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The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 3:24:55 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 197
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I recently posted a thread about a passage in Deuteronomy 13. In it, the faithful are asked to stone non-believers to death. One of the replies said that such advice would only apply under the Old Covenant, and therefore not now.
First question: what exactly is the Old Covenant?
But in the recent thread on ghost hunting, someone cited Deuteronomy 18 to support the view that God doesn't want us to consult with the dead.
Therefore, second question: does advice not also only apply under the Old Covenant? Unless I've badly misunderstood things, surely you can't take one but not the other (although that's the most preferable course of action...).
Thanks
AiP
___
edited for spelling
< Message edited by atheistinpeace -- 6/18/2008 3:32:42 PM >
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 5:04:28 PM
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Narcil
Posts: 22
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From: San Diego, CA
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Hi AiP,
First, Deuteronomy 18 contains passages speaking about the portion of the sacrifices which should go to the priests for their support, since they received no portion of land from God, and a stern forbidding of spiritism of all kinds.
As far as Deuteronomy 13 is concerned, you have it a little bit wrong. The passage does talk about putting to death (the text doesn't refer to stoning specifically) "one from among you" (i.e. another Jew) who advocates idolatry, not unbelief. This death penalty would not apply to the local pagan gentile.
What is the Old Covenant? I'll do my best to keep this short.
When the Jews left Egypt their understanding of God could pretty much be summed up as: They knew there was One God, and that they should worship Him. During the time the Jews camped at the foot of Mount Sinai they received from God not only the Ten Commandments, but what Christians refer to as the Old Covenant and the Law as well.
A covenant was an agreement between parties, in this case between God and the people of Israel. At the beginning of Exodus 19 we see that God outlines the terms of the agreement between Himself and Israel:
Verses 5-6
"Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."
This comprises the whole of the Old Covenant. That if the Israelites would obey God then they would be a holy nation set apart for God. The Law is the details laid out in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy that explicitly explain how the Israelites were to obey God. These details consist of a large number of rules and laws that largely fall into three categories: Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral.
The Ceremonial laws largely consist of rules pertaining to the function of the Priests, religious objects, and festivals; the various offerings; issues of clean and unclean behaviors, objects, actions, etc. and how to cleanse oneself if one became "unclean."
The Moral laws teach right behavior.
The Civil laws were given as the rules of functioning for the theocratic government of the "Nation of Israel" that God was establishing. The civil laws dealt with criminal acts and the punishments for such acts, they established rules for fair and just dealing with neighbors and business partners, etc.; much like our civil laws today do. The main difference between our civil laws today and the theocratic civil laws of the Nation of Israel is that a number of exclusively moral and ceremonial infractions (such as adultery, homosexuality, sabbath observance, etc.) carried criminal penalties.
There are couple reasons the penalty for a Jew encouraging idol worship in Deuteronomy 13 are so severe:
1. That the the most important commandment of the Law, as Jesus points out in Matthew 22:36-38, was that the Israelites should have no other gods before God. To advocate turning to idols would be a direct violation of this greatest commandment.
2. God established the Nation of Israel to be set apart from all other nations of the world, they were to be unique servants of Him. Turning away from Him in such a way destroyed the purpose of this separation.
3. The advocacy of idol worship met with the most severe penalties because of it's infectious nature. One only has to read the Books of Exodus or Judges to see how quickly and easily the Israelites turned away from God.
The reason Christians make a distinction between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that we believe that with the life, death, and bodily resurrection of Jesus the Old Covenant was fulfilled and done away with, and a new Covenant established. Jesus Himself inaugurated this New Covenant in the Upper Room Passover meal just hours before His arrest, trial and execution (Luke 22:7-23). The details of this new covenant are that God provides a way for all people to become children of God (by adoption through Christ) if we decide to obey Him.
The rest of the New Testament details how we obey Him: primarily by bowing our knee to Christ and acknowledging Him as the Lord of our life and details what this actually means.
To answer your last question as quickly as possible: The laws of the Old Covenant no longer apply because God Himself fulfilled their purpose and established the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is still useful for understanding God and His values but no one is bound by those laws any longer as God has redefined His kingdom in a greater and expanded sense in the New Covenant.
I hope that makes sense to you. Sorry it was so long, but yours are good questions that require thoughtful and full answers. Obviously, some of the theology that I have presented here is my understanding of what happened and what God was doing. I know there are Christians who disagree somewhat with what I have presented here a various points, but I have done my best to give you "just the facts" and leave my personal opinions and interpretations out of the presentation; so hopefully there will be little disagreement on most of my points.
This is a difficult and nuanced subject, so if there is anything I have written that is not clear, don't hesitate to ask for clarification. Thanks.
_____________________________
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all. But whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess." - Martin Luther
My blog: Here
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RE: The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 5:21:57 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 197
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Narcil
Thanks for taking the time to write a long and detailed explanation... I'll read through it thoroughly when I have the time and post a reply.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 6:09:05 PM
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sparkleingsnow
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Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,...
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
As Narcil said the old covenant was to the Israelites, and they were under laws. However Jesus paid the price for our sins, and we are no longer under the law. We are the children of God through his Son Jesus Christ. So we are under the New Covenant of grace.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 9:52:17 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Actually the old covenant is the as the new covenant, the difference being that the old covenant was the Torah written in stone and applied on a national basis and the new covenant is the Torah written on the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The Church is the first fruits of the new covenant but the new covenant will not be completely fulfilled until Israel and Judah are brought under the effect of the new covenant in the latter days.
All saved since the beginnings have been saved under effect of the new covenant with the understanding that salvation would not be complete until Christ died on the cross. None the less all saved in the Old Testament looked forwarded to the coming of Christ…the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 10:20:42 PM
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kingskid10
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You ask a great question. Another great question is, 'what exactly is so new about the new covenant'. Another poster referenced Jeremiah 33 which God described in advance what the New Covenant would be, and that would be writing the Torah on our hearts, enabling us to follow it. Ezekiel 36:27 also alludes to this.
The 'old' covenant was that covenant made by God between Himself and the Hebrews (by the way there were Egyptians there too b/c it says that a 'mixed multitude' came up out of Egypt w/ them). This covenant would enable the people to be the people of God, and enable the people to walk in a way to be the descendants of Avraham (see Genesis 18:19).
99% of Christianity has an improper view of the 'old' covenant, in my opinion. God gave his 'Torah' (the word in Judaism for the first 5 books of the bible) to his people at Sinai. What is interesting is that the people agreed to keep all the words God would instruct BEFORE they ever heard them (Ex 19:8).
The poster that said that the 'old' covenant is done away with, respectfully I say, is wrong. By that logic when he says that we don't have to follow any of that anymore, I ask then; can I go murder someone, or steal from them if it were legal to do so in our country? Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) clearly says in Matthew 5:17 (a verse usually misinterpreted by readers) that he did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Fulfill does not equal abolish, and abolish does not equal fulfill. Too many read that to read this way 'I did not come to abolish, but to abolish'
The traditional Jewish understanding of the Torah is that to interpret it incorrectly is the same thing as destroying it. Yeshua is saying 'Don't think that I came to incorrectly interpret the Torah, rather I came to fulfill it'. The word fulfill means to 'cause to stand on its own, to uphold. Yeshua didn't come to destroy or do away with the Torah, but rather show us how to live it out, and how to properly understand it. Then he sent his Holy Spirit to write it upon our hearts.
So, the 'old' covenant and 'new covenant' aren't hugely different nor are they opposed to each other. Now, w/ the Spirit dwelling in us, and the Torah written on our hearts, we can walk it out.
So one must ask themselves this, if the 'old' covenant isn't 'destroyed, abolished, or 'nailed to the cross' as some say, then maybe it is a little more relevant, and the things contained therein are important for us!
Lastly, to answer your question about stoning, that can't be in place even if we wanted it to because those rules like that required a functioning Sanhedrin to be in place, which there is not today. Besides we are not 'under the law', meaning under the curses for when we fall short, but the Grace Yeshua laid out for us covers us in our shortfalls.
As for sacrifices those require a Temple to be in place, so we couldn't even do those even if we would want to for whatever reason. That is a common comeback by people 'why don't you sacrifice animals!?'. If you thought 'yeah, I should do that, I'll sacrifice a cow in my backyard' you would be sinning because sacrifices were to be brought to 'the place the Lord would choose' which was the Tabernacle/Temple. This is why you don't see Jews in Israel today offering sacrifices because they understand this aspect. Sorry for the lengthyness of the reply.
Shalom
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RE: The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 10:29:14 PM
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kingskid10
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One other thing, even Peter remarks that Paul is hard to understand. If we as Christians lose sight that Paul (by his own admission) IS (not was) a Pharisee (never renouncing this), and that he was a Torah observant Jew even after Yeshua met him on the road to Damascus, then we are apt to misunderstand his words. It is easy to read Paul and think that he is against the Law and thinks it is terrible and a burden no one can bear. But don't forget what Paul says in Romans 3:31 - "Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah
Shalom!
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RE: The Old Covenant - 6/18/2008 10:32:28 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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In an attempt to consolidate for the purpose of effective moderation we have created a One Stop thread for the topic of Keeping the Law. Therefore, this thread on the topic is being closed.
Please continue your discussion there.
Here is the link:
CLICK HERE
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
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