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Where's Joseph? - 7/22/2008 2:59:40 PM
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PromiseLander
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I've often heard Biblical teachers remark that the earthly male father figure of Jesus died at some point in time while Jesus grew up... I have never heard them quote references... I haven't seen it in Scripture either. Where are they getting this? Did Joseph die during the life of Jesus? Why do you suppose that nothing was said about it in the Biblical texts?
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/22/2008 5:24:18 PM
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Wild-Rose
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When Jesus died on the cross, His mother was there. If his father had been alive surely he would have been there too. So it is assumed that Joseph was dead already. There is no Biblical reference to his death, just common sense.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/22/2008 9:10:56 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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I think honestly Joseph wasn't mentioned in the life of christ because he wasn't a factor in it. This gives rise to the assumption that Joseph was died... but nobody knows for sure. We need to remember, the only time Mary is mentioned is either because she is raising Jesus, intruding on his "altar calls", or watching Him die. So I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/22/2008 9:57:41 PM
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Boats
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True, there aren't any verses that directly mention Joesph dieing.
(or even being dead)
If Joesph had died Jesus (being the eldest) would been responsible for
the family until the next son come of age.
Which maybe a factor in him starting his ministry at about 30.
quote:
Matthew 13
55. Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56. And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Without a doubt if Joesph were alive, he would have been mentioned here.
quote:
John 19
26. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27. Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Here is Jesus taking care of his Mother. If Joesph were alive, this would not have been necessary.
Even with no scripture, it is safe to say that Joesph had died.
When and how is a big guess
Boats
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/23/2008 8:11:36 AM
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Lurker
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Joseph was already quite old and a widower when he married Mary. He likely passed away some time before Jesus started His ministry
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/23/2008 8:58:48 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Joseph was already quite old and a widower when he married Mary. He likely passed away some time before Jesus started His ministry
There is no scripture to support the idea that Joseph was old, young or any specific age when he married Mary, nor that he was a widower.
Those are speculations that are held primarily by those who a doctrinal interest wish in promoting the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary, and that James, Joseph, Simon and Judas were Joseph's sons from a previous marriage not also sons of Mary.
"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? (Matthew 13:55)
Since this controversy is supported by doctrine rather than scripture and primarily the doctrines of a certain church, I doubt that if the discussion remains long on this facet the moderators will allow it.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/23/2008 9:31:35 AM
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Lurker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Joseph was already quite old and a widower when he married Mary. He likely passed away some time before Jesus started His ministry
There is no scripture to support the idea that Joseph was old, young or any specific age when he married Mary, nor that he was a widower.
Those are speculations that are held primarily by those who a doctrinal interest wish in promoting the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary, and that James, Joseph, Simon and Judas were Joseph's sons from a previous marriage not also sons of Mary.
"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? (Matthew 13:55)
Since this controversy is supported by doctrine rather than scripture and primarily the doctrines of a certain church, I doubt that if the discussion remains long on this facet the moderators will allow it.
Tim
It's actually supported not just by Tradition, but by scripture. Particularly of interest is the attitude of the brothers towards Jesus. Check out John 7:3–4, where His brothers offer him some practical advice. For the younger brothers to do such a thing would be unheard of in that culture. Younger siblings don't offer advice, they ask for advice instead. In the gospel of Mark, we see that they went to seize Him thinking that "he is beside himself". Only older siblings would dream of doing that. Younger brothers simply wouldn't have the authority. And you'll note that even though His "brothers" were still alive at the time of the crucifixion, Jesus entrusted Mary to John(John 19:26–27). Why would He do that if there were other siblings? The very fact that this was done blows away the idea that James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude were the children of Mary. The children of Joseph likely, but certainly not Mary. Indeed, there's other bits of evidence as well. Note how Our Lord is referred to as "THE son of Mary" in Mark 6:3. If Mary had other sons, then the people would have referred to Him as "A son of Mary." Instead they refer to Him in a way that shows there was only a single son of Mary.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/23/2008 11:48:06 AM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
It's actually supported not just by Tradition, but by scripture. Particularly of interest is the attitude of the brothers towards Jesus. Check out John 7:3–4, where His brothers offer him some practical advice. For the younger brothers to do such a thing would be unheard of in that culture. Younger siblings don't offer advice, they ask for advice instead.
Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. "For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world." For not even His brothers were believing in Him. (John 7:2-5)
If you include verse 5 to put it in context, they weren't offering practical advice they were offering but more probably derision.
They did not truly believe on the Lord Jesus. They told Him that He should go to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and perform some of His miracles there so that His disciples might see what He was doing. The disciples spoken of here were probably not the twelve, but rather those who professed to be followers of the Lord Jesus in Judea.
quote:
In the gospel of Mark, we see that they went to seize Him thinking that "he is beside himself". Only older siblings would dream of doing that. Younger brothers simply wouldn't have the authority.
His Mother and brothers together would have had sufficient authority to do so, the authority of the eldest son was not absolute.
quote:
And you'll note that even though His "brothers" were still alive at the time of the crucifixion, Jesus entrusted Mary to John(John 19:26–27). Why would He do that if there were other siblings? The very fact that this was done blows away the idea that James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude were the children of Mary. The children of Joseph likely, but certainly not Mary.
When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He *said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then He *said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household. (John 19:26-27)
And why wouldn't He chose to ask His closest follower and friend, someone for whom He had great love as affection to take care of His mother? There was nothing in the culture to prevent Jesus from assigning the care of His mother to someone even out side of the family whom He trusted to care for her. It serves as proof that Joseph was dead, but not that Mary was not the mother of the other members of Jesus household.
quote:
Indeed, there's other bits of evidence as well. Note how Our Lord is referred to as "THE son of Mary" in Mark 6:3. If Mary had other sons, then the people would have referred to Him as "A son of Mary." Instead they refer to Him in a way that shows there was only a single son of Mary.
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. (Mark 6:3)
Referring to Jesus as the son of Mary was calling His legitimacy into question, not stating that He was the only son of Mary. In that culture you were the son of your father, to be called the son (or daughter) of a woman was a way of saying that no one knew who your father was.
Even after the child's father was long dead they would be referred to as the son (or daughter) of their father....never solely as son or daughter of their mother unless their father was unknown. Notice His sisters didn't rate a mention by name, but His brothers did. It was a male dominated culture, linage was traced by paternal, not maternal lines.
So it seems your proof texts don't quite meet the test, there is an equally or even more likely way to see them that doesn't support your position at all. Of course none of this is new to you or anyone else who has studied this.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/23/2008 7:40:26 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please keep this thread on the subject of Joseph. If you'd like to further discuss whether Mary had had any more children, please do so in THIS THREAD.
Thank you!
Tricia
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/25/2008 12:06:49 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 843
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I've often heard Biblical teachers remark that the earthly male father figure of Jesus died at some point in time while Jesus grew up... I have never heard them quote references... I haven't seen it in Scripture either. Where are they getting this? Did Joseph die during the life of Jesus? Why do you suppose that nothing was said about it in the Biblical texts?
because we didn't need to know it. It has no bearing on the story of salvation.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 7/29/2008 10:19:17 AM
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Row1
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I think Luke 2:41-52, 12-year-old Jesus wandering away from his parents and learning at the temple, is the final appearance of Joseph. I am not sure of the final mention of Joseph.
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 8/7/2008 1:26:44 AM
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Okami
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I remember one of the discussions on this as well implying that the gold the magi brought to Jesus was spent not only on daily things, but on Joseph's grave and funeral costs. Not supported by scripture, just tradition and speculation.
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 8/14/2008 8:50:49 AM
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Fledgling
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I guess this is probably just a coincidence but a man named Joseph purchased and buried Jesus body from Pilate.
Mathew 27
57.Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus.
58.This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him.
59.When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60.and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed.
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 8/14/2008 9:08:00 AM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
I guess this is probably just a coincidence but a man named Joseph purchased and buried Jesus body from Pilate.
Mathew 27
57.Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus.
58.This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him.
59.When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60.and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed.
The Joseph in the above verses was not the same person. He was a rich councilman from Arimathea. He was seeking the kingdom of God, but you have to realize that he did not show his face until after Jesus was dead. Read John 19:38, and you will see that he was secretly a disciple. He hid his faith. The acts after the death of Christ were probably driven by remorse/shame/repentance for his prior behavior.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 8/14/2008 12:17:09 PM
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DougHorton
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
The acts after the death of Christ were probably driven by remorse/shame/repentance for his prior behavior.
Wow. You are reading a lot into Joseph's motivation, considering this was the very time the disciples were hiding, I think it was a pretty good testimony that he came forward. His secret faith came out a lot sooner than most other peoples'.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where's Joseph? - 8/14/2008 1:08:44 PM
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DougHorton
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From: Georgia
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Regardless, as you pointed out, this was a totally different man.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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