command and assited the NO police in the carrying out of their duties.
Fourth - would i believe that "pentecostal" people would put a spin on things to suit their needs? Absolutely. The same as a "baptist" or "methodist." There are not "chosen" people where truth is concerned.
_____________________________
God called. He'd like His church back.
~John Wimber~
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:33:29 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1822
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Are you saying that 30 members of the Pentecostal church would lie about what they saw? I thought that Christian conservativism teaches people to be honest and upstanding members of society...?
I will further claim that had the pastor and his 30 congregants showed respect for an officer who was in no way acting outside of the bounds of his duties and by no account was violating any rights of the person he had pulled over they would have had zero problems that day. In fact they are lucky that thirty people approaching a single officer was not perceived as the very realy threat that it could be and that the officer chose pepper spray first. The officer's choice to spray them placed him at a greater level of danger since he would most likely be unable to draw his weapon and defend himself had the congregation attacked since he took the time to go for the spray first.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:34:52 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2902
Joined: 10/12/2007
From: NYC by way of Chicago
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
actually according to the congregants themselves the cop took the steps outlined in that document. He started with the differing levels of verbal persuasion and moved to physical conflict only after that.
A taser is considered to be deadly (although less-lethal) force. Deadly force is justified only in these cases:
quote:
Deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity and as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed. Deadly force is justified under one or more of the following circumstances:
Self Defense and Defense of Others When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to protect law enforcement or security personnel who reasonably believe themselves or others to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. (Note: Other documents specify that punches, shoves, and other "minor" attacks do not justify deadly force.)
Assets Involving National Security. When deadly force reasonably appears necessary to prevent the actual theft or sabotage of assets vital to national security. DoD assets shall be specifically designated as "vital to national security" only when their loss, damage, or compromise would seriously jeopardize the fulfillment of a national defense mission. Examples include nuclear weapons; nuclear command, control, and communications facilities; and designated restricted areas containing strategic operational assets, sensitive codes, or special access programs.
c. Assets Not Involving National Security but Inherently Dangerous to Others. When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the actual theft or sabotage of resources, such as operable weapons or ammunition, that are inherently dangerous to others; i.e., assets that, in the hands of an unauthorized individual, present a substantial potential danger of death or serious bodily harm to others. Examples include high-risk portable and lethal missiles, rockets, arms, ammunition, explosives, chemical agents, and special nuclear material.
d. Serious Offenses Against Persons. When deadly force reasonably appears necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offense involving violence and threatening death or serious bodily harm. Examples include murder, armed robbery, and aggravated assault.
e. Arrest or Apprehension. When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to arrest, apprehend, or prevent the escape of a person who, there is probable cause to believe they have committed an offense of the nature specified in subsections 2a through 2d above.
f. Escapes. When deadly force has been specifically authorized by the Heads of the DoD Components and reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the escape of a prisoner, provided law enforcement or security personnel have probable cause to believe that the escaping prisoner poses a threat of serious bodily harm either to security personnel or others.
DEADLY FORCE PRECONDITIONS:
.....
c. INTENT: A hostile or dangerous person must clearly indicate the INTENT to cause damage to protected resources, or bodily harm to others. Are they actually aiming a weapon or other dangerous object in a fashion that is capable of, and is obviously being used with the intention of, inflicting damage or serious bodily harm to persons.
'Nuff said. None of the preconditons or justifications for the use of a taser were met. He obviously should have been arrested if he shoved the officer. But the deadly weapon was completely uncalled for.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:36:19 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5278
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Some people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.
The officer did his job correctly - people need to learn to respect them. And learn that they have no clue about their procedures and tactics.
Well, looks like the officer wasn't the only one who never received training on Escalation of Force:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/uscg/deadly-force.doc
This should be REQUIRED for any police officer who carries any sort of weapon.
No, of course not.
Next time I am conducting an arrest I will allow 30 people to bum rush and try to interfere. I should just forget about going home to my wife and kids.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/2/2009 12:38:28 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5278
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
A taser is considered to be deadly
By who?
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
(although less-lethal) force.
That's an oxymoron and a contradiction. Either it is or it isn't.
Guess what? It is considered non-lethal.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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