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When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 1:17:33 AM
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Lea_3
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An argument I've been hearing lately, to no surprise is,
"Where does the Bible explicitly condemn premarital sex?" Apparently, when provided with a long list of verses, it doesn't seem to do any good.
Same thing with, where in the Bible does it explicitly condemn abortion, drunkenness, drug use, dating more than one person at a time, etc.
I guess my main question here is, does the Bible have to always spell things out for us to plainly see that some things are immoral?
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 9:18:41 AM
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rcjames
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This question comes up every so often. Scripture is plain about sexual immorality, when sex is acceptable (between man and wife), and the penalty for sexual morality;
(Gal 5:19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(Gal 5:20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(Gal 5:21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Please note the other sins that are listed with fornication; that should show the seriousness of this sin.
Folks that deny what Scripture says in this area are just trying to justify the sin of premarital sex.
The Apostle John says something about this also;
(Rev 21:7) All who win the victory will be given these blessings. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
(Rev 21:8) But I will tell you what will happen to cowards and to everyone who is unfaithful or dirty-minded or who murders or is sexually immoral or uses witchcraft or worships idols or tells lies. They will be thrown into that lake of fire and burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Jesus said that folks reject the truth (light) for one reason and he states it here;
(Joh 3:19) The light has come into the world, and people who do evil things are judged guilty because they love the dark more than the light.
Now folks that have an itch that they want to scratch will ignore the truth for their intentions and deeds are evil.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 12:02:41 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
It depends on the topic, and the verses people are trying to use to back them. I see often that someone has verses, but they are attempting to make the verses say something that's not there. Then if you disagree, you are bound to hell. 
Ah yes, the church that "just teaches the Bible". Which really means, "We teach our interpretation of the Bible, and if you disagree with our interpretation, then are disagreeing with God Himself."
I agree with Maggie that some things fall under general principles, like acting kindly. Other things are up for debate, like women's hair length. And I don't believe it is going against God to incorporate the times and circumstances a book of the Bible was written in, when evaluating what God has to say to today and what the overall principle should be.
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 12:06:09 PM
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Elena1030
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If a person does not deem the Bible to be authoritative on how to live life, then he/she is more likely to skew interpretations to fit his/her thinking and then justify his/her thoughts, speech, and actions. So of course you're going to get the "Well, the Bible doesn't SAY that anywhere" response from the person.
Definitely it is concerning that people who claim to be Christ-followers are saying that their "lifestyle choices" (premarital sex and other sexual sins) are OK and are excused. I think there's a deeper issue with such folks ---> lack of true discipleship, either on their own (their own reading, studying, meditating on the Word) or with others (mentoring, discipling, group Bible study, accountability partners, etc.) or both.
Lea,
I've read some of your other threads in which you have mentioned this issue, hence my following comments.
Have these people made their remarks about premarital sex, in front of church leaders (like Sunday School or Bible study teachers, lay leaders, church staff, etc.)? Or do these conversations take place when not in the hearing of leaders?
In your church, perhaps the teachers and leaders could take the opportunity to teach and preach on the principles presented in the Bible --- good, deep explication of the Word --- so that there is NO mistaking what the Word says, why it says what it says, and how we are to live our lives.
Also... the people with whom you are conversing likely have a rather selfish slant on what love really is. To them, love is about pleasurable feelings and what *I* want and getting what I want RIGHT NOW. But you and I and our fellow posters here know that truly godly love isn't self-seeking and it protects and it cherishes and it waits till the time is right (ahem, marriage). I wonder if they heard teaching and preaching on what love is and what it does (and what it doesn't do) -- all about agape -- would their minds be changed?
Really, the work is the Holy Spirit's. Your part is to keep speaking and defending and trying to explain the truth, and to do so lovingly yet firmly. But you cannot make these persons' minds change. That is the Holy Spirit's job. You can pray, and we can pray with you for them. And that is all that we can do. It's still a lot, though!!! Prayer is powerful. And so is truth-speaking.
Keep defending the faith, my sister!!  
< Message edited by Elena1030 -- 11/4/2009 12:16:39 PM >
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 12:51:13 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
Really, the work is the Holy Spirit's
So true. I can't rememeber the referance, but there's a verse that talks about those who don't have the Spirit of God can't understand the things of God. I would pray that God opens their heart to Him.
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"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 1:14:41 PM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
Really, the work is the Holy Spirit's
So true. I can't rememeber the referance, but there's a verse that talks about those who don't have the Spirit of God can't understand the things of God. I would pray that God opens their heart to Him.
And that's probably what is the most distressing to Lea. It's not the unbelievers and the not-yet-in-the-Kingdom seekers that befuddle her (from what I've read in other threads), but the others who claim to be Christians.
But with Christians....
It's one thing to admit one's mistakes of the past or to admit to struggling to do what's right. And another thing to try to claim that one's behavior is perfectly OK b/c the Bible doesn't explicitly speak against it, when clearly the principles are there.
It makes one wonder if the person is (persons are) truly saved. Or at least, consider that they are backsliding.
OR they may truly not know that the Bible does speak to the issue --- if they have not dug into those particular verses and chapters for themselves and really put themselves under its teaching and under the authority of the Holy Spirit.
It's probably not a simple issue... except that sin is still holding sway in their lives, of course. But why they are letting it be so -- that's probably more complicated. Esp. since we're not talking about one isolated case but about several people (as Lea has said elsewhere) ... and maybe even opinions that are pervasive in some supposedly Christian groups.
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 1:59:11 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
Really, the work is the Holy Spirit's
So true. I can't rememeber the referance, but there's a verse that talks about those who don't have the Spirit of God can't understand the things of God. I would pray that God opens their heart to Him.
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
-1 Corinthians 2:14-15
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 2:24:35 PM
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solo_soprano23
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
It depends on the topic, and the verses people are trying to use to back them. I see often that someone has verses, but they are attempting to make the verses say something that's not there. Then if you disagree, you are bound to hell.
Ah yes, the church that "just teaches the Bible". Which really means, "We teach our interpretation of the Bible, and if you disagree with our interpretation, then are disagreeing with God Himself."
I agree with Maggie that some things fall under general principles, like acting kindly. Other things are up for debate, like women's hair length. And I don't believe it is going against God to incorporate the times and circumstances a book of the Bible was written in, when evaluating what God has to say to today and what the overall principle should be.
If you think about it, if Christians could agree on what's Biblically correct or correct by God, then we'd not have these denominations. I'm a Southern Baptist, but I don't think the Methodists and Lutherans aren't Christians and I wouldn't say such. We all read the same Bible, but come to different conclusions. We tend to want to read it, interpret it, declare that we or our church/denomination is the right one, and condemn those who interpret differently.
Have you seen Christians read the same Biblical passages, and one comes to the conclusion that drinking in moderation isn't a sin, but the other Christian proclaimes that the other must be trying to justify their sinful drinking because it's so very "explicitly" explained that drinking is a sin? There are MANY issues that are like that, and we won't know who's right until we meet our Maker.
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/4/2009 11:38:57 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
An argument I've been hearing lately, to no surprise is,
"Where does the Bible explicitly condemn premarital sex?" Apparently, when provided with a long list of verses, it doesn't seem to do any good.
Same thing with, where in the Bible does it explicitly condemn abortion, drunkenness, drug use, dating more than one person at a time, etc.
I guess my main question here is, does the Bible have to always spell things out for us to plainly see that some things are immoral?
What makes us see anything that is spiritual, Lea? In order to see, hear and understand spiritual things, one must be born from above. You can learn about God by reading and studying God's word but that is not the same as knowing God. Spiritual truths are revealed, imparted to us directly by God.
And just being born again does not mean that you immediately know and understand God. But at least then you are on the knowing path. And if you pursue a relationship with Him, that knowledge will grow and you will know Him more and more.
And as that knowledge grows, you will find yourself living in ways consistent with His ways rather than your own ways or the ways of the world.
The book of Colossians might be a good book for you to read as you desire to understand this more. Many turn to legalism (do this/don't do this) rather than to relationship which is a moment by moment leading and relating to God through the Holy Spirit.
The answer is to know and love Jesus and grow in relationship with Him. And to encourage others to do the same. He will correct the wrongs and get us on His path if we have ears to hear. Pray for those who seem to not know Him or His ways. That's a most wonderful way you can 'help' them.  LL
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/5/2009 1:02:30 AM
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Lea_3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
And that's probably what is the most distressing to Lea. It's not the unbelievers and the not-yet-in-the-Kingdom seekers that befuddle her (from what I've read in other threads), but the others who claim to be Christians.
That's exactly my main frustration. I honestly question at times, is this worth it? Is this worth it at the expense of having a life that I am giving up, which could be more fun, more social, more experienced?
It's one thing to be a Christian who realized that they made mistakes and made amends. I have met many people for instance, who used to be alcoholics and have been sober for years. I've met people who used to do drugs and have been clean for years. I've met people who have been promiscuous and have been celibate for years and wish to remain so until marriage. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the people who say "eh, I already did whateverandso, and since I've already done it, why does it matter."
As a Christian convert, I feel that this hurts my faith because when I try to witness to non-believers, they see those same examples and say "why should I be Christian when Christians are plagued by hypocrisy?" I mean for goodness sakes, I've met more MUSLIMS who believe Mary was a virgin than Christians! It is so difficult to be taken seriously as a convert when my cradle Christian peers don't make a true, genuine effort to follow a faith-filled path.
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/8/2009 8:50:43 AM
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willfs
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
If a person does not deem the Bible to be authoritative on how to live life, then he/she is more likely to skew interpretations to fit his/her thinking and then justify his/her thoughts, speech, and actions.
Elena, this isn't to knock anything you have said. As always, you added some extremely insightful stuff to the query in this thread. I think you have a good point with the above as well. I only want to say that in highschool, I read my Bible some and looked up to it as authoritative. However, I recall having a glimmer of hope when I never was able to find anything telling me directly that I couldn't have sex before marriage. My point is that even those who think the Bible to be directly from God, can distort it to their own ends.
I think atleast part of the problem comes when people think of the Bible like a handbook. The Bible is a story book. Even the direct instruction found in the Bible has a back story behind it and can't always be directly applied to us (though a surprising amount can). However, the principles behind the teachings can. When I really started looking into what was going on in the Jewish culture during Jesus's life and Paul's life the gospels and Paul's letters came more alive when I was able to see why they taught certain things that I had never gotten before.
The culture of those in the first century was different form ours when it came to sex. The Jews staunchly forbid sex outside of marriage, for good reason, while many of the other cultures allowed it outside marriage and just about everywhere else. New Testament teachers didn't feel the need to tell the Jews to wait for marraige. And when speaking to Pagan cultures they saw a need to focus on condemning the ronchy stuff they participated in.
However, Paul states in 1 Corinthians 6:16 that when you have sex with a prostitute you are uniting yourself with them. He knew that a lot, if not all of, of the fornication at the time was through prostitution. Prostitution was legal. When you legalize it like they had it legal then guys jump all over that. So pull the principle out of there. He could also say that he who has sex with any woman unites himself with that woman. Sex is giving your body to someone to a point where you unite with them. This sounds exactly like marriage. In light of this insight, sex only makes sense in marriage.
This is just one of many verses that give such principles.
< Message edited by willfs -- 11/8/2009 8:59:45 AM >
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/8/2009 10:10:18 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
I'm referring to the people who say "eh, I already did whateverandso, and since I've already done it, why does it matter."
Then that presents a great opportunity to present the Grace, forgiveness, and love that comes through accepting Christ as Savior, and following the precepts of Scripture.
If the person who says such claims to be a Chrisitian; then they are in dire need of teaching on the Grace and forgiveness of God, then refered to !! Cor 13:5.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 10:50:31 AM
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KaptZ
Posts: 172
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quote:
Ah yes, the church that "just teaches the Bible". Which really means, "We teach our interpretation of the Bible, and if you disagree with our interpretation, then are disagreeing with God Himself."
I agree with Maggie that some things fall under general principles, like acting kindly. Other things are up for debate, like women's hair length. And I don't believe it is going against God to incorporate the times and circumstances a book of the Bible was written in, when evaluating what God has to say to today and what the overall principle should be.
Or even the greater heretical possibility that maybe the Bible was written by men, men inspired by God, but men nonetheless and men are nothing if not fallable.
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 12:18:47 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
quote:
Ah yes, the church that "just teaches the Bible". Which really means, "We teach our interpretation of the Bible, and if you disagree with our interpretation, then are disagreeing with God Himself."
I agree with Maggie that some things fall under general principles, like acting kindly. Other things are up for debate, like women's hair length. And I don't believe it is going against God to incorporate the times and circumstances a book of the Bible was written in, when evaluating what God has to say to today and what the overall principle should be.
Or even the greater heretical possibility that maybe the Bible was written by men, men inspired by God, but men nonetheless and men are nothing if not fallible.
Are you supporting such a claim or challenging it?
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 1:03:46 PM
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Lea_3
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I'm not talking about fallibility-- I'm talking about how many people, namely Christians, make arguments like "abortion isn't explicitly stated in the Bible, so it's okay to have one" or "the word 'premarital sex' isn't in the Bible, so it's okay", or the best argument of them all "it's all on how you interpret it."
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 1:39:22 PM
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KaptZ
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double post. ignore.
< Message edited by KaptZ -- 11/9/2009 2:19:14 PM >
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 2:12:30 PM
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KaptZ
Posts: 172
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
Or even the greater heretical possibility that maybe the Bible was written by men, men inspired by God, but men nonetheless and men are nothing if not fallible.
Are you supporting such a claim or challenging it?
Such a notion does open a 'spiritual can of worms' doesn't it?
Since I respect direct questions I will give you my direct answer. Yes, I believe(have always believed) that the Bible was written by men.
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 2:29:27 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Yes, I believe(have always believed) that the Bible was written by men.
Do you believe that means Scripture is fallible?
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-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 2:30:26 PM
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KaptZ
Posts: 172
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
I'm not talking about fallibility-- I'm talking about how many people, namely Christians, make arguments like "abortion isn't explicitly stated in the Bible, so it's okay to have one" or "the word 'premarital sex' isn't in the Bible, so it's okay", or the best argument of them all "it's all on how you interpret it."
It really is all on how you interpret it. Regarding one's faith can there be a more enlightened statement? We'll each answer to God for our own interpretations, but there is no need to answer to anyone else. I would say if we are intimidated by this idea perhaps the real problem is we doubt our own interpretation. Otherwise, why would it matter if others believe different than us?
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 2:33:46 PM
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KaptZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Do you believe that means Scripture is fallible?
Yes. Doesn't mean I don't believe it. It just means I keep a open mind.
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 2:40:21 PM
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solo_soprano23
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
I'm not talking about fallibility-- I'm talking about how many people, namely Christians, make arguments like "abortion isn't explicitly stated in the Bible, so it's okay to have one" or "the word 'premarital sex' isn't in the Bible, so it's okay", or the best argument of them all "it's all on how you interpret it."
It really is all on how you interpret it. Regarding one's faith can there be a more enlightened statement? We'll each answer to God for our own interpretations, but there is no need to answer to anyone else. I would say if we are intimidated by this idea perhaps the real problem is we doubt our own interpretation. Otherwise, why would it matter if others believe different than us?
Exactly. Just like I said about drinking... Christians and churches use the same verses to both "prove" and "disprove" how they are right and the other "side" is wrong. In verses where Jesus turned water into wine, that was "grape juice," but in verses saying not to be a drunkard, that was "real" wine. Sometimes it really is about how you interpret Scripture, and MANY follow the church's interpretation, not knowing how the church's views have changed so much...
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 2:41:44 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Yes. Doesn't mean I don't believe it. It just means I keep a open mind.
How do you decide what parts are true and what parts are false?
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-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: When the Bible is not explicit about Morality - 11/9/2009 3:46:57 PM
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Lea_3
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Wow...if it's all on how you interpret the Bible, then how do we even have morals? I guess I was right in my previous belief that Christianity has no set morals or principles. I'm just glad Jesus wasn't a wishy-wash.
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If the house rule is "Treat each other kindly", and I give a specific example like "Don't hit your brother", he knows he's not going to get a pass for stabbing his brother with a pencil because I didn't say "Rule #1407: Do not stab siblings with pencils". 
