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Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 1:08:54 PM
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Grey_1
Posts: 38
Joined: 2/10/2009
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Hi all,
I'd like to explain my reasons for posting this, and stress that I am not intending to offend, to antagonize or cause any to stumble. Please remember this if you get irritated with me.
I discuss God and the things of God quite often with non-believers, mostly atheists. It's painful at times.
Among some of the most common arguments I hear are the fact that many Christians OFTEN mistreat and/or antagonize each other over differences of opinion/doctrine etc, and my experience is that they are correct. We do. I myself walked away from the church for a number of years before my Savior, My Lord and wonderful counselor, Jesus, stretched His hand out to me, called me back, yet I still have some major problems trusting other Christians.
In here, if any are interested in participating, my goal is to hear some rock solid reasoning. Some of you are very learned, and from what I can tell, very in tune with the Spirit of Jesus as He intended. Others seem only too willing to throw down, almost harshly, with a brother or sister you disagree with, to the detriment of "Younger in the Lord" readers, as in one post I just read before posting this, a God fearing, Jesus Loving but disillusioned lady. If she sees this she will know I'm speaking of her. 
So I plan to question some replies that are very much standard and taken for granted within the community. Again, not looking to antagonize, just to get some real answers that, as Ravi Zacharias might say "Make you think..."
God Bless you Brothers and Sisters, let's see who is interested....
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 2:03:35 PM
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mollypear
Posts: 238
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I'm interested...what do you want to ask?
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 2:12:52 PM
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heremainsfaithful
Posts: 190
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From: Alabama
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I'm interested too. I have learned over the years that a lot of what I took for granted simply isn't in the Bible or has been taken out of context. This has been very eye-opening for me. I would love to look honestly at this question.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 2:47:19 PM
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SuspenseWriter
Posts: 460
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
I'm interested too. I have learned over the years that a lot of what I took for granted simply isn't in the Bible or has been taken out of context. This has been very eye-opening for me. I would love to look honestly at this question.
Me too. But know this before you start, Grey, that threads like these usually spiral downward fairly quickly. Maybe this one won't, but all it'll take is one heresy hunter with an agenda to knock this thing completely off its pins. Here's hoping it doesn't!
_____________________________
John Robinson
suspend your disbelief
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/blog.htm
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 3:27:17 PM
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Grey_1
Posts: 38
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
I'm interested too. I have learned over the years that a lot of what I took for granted simply isn't in the Bible or has been taken out of context. This has been very eye-opening for me. I would love to look honestly at this question.
Me too. But know this before you start, Grey, that threads like these usually spiral downward fairly quickly. Maybe this one won't, but all it'll take is one heresy hunter with an agenda to knock this thing completely off its pins. Here's hoping it doesn't!
LoL, I do hear you. I've frequented a few forums and seen how quickly that can happen. I'm hoping it doesn't here.
My question is exactly what's phrased in the title, but with the caveat that I am asking folks to defend their faith. One problem here is the anonymity of the internet. It's been my experience that seeing a Christian life is as important as hearing the testimony.
I'm often challenged to "Prove" my faith and my God. LoL, easy right? j/k
God literally saved my sanity and by association, my life in the blink of an eye, not a minute after I finished telling Him I hated Him. It was such an incredibly powerful experience that came from outside myself. I know this, I met God.
I know others who simply accepted Jesus with a simple quiet decision, and have come to a closer walk with Him than I.
Holding this testimony up to an atheist who has seen the obvious (and not so obvious) charlatans, and true believers who are so cold towards others, is a difficult proposition, that I believe I fail at more often than not.
quote:
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
How can a Christian answer this with anything resembling certainty? One man I was in a conversation with, "devout" very intelligent atheist, very respectful also I might add, had just finished hearing another Christian berate someone like anyone of the world would.
How can I approach this?
There's much more I would like to delve into, but I am honestly curious, and stumped, how to answer. The men I chat with the most are a bit too sharp to accept anything even resembling trite, however true it may be e.g." We are works in progress" etc.
Thanks for the replies!
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 3:47:03 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
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If you are looking for "Rock Solid" reasons that folks do not want to become a Christian; plese do not believe their hyperbole and bull pucky, look to Scripture.
Jesus explains very simply and plainly why folks reject Him (The Light) here;
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Above is the whole truth of the Gospel and the next verse explains the whole truth of why some reject the Gospel;
(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(Joh 3:20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
(Joh 3:21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Sad to say but some folks just love their evil more than they love the truth of Jesus. It has nothing to do with folks who call themselves Christians who are hypocrits, or are argumentative, or seem to be comdemning.
It has everything to do with the evilness that folks love and want to wallow in, instead of accepting Christ; repenting, and living a life of righteousness.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 4:21:06 PM
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Grey_1
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Hi rcjames - Your words are so true regarding love of sin, yet I loved sin, hated God passionately, had a good solid list of reasons why I didn't need Him or want Him, and yet a Christian reached me. I'm seeking to understand how the Lord reached me through some very imperfect people, that hopefully one day I may be able to reach more like I was.
The one aspect that the first Christian who seriously witnessed to me, and the second who seriously brought the message of Jesus to me, is that they cared in a way no others had been able to convey. They were also quite bold... 
I admired, and to this day am frankly blown away by how they cared. I wasn't the most pleasant person to be around, and got rather..eh...nasty..when Christ was mentioned.
I want what they had through the Lord.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 6:57:32 PM
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heremainsfaithful
Posts: 190
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From: Alabama
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Wow, it didn't take long, did it. At the risk of spouting more of my bull pockey
I agree that people love their sin, and that their minds are darkened, and that their deeds are evil.
Some of the reasons I believe what I believe include: IITim. 3:16, Psa. 119:89
The reason I am a Christian is: Rom. 5:8, I John 5:11-13, I John 4:10, Eph. 2:8, 9 and others
I feel blessed because: II Cor. 5:17, II Tim. 2:13, Phil 4:6, 7, 13, 19, Eph 2:10
Of course, calling out a perfect stranger and fellow believer for being full of bull pockey sort of proves my point about how we treat each other, but still...
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 7:41:51 PM
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Grey_1
Posts: 38
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
That's why I find this so compelling, because your friend is right. When a Christian bashes another Christian, it really is worse than when someone "in the world" does it because we are supposed to know better, to DO better. I think you should keep that verse above handy, so when this thread does start toward the legalistic believer-bashing thing, you can quote it.
I would love to hear about your blink of an eye experience, by the way. It's not fair to tease somebody with a testimony like that and not give the whole thing! 
Ah, I saw rcjames' post and missed yours, sorry! Sorry about the testimony thing too, doh!
I do keep that verse and Joh 14: 9
quote:
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
This one is particularly useful to me as my name is Philip , makes it tough to dodge!
A very dear friend of mine made the statement when we first met that the bible was not the final word among believers. Well, I took exception to that and argued until he asked me which NT the original apostles used. Ok, that slowed me a bit, because I knew that when I said "They walked with Jesus" he would say "Don't you?" I got it, what he wanted to impart.
The word is, as we know, full of wisdom, treasures and instruction, God's will for His own etc etc. No denying that, but we walk with him, the word minus Jesus is...what?
So...If I truly walk with Jesus, would I treat people differently just because I can't see Him?
Anyway, to a shortened version of my testimony.
I began drinking around the age of 5-6. We had alcohol always, easy to get too, and some family members thought it wouldn't hurt to give me some. They never knew I would be the addictive type. I know I used a good deal, but to be honest I don't remember much except a new, very drunken and violent step-father, much inappropriate activities between adults and myself, my mother fighting hard to protect, the rest is a bit of a blur.
I was approached many times over the years by Christians who I promptly sent packing, sometimes harshly as I knew this god, small, mean and hateful as hell. Then I met Norm - his real name and Norm, if by chance you read this, I love you brother and thank you.
Norm was a devout Christian with a bit of a drinking problem himself, but he did something I never, ever saw any holy roller do. Another Christian we worked with gave a sever attitude towards anyone who was not saved, but dared to look at his bible. Norm got after him, harshly, he took the side of the sinner - never saw that before, and never forgot it.
Fast forward to 1986 and a man who said God got him off the sauce. By now any mention of God around me was to invite severe anger, He was anathema to me. But I was estranged from any family, severely underweight, bleeding on occasion from places that don't need to be mentioned, had been told i would most likely go insane or die. I was only 27 years old. I was terrified to leave my apartment because "They" would see me. Some here will understand that fully. After a horrible night, I knelt and told God, and I remember this word for word "I hate you, and I know you hate me, but he said you might help.
Well, God hit me about a nanosecond later, hard. there was a powerful (How inadequate that word is) sense of something moving through me, and light inside of me. It lasted maybe 10 seconds and felt like forever, and when it stopped I felt clean. I never knew 'clean' before, ever. I never even had the urge to drink, or thought, again.
I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior a short time later - Met the one who saved me that first night...just Awesome, He is.
There's so much left out here, but all of it points towards Our Lord shoeing this stubborn child how Loving and faithful, and Just, He is.
Awesome God indeed!
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 7:55:56 PM
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heremainsfaithful
Posts: 190
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From: Alabama
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Wow. When I read what you prayed, I immediately thought of Jesus' story about the two people praying. How one pontificated, thanking God he wasn't like that sinner over there. Then there was the "sinner" who was beating his breast, asking God to have mercy on him. What we need is less of the former and more of the latter.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/16/2009 10:35:44 PM
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Robin-again
Posts: 246
Joined: 8/2/2009
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God is like the wind, the breeze, the air.
You feel it but you don't see it.
Faith... you must believe and you must have faith...in God.
Only through Jesus will you be able to meet GOD.
Your Maker.
I have been in an airplane and was soooo far above the clouds that the clouds gave the impression that the Earth does not exist.
and I KNEW IT DID...
It's like a child covering her/his eyes with their little hands and believing you can't see her/him. and you do. You're looking right at 'em.
I was saved 6 months ago and all this Spiritual way of life is new to me.
I have felt myself change, grow, and doing things to serve the Lord daily.
I am a different person since I've asked God to help me.
I feel calmer inside and happier knowing I'll never be alone again.
Jesus is now my best friend.
Bob, my other Best friend I was married to for 30 years, had passed away 3½ yrs ago.
I feel Bob is on one shoulder and Jesus is on the other.
I'm Happy.
_____________________________
.
If we don't feel close to Him we are the ones that walked away. He is still right beside us.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/17/2009 2:03:20 AM
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Peloton
Posts: 200
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As a youth, I was the best sinner there ever was. I got tired being on that treadmill and one night called out to God. I met a wonderful girl (who later became my wife) on a blind date who would not date anyone who didn't go to church. I was smitten and began to attend campmeeting services at old time Pentecostal churches. I was increasingly interested in what was going on. Eventually, attended bible college and seminary, graduating with a masters. All that to say that my faith has been evergrowing. Granted, some things I picked up over the years have been proved incorrect. When I have had questions, I have prayed and studied the Word. God has led me out of a lot of legalism and formalities that have nothing to do with my faith, being nothing more than mans traditions.
I have witnessed the power of our God in action. I know what He has brought me out of, and into. Man can water down His Word all he wants, my foundation is firm as my God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Though the time may change, He does not. Now I strive to be the best Christian there ever was.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/17/2009 5:12:37 AM
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agapist
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To nawer the thread, I don't. My belief is not anything i hold as a source of how I should act (or do) but only what leads me to total faith in Christ.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/17/2009 9:07:37 AM
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Grey_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robin-again
God is like the wind, the breeze, the air.
You feel it but you don't see it.
Faith... you must believe and you must have faith...in God.
Only through Jesus will you be able to meet GOD.
Your Maker.
I have been in an airplane and was soooo far above the clouds that the clouds gave the impression that the Earth does not exist.
and I KNEW IT DID...
It's like a child covering her/his eyes with their little hands and believing you can't see her/him. and you do. You're looking right at 'em.
I was saved 6 months ago and all this Spiritual way of life is new to me.
I have felt myself change, grow, and doing things to serve the Lord daily.
I am a different person since I've asked God to help me.
I feel calmer inside and happier knowing I'll never be alone again.
Jesus is now my best friend.
Bob, my other Best friend I was married to for 30 years, had passed away 3½ yrs ago.
I feel Bob is on one shoulder and Jesus is on the other.
I'm Happy.
Robin-again - Your simple words and explanation may me immediately think of these verses.
quote:
Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
One day I hope I can see things just that simply, and trust just that simply.
I accepted Jesus 25 years ago, you 6 months ago, yet you just fed my soul - Thank You, and Bless you my sister in Christ.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/18/2009 1:20:58 AM
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m4maggie
Posts: 1214
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for me, it's not a matter of "belief" per se... its a living breathing truth. I was saved over a year ago and every day I see proof of my Lord and Saviour at work in my life..
_____________________________
" I don't question your existence" - God
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/19/2009 10:42:30 PM
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Robin-again
Posts: 246
Joined: 8/2/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grey_1
One day I hope I can see things just that simply, and trust just that simply.
I accepted Jesus 25 years ago, you 6 months ago, yet you just fed my soul - Thank You, and Bless you my sister in Christ.
Thank you Grey. I am glad your soul was able to get fed with new Spiritual Food that was given.
One day I hope I can recall verses like you do.
May you continue growing closer toward the Lord and let Him shine through you so that others can find their way to Him also.
_____________________________
.
If we don't feel close to Him we are the ones that walked away. He is still right beside us.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/20/2009 3:56:35 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 417
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Grey_1, welcome to the forum and thank God for your humanity for such thread!
I grew up with a family who does idol and ancestors worshipping! By His mercy, I became a child of God when I went to the States for my BS degree in the late 90s, that really put my old man off completely! He thinks he was one paid for my college, I just can't do that to betray him and my own heritage! It has been 12 years, He kept reminding me over and over again, that I'm just a vanpior to him, socking most of the money he made! He regretted for sending me to the States for schooling!
Recently, I just went through my 3rd tumor surgery, and he continues to attack me, my faith, says that if the God I believe in is so good, how come all these things happen to me alone! I don't know how long I have to endure his verbal hurting in my life, but I am praying and believing that God will see me through!
See, there's power in faith, especially believing in the true, living God, who was, is and will be the same forever more! I believe being a Christian is not a mistake in my life, but a greatest gift I've ever received from God!
In Daniel 6: 3-4, "Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him ... Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion again Daniel concerning the kingdom ..." But see how he reacted in verse 10, "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he id aforetime." When friends, families treat us different because of our belief, that mean they see God in us, that scar them! By the grace of God, I just want to be like the same attitude that Daniel behaved! When I'm tempted, I could be still, regardless the situation!
I'd like to dedicated this beautiful song to all, "Duty-Still", this is just the task Jesus gives us, wait for Him till His returns! To God be the glory for being faithful to the ones who call upon Him!
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/20/2009 3:59:20 AM
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lhtytlp
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Ths is link of the song - Duty Still by Hillsong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZEUj0aHpY
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/20/2009 4:57:18 AM
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Grey_1
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lhtytlp, Thank you for the welcome! And you are so right, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is never a mistake. I will definitely be praying for you, for the grace and strength to come through your trials. LoL, I'm trying to think of a scripture, just something to give you, but what keeps coming to mind is a saying I heard...
"I would rather be a fool in the eyes of man than a fool in the eyes of God."
..can't remember the author, but I certainly know he is right. I hope and pray you heal quickly, and I hope and pray your relationship heals as the Lord would intend. Peace and May God Bless you..
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/20/2009 6:53:24 AM
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cposey
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grey_1, is what you are trying to reach an understanding of what should we as Christians offer to non- believers?
In my life, usually sinners are a little more "intune" with reality than Christians. Christians are undeniably hypocrites. We boast about our accomphishments, we condemn sinners and Christians alike, we mask our true selves. It is not our perfects portraits that we like to paint of ourselves that will lead others to Christ, but the awesome testimony of HIS redeeming work on the cross for us. It is our fallicies that point to God adn the need therein, not the good things we do. We can quote scripture and say you should do this and not do that till the cows come home, but others really could carel less about that kind of stuff. The Holy Spirit guiding us in each and every step we take and the reliance on that fully, will breathe life into someone else. God is the "author of life". The portrait that we need to paint for others is Christ and not what we think us or others need to look like.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/20/2009 8:35:34 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 417
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Grey_1, thanks for the words of encouragement! See what Apostle Paul said, "Nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ, shall famine, prosecution, ....." for true, nothing in this world could separate us from the way the God has love for His chosen ones! In my case when the East meets the West, it could create both good combination and some negative conflicts! That's just it, for over past one decade, it has been like that - they couldn't agree with my faith, so they find chances to attack me verbally and make fun of God! I can't do nothing more to change them at this point, but pray for the Spirit of the Lord to for reconciliation! It is said in Ecclesiastes, there's time for everything, that's what I belive so! God's timing is always the best as I count on HIM - My True Father!
cposey, thanks for the reply anyway. In most cases, people often see Christians as saints, but they are not, they are human beings like others, the only difference to be children of God is to have fear of God! No one in this world could ever be perfect, except our LORD Jesus Christ! We err at times, and the most importantly, we turn back to God for reconciliation! The Scripture say, "Speak the truth with Love", I think we all have to learn in life, including me! The way of approach in life counts a lot, at time it could just spoil the entire relationship only just one single bad sentence!
As I go through Scriptures especially in the OT, I know the people used by God are the same as we are today! However, through their stories, I find it helpful in my life and at times I wonder God truly is wonderful! Cause the way He treated Moses was definitely different from King David! The way He leads me wouldn't be the same from John Brown's life! That's just the mystery of our Lord - our One Father!
I used to see someone from the forum saying, it goes something like this - Life is not looking for something that is perfect, but to find something that would be mold toward perfection!
This is the song I really love - Finally Free from Nichole Norman, just listen to the lyrics, that's just it! Hope this may create profound understanding!
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/20/2009 10:16:50 AM
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Grey_1
Posts: 38
Joined: 2/10/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
grey_1, is what you are trying to reach an understanding of what should we as Christians offer to non- believers?
In my life, usually sinners are a little more "intune" with reality than Christians. Christians are undeniably hypocrites. We boast about our accomphishments, we condemn sinners and Christians alike, we mask our true selves. It is not our perfects portraits that we like to paint of ourselves that will lead others to Christ, but the awesome testimony of HIS redeeming work on the cross for us. It is our fallicies that point to God adn the need therein, not the good things we do. We can quote scripture and say you should do this and not do that till the cows come home, but others really could carel less about that kind of stuff. The Holy Spirit guiding us in each and every step we take and the reliance on that fully, will breathe life into someone else. God is the "author of life". The portrait that we need to paint for others is Christ and not what we think us or others need to look like.
You just left me speechless...my wife would love you!!!!
Joking there a bit, but you nailed it right home. Something my wife and I both feel very - even passionately about, is that we are who we are. What's important is WHOSE we are. Any false airs and pretenses only diminish the Glory our Lord wants to shine through us, both to the world, and to encourage and lift up our brothers and sisters.
HIS word calls -
His power saves-
HIS glory attracts
HIS Love and Grace forgive and raise up-
Praise God, you just said in a simple paragraph what I've been trying to with pages.
May God richly Bless you, and I Thank you!
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RE: Why do you believe what you do? - 10/20/2009 10:22:45 AM
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Grey_1
Posts: 38
Joined: 2/10/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lhtytlp
Grey_1, thanks for the words of encouragement! See what Apostle Paul said, "Nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ, shall famine, prosecution, ....." for true, nothing in this world could separate us from the way the God has love for His chosen ones! In my case when the East meets the West, it could create both good combination and some negative conflicts! That's just it, for over past one decade, it has been like that - they couldn't agree with my faith, so they find chances to attack me verbally and make fun of God! I can't do nothing more to change them at this point, but pray for the Spirit of the Lord to for reconciliation! It is said in Ecclesiastes, there's time for everything, that's what I belive so! God's timing is always the best as I count on HIM - My True Father!
Amen to that! "Abba" Father indeed!
I never knew how a Father was to be to a man until I met Jesus.
quote:
Deuteronomy 1:30
30The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes;
It held true for the children of Israel then, I believe with all my heart it holds true for us today.
Peace lhtytlp
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