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[Poll]
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Was Grace Always Avaliable
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| No |
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| Yes |
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| Maybe |
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| Uh? |
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Total Votes : 25
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(last vote on : 8/11/2008 11:25:46 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 1:00:41 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Was "Grace" operating before the first covenant and within the first covenant?
I believe God changes not. Grace has always been avaliable from God for a person to appeal to for repentance, forgiveness, and restoration.
Why was Adam and Eve spared immediate death? Why was Abraham allowed to go forth out of Egypt? Why was Moses spared after striking the rock? Why was David not stoned for his murder and adultery?
I believe it was God's grace that had not yet been fully manifested to all man except those who appealed to what was already avaliable. Grace has always been avaliable for a person who loves God, is repentive of sin, and desires to please God in what they do.
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Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 1:36:15 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
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From: Kansas
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"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8
Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain….or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old Testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 1:54:08 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1500
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Though this is not something that is subject to majority vote, it is good that we are clarifying this. Some believe that more was required of those who lived prior to the incarnation of Yeshua(Jesus). However, Hebrews 11 and the letter to the Romans tell us that Avraham was counted as righteous before Moshe chronicled the commandments of Adonai and the sign(s) of the covenant was(were) instituted.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 2:12:13 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
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Yes, or those rebellious, adultryous, lying, chosen ones would have been consumed in the early pages of Exodus.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 2:55:44 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3608
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From: OKLAHOMA
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As David said,
"His MERCY endures forever!!!!!!!!"
I voted "YES."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 3:06:43 PM
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EStan
Posts: 451
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YES. Interestingly, I'm currently reading "What's So Amazing About Grace?" by Philip Yancey. How amazing it truly is!
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Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 4:53:44 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1256
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: online
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Looking forward(old), after Pentecost(new) is as secure as when we see His Face in His Glory.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 5:02:14 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Dear saint, I voted yes as well, but I also understand that Abraham's did not just trust God mentally for the promise, but he showed it daily by keeping torah. The torah has always manifested grace, and grace manifest torah. We are going through Romans on another thread. You should join us. I think you have if I recall properly.
Where they waiting on the Messiah, to complete their salvation? What was the promise God gave Eve? What was the promise God gave Abraham? What was the promise that God gave Israel?
How would He redeem mankind? He already had redeemed mankind.
So why was Adam, Abel, Seth, Abraham, Noah, and Isaac obedient to God? How did they show that they believed the promise?
If "Grace" has always been avaliable, then why can't the "Torah" be avaliable now. The mystery is that they have always worked together even beyond the knowledge of mankind. Why would they stop working together today. For even the sacrifice of the Messiah was before the foundation of the world working on mankind's part for redemption before creation. Re 13:8 -All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 5:08:30 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Yes, or those rebellious, adultryous, lying, chosen ones would have been consumed in the early pages of Exodus.
Thanks
RC
Or eliminated at the Garden!
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 6:47:36 PM
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jbow
Posts: 769
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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Absolutely... without grace Adam would have died the day he ate of "that tree".
But Adam did not die in the day he ate of that fruit. God gave grace. He killed an animal to make skins to cover their nakedness. He began right there teaching man this lesson: "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin". What do you want to bet that animal was a lamb?
J
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"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 8:29:13 PM
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prophet
Posts: 572
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YES!!!!
Ge 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ex 33:12
And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
Shalom
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 9:02:05 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2387
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
Looking forward(old), after Pentecost(new) is as secure as when we see His Face in His Glory.
Yes, Amen! wonder where vote no came from ?
Salvation always was and always will be By Grace thru faith. No other way exist..If there was an alternative route Jews not only would be the first ones to figure it out, but we would also have the market of "How To do it" books already cornered!
Why would I be shvitzing on my intership right now, as legal slave? I would own a little Salvation Shop, working on a pre-labor Day sale. 
quote:
If "Grace" has always been avaliable, then why can't the "Torah" be avaliable now.
It is widely available, in every Bible, first 5 books.
Are you getting somewhere with this , Mani brother?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/6/2008 10:10:33 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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see my sig
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/7/2008 2:15:56 AM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
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I also understand that Abraham's did not just trust God mentally for the promise, but he showed it daily by keeping torah. The torah has always manifested grace, and grace manifest torah.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/7/2008 7:51:03 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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I voted yes, but I'm not so sure its that grace was always available so much as its that God has always been a gracious God. I dunno, though. Maybe its the same thing.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/7/2008 11:05:43 AM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I voted yes, but I'm not so sure its that grace was always available so much as its that God has always been a gracious God. I dunno, though. Maybe its the same thing.
You are correct. God is what He does. God is love, He does not choose to love, He can do nothing but love, because it is who He is. God is Grace.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable - 8/8/2008 11:46:19 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
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I agree that the animal sacrifices are needed, but the living sacrifices of the believer are and always have been required. The animal sacrifices were meant to show believer what Jesus would fulfill and what believers would be called to immulate.
Do you know how to be a spiritual drink offering. Paul did and he sacrificed himself as such. The drink offering was apart of the meal offering. Paul was immulating it towards others. So, no the sacrifices have not stopped, the understanding and application of them should be manifested in our lives. This was always the case since the offerings of Cain and Abel. They revealed what was in them as they should do now. The animal was a shadow of the giver. Now we are to be spiritual priest that offer up burnt offerings, meal offerings, and peace offerings in our spirit by the Spirit. So yes the animal sacrifices have ended.
Do you understand the drink offering? Do you give yourself as a drink offering? You would have to understand it in order to do it. You cannot just say I know about it. You have to know what the Spirit says regarding its spiritual application. We are told to be a living. It is by spiritual torah (understanding and applying the animal sacrifices in our life)
Php 2:17 -Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.
2Ti 4:6 - For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. The body of Christ is missing so much by throwing out the baby with the bath water. By the way the pig is not good to eat, not because of Torah, but health reasons. All the torah is written on our heart and it is to be applied differently. Not all of it pertains to everybody in equal measure. The Torah has always been taught by God and lived by men in God's grace.
Ge 26:5 - because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Ge 6:8 -But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ge 6:9 -This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a just and righteous man, blameless in his [evil] generation; Noah walked [in habitual fellowship] with God.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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