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The Biblical Kind - 10/20/2009 5:19:35 PM
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cih92
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According to the book of Genesis, animals reproduce after their own kind. What is a kind? Where do you draw the line between something being of the same kind and something not being of the same kind?
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/20/2009 6:23:08 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
According to the book of Genesis, animals reproduce after their own kind. What is a kind? Where do you draw the line between something being of the same kind and something not being of the same kind?
That's a study known as "Baraminology". It's not as straightforward as labeling something as a "Bird kind" or a "dog kind". There are some researchers who publish papers on the topic:
http://documents.clubexpress.com/documents.ashx?key=aIOlplFPjJdwan1dNOHNViTh4xsAXBye5qI2KrqAzag%3d
The word "kind" is synonymous with the word "baramin" and actually refers to the originally created populations of animals that were capable of interbreeding. From there we have some smaller populations that can't interbreed with their parent population, and we refer to this as "speciation". This doesn't mean that there is a new Kind only a new species. A Creationist would hold to the belief that you can never create a new kind of animal, only that the kinds are capable of varying to the point of speciation.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/20/2009 6:36:00 PM
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demolay
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quote:
http://documents.clubexpress.com/documents.ashx?key=aIOlplFPjJdwan1dNOHNViTh4xsAXBye5qI2KrqAzag%3d
Cool website! Thanks, Dan.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/20/2009 6:51:24 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
quote:
http://documents.clubexpress.com/documents.ashx?key=aIOlplFPjJdwan1dNOHNViTh4xsAXBye5qI2KrqAzag%3d
Cool website! Thanks, Dan.
Thanks, Demolay. It comes from this website:
http://www.creationbiology.org/
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/22/2009 2:13:18 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
The word "kind" is synonymous with the word "baramin"
Actually the word 'kind" in Hebrew is 'min/מין', 'bara/ברא' in Hebrew is the root for 'to create', so 'bara min' really means 'created kind.' Note: this is not a biblical term as this phrase is never found in Scripture. However, the concept can be found in Ge. 1:21.
ויברא אלהים את־התנינם הגדלים ואת כל־נפשׁ החיה הרמשׂת אשׁר שׁרצו המים למינהם ואת כל־עוף כנף למינהו וירא אלהים כי־טוב
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/24/2009 4:31:06 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
That's a study known as "Baraminology". It's not as straightforward as labeling something as a "Bird kind" or a "dog kind". There are some researchers who publish papers on the topic:
would you agree withe the following statement?
"Creation scientists posit that the defining element of kinds is approved by bariminologists of creation science through evidence for common lines of ancestry among the organisms. The few creationists who work to make such classifications have not so far come up with a consistent set of rules for establishing when this criteria is met within evolutionary taxonomy."
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/24/2009 6:20:13 PM
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StephenJ
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I've wondered the same thing.
Was there one "big cat" kind? What about clearly related animals like sea turtles and desert tortises that are very similar but also very diffrent? One lives in the water, and one lives in a much more dry place. Are they of the same "kind?"
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/25/2009 1:22:57 AM
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schtumpy
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I'm still waiting to see the evidence as to how these various "kinds" split into so many thousands of different species in such a short time.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/25/2009 7:00:42 AM
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jfcbrian
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
I'm still waiting to see the evidence as to how these various "kinds" split into so many thousands of different species in such a short time.
I think that you are confusing this with evolution, unlike evolution created kinds would not have to rewrite DNA to diverge into similar kinds.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/25/2009 9:24:30 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
I'm still waiting to see the evidence as to how these various "kinds" split into so many thousands of different species in such a short time.
However, the fact that they did do this is demonstraited in the fossil record; this is why we have evolutionists inventing crazy theories like punctuated equalibrium to try and explain this clear feature of the fossil record.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/25/2009 1:38:01 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
I'm still waiting to see the evidence as to how these various "kinds" split into so many thousands of different species in such a short time.
However, the fact that they did do this is demonstraited in the fossil record; this is why we have evolutionists inventing crazy theories like punctuated equalibrium to try and explain this clear feature of the fossil record.
Sorry but punctuated equalibrium is just as crazy as commited plant eaters suddenly switching to being meat eater as some prominent Y.E.C creationist believe.
But back to the point, the rate of species development or spliting within "kinds" that Y.E.C creationist suggest is like evolution on steroids. Where most evolutionist give these changes millions of years to occur, young Earth creationist give a few hundred or thousand years. That's a break neck speed for biological changes in complex creatures. I mean I'm still trying to figure out how whatever created testudines "kind" could have split into both land (again desert tortises) and sea (sea turtle) variations so quickly. For all the jokes creationist make about land dwelling creatures turning into whales, that to me seems even more bizzare.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/25/2009 6:43:26 PM
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schtumpy
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Yes.
My key point was the "short period of time".
Creationists are tryig to convince us that one kind of cat, for example, led to lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars, cheetahs, cougars (the 4 legged kind) and lynxes etc in a very short period - two to four thousand years at most - and that further, since these changes took place, that these species have remained comparatively stable.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/25/2009 7:42:56 PM
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StephenJ
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Right so basically the question becomes why don't we see that kind of rapid change today? Old Earthers would say that it's happening but very slowly, I don't see how young Earths can hold to the idea of rapid species diffrenciation and the relatively slow pace of change today.
I want to go back to our shelled friends the testudines. If we were to say that there was one archetype of testudine in the garden of Eden 10,000 to 6,000 years ago we're faced with not only what Shakezula described (rapid migration of very slow moving animals), but other things as well. We have to deal with how, in only a few millenium some turtles, migrated inland, turned their fins into feet, migrated to remote dry regions, and became the modern day desert tortise.
It's pretty crazy.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 10/25/2009 8:01:17 PM >
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/30/2009 6:07:06 PM
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demolay
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
Right so basically the question becomes why don't we see that kind of rapid change today? Old Earthers would say that it's happening but very slowly, I don't see how young Earths can hold to the idea of rapid species diffrenciation and the relatively slow pace of change today.
I want to go back to our shelled friends the testudines. If we were to say that there was one archetype of testudine in the garden of Eden 10,000 to 6,000 years ago we're faced with not only what Shakezula described (rapid migration of very slow moving animals), but other things as well. We have to deal with how, in only a few millenium some turtles, migrated inland, turned their fins into feet, migrated to remote dry regions, and became the modern day desert tortise.
It's pretty crazy.
Hi Stephen,
What do you think of the claim that most of the hundreds of breeds of domestic dogs were created in the last 200 years? Rapid variation, or do you not believe it?
Likewise, what about the claim that domestic hares have spread to every corner of Australia, where once there were none, in less than 100 years? What do you think? Truth or fiction?
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/30/2009 10:49:25 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Right so basically the question becomes why don't we see that kind of rapid change today? Just google "evidence for rapid speciation" and enjoy reading some of the 31,600 hits. You really should do a little more research on your own, SJ.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 1:30:42 AM
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malchediel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
Yes.
My key point was the "short period of time".
Creationists are tryig to convince us that one kind of cat, for example, led to lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars, cheetahs, cougars (the 4 legged kind) and lynxes etc in a very short period - two to four thousand years at most - and that further, since these changes took place, that these species have remained comparatively stable.
I'm not versed very well in evolutionary, young earth or old earth studies, so please be gentle. Where can I find information about what you are referring to (Creationists trying to convince us that one kind of cat...).
However, with that being said, the Bible states God said, "produce living creatures after their kind". Couldn't that mean that when God created "cats", He created "housecats", tigers, lions, etc... and that they reproduce after their kind (little cats and big cats)?
Couldn't the same be said of land and sea turtles? Perhaps God created land and sea turtles as two separate kinds?
< Message edited by malchediel -- 10/31/2009 1:38:16 AM >
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 2:28:00 AM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Just google "evidence for rapid speciation" and enjoy reading some of the 31,600 hits. You really should do a little more research on your own, SJ.
you can also get thousands of hits about alien abductions and the loch ness monster. volume doesn't equal credibility.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 4:14:50 AM
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ataraxical
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"alien abductions" produced 1,220,000 hits
"loch ness monster" produced 879,000 hits
"evidence for rapid speciation" produced 345,000 hits
By DRmark's reasoning, this is the order of credibility that we should follow...
But it is based on the common fallacy of Argumentum ad populum
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 4:18:17 AM
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malchediel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ataraxical
"alien abductions" produced 1,220,000 hits
"loch ness monster" produced 879,000 hits
"evidence for rapid speciation" produced 345,000 hits
By DRmark's reasoning, this is the order of credibility that we should follow...
But it is based on the common fallacy of Argumentum ad populum
I dunno... how many scholars, scientists, etc... are responsible for the 345grand, vs. the others?
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Your closest relative is a monkey and your distant cousins are bananas and turnips - Richard Dawkins, PhD. (insert "laugh track" here) |
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 5:27:47 AM
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ataraxical
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quote:
ORIGINAL: malchediel
quote:
ORIGINAL: ataraxical
"alien abductions" produced 1,220,000 hits
"loch ness monster" produced 879,000 hits
"evidence for rapid speciation" produced 345,000 hits
By DRmark's reasoning, this is the order of credibility that we should follow...
But it is based on the common fallacy of Argumentum ad populum
I dunno... how many scholars, scientists, etc... are responsible for the 345grand, vs. the others?
The answer to that question is this valid.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 9:21:42 AM
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drmark
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quote:
you can also get thousands of hits about alien abductions and the loch ness monster. volume doesn't equal credibility.
quote:
By DRmark's reasoning, this is the order of credibility that we should follow... Unbelievable! The first five hits to show are peer-reviewed scientific articles published in evolutionary-leaning journals and you brush it off with fallacious arguments! And you guys wonder why creationists have such disdain for your theory masquerading as scientism. This is the height of intellectual dishonesty...
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 1:29:05 PM
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ataraxical
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
you can also get thousands of hits about alien abductions and the loch ness monster. volume doesn't equal credibility.
quote:
By DRmark's reasoning, this is the order of credibility that we should follow... Unbelievable! The first five hits to show are peer-reviewed scientific articles published in evolutionary-leaning journals and you brush it off with fallacious arguments! And you guys wonder why creationists have such disdain for your theory masquerading as scientism. This is the height of intellectual dishonesty...
This is an approvement, although there still is no argument or discussion here of the subject. The objection was directed to you for stating that simply because there were 345,000 hits or so in google that therefore its credible etc.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 1:47:25 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
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quote:
The objection was directed to you for stating that simply because there were 345,000 hits or so in google that therefore its credible etc. Nice try for changing the subject, ataraxical! The "objection" was directed at StephenJ for not doing his research before claiming we "don't see rapid change today". Obviously that claim is wrong, regardless of your flawed statistics!
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 4:54:07 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
Right so basically the question becomes why don't we see that kind of rapid change today? Old Earthers would say that it's happening but very slowly, I don't see how young Earths can hold to the idea of rapid species diffrenciation and the relatively slow pace of change today.
I want to go back to our shelled friends the testudines. If we were to say that there was one archetype of testudine in the garden of Eden 10,000 to 6,000 years ago we're faced with not only what Shakezula described (rapid migration of very slow moving animals), but other things as well. We have to deal with how, in only a few millenium some turtles, migrated inland, turned their fins into feet, migrated to remote dry regions, and became the modern day desert tortise.
It's pretty crazy.
Hi Stephen,
What do you think of the claim that most of the hundreds of breeds of domestic dogs were created in the last 200 years? Rapid variation, or do you not believe it?
Likewise, what about the claim that domestic hares have spread to every corner of Australia, where once there were none, in less than 100 years? What do you think? Truth or fiction?
But you see I'm not talking about wolves turning into huskies over a few thousand years. I'm talking about turtles having their fins turn into legs, and loose their aquatic nature over a geologically short amount of time.
Of course animals migrate, nobody is arguing that they don't. I'm just saying some don't migrate that quickly.
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RE: The Biblical Kind - 10/31/2009 5:09:29 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
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quote:
I'm talking about turtles having their fins turn into legs, and loose their aquatic nature over a geologically short amount of time. Who in the name of science believes this concept, SJ?! Certainly not YECs or godless evolutionists.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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