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Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence for certain kinds of creatures interacting.
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Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence for c... - 11/1/2009 12:30:09 AM
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StephenJ
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Okay, so according to the Y.E.C timeline there were no vast periods of time (millions/billions of years) in the Earth's history. In other words the eras that most geologist call the Paleozoic, the Mesezoic, and the Cenezoic never happened. According to this idea, at most, the Earth is around 10,000 years old.
If that is the case we can logically assume that many of the creatures of the fossil record should have interacted with creatures alive today (this is the basis of YEC claims that dragons in legends are dinosaurs and that the creatures of Job 40 and 41 are also extinct animals.) If that is true then we can logically assume that there would be strong evidence of species from these diffrent geologically epochs should have interacted with each other. I'm talking about extinct animals interacting with non-human animals that are alive today.
I'll use the example of one of my absolute favorite dinosaurs Allosaurus. This dinosaur lived in the Western United States and has been found in states like Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Utah. The dislodged teeth of Allosarus have been found with the remains of giant sarupods, and I believe Stegosarus as well. In fact I believe some Allosaurus remains have been found with wounds that match the tail spikes of Stegosaurus, and that some stegosaurus remains have been found with Allosaurus bite marks on their back plates. This is strong evidence that Allosaurus either attacked these animals directly or scavanged their remains after they had died from other causes. It is definately strong evidence that these creatures probably interacted with eachother.
In recent centuries, the American Buffalo (or Bison) has lived in the same geographical area. Though their range and population has been greatly diminished by human activity. If the claims of Y.E.C advocates are true, we can logically believe that all of these animals would have been interacting with eachother at a point in the past several thousand years. So it would not be unreasonable to assume that Allosarus would have preyed upon or scavanged from the relatively abundant bison population. Or in reverse logically we could assume that the predators of today's American west ( like Wolves and Mountain lions) should have attacked or scavanged dead dinosaurs (especially the babies.) Just one problem...
No such overwhelming evidence exists. The relatively compressed timescale of the Y.E.C view should have yielded strong, irrefutable evidence of creatures interacting with eachother that most Palentologist agree didn't live at the same time. I know some creationist will pull out the suppoused Glen Rose dinosaur/human tracks, or the dragon stories, but I'm talking about entire ecosystems here. How would such crowded ecosystems work? And why isn't their abundant evidence for non-human animals from diffrent so called "time periods" hunting one another, and defending themselves against one another.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/1/2009 12:41:59 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 1:58:49 AM
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parkerbrother
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All the evidence of such interactions was washed away by the flood of course. 
Either that or the earth is infact 4.5 billion years old as 10,000 universities and museums full of evidence proves and as accepted by the entire body of world science.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 5:57:32 AM
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ManimalX
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It will take me two sentences to demonstrate how your assumption is blatantly false, and then a few more for chuckles. 
In my house, a Peruvian guinea pig lives within five feet of a Chinese Crested Hairless dog and an English Sheepdog. According to your adorably humorous conclusions, they don't REALLY live in my house, and must ACTUALLY live millions of years apart, since nobody has ever found a fossil of a Peruvian guinea pig alongside the fossil of an English Sheepdog, nor have they ever found the fossil of an English Sheepdog alongside the fossil of a Chinese Crested Hairless.
Do you realize how preposterous your claims are?
Speaking of fossils, you make it sound as if you trip over a fossil every time you walk out your front door. You DO realize how rare ancient fossil finds are, don't you? How few and far between they are? You DO realize how much square footage there is in the world, don't you? Even better, you DO realize how many cubic feet of DIRT and ROCKS there are on the Earth compared to the cubic feet of dirt and rocks moved around and examined by humans, right?
I have personally hiked up and down hundreds of miles of the northern Colorado Rocky Mountains, as well as hundreds of miles of the northern CO Pawnee National Grasslands. Aside from a few recently deceased cattle and a coyote or two, unless you count those, would you believe I have never come across a fossil? Even if you do count the coyote skeletons and cattle bones I have come across, none of them were laying on the ground spooning each other. According to your theory that means that coyote and cattle never lived in the same time period, and that no mountain lions or bighorn sheep ever lived in the Rocky Mountains of NoCo, because there is no "overwhelming" fossil record of them being found.
LOLlerskates!
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 11/1/2009 6:06:08 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 10:03:33 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Do you realize how preposterous your claims are? Apparently not...
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 1:04:41 PM
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StephenJ
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It's not silly at all.
I'm saying that there is evidence of certain dinosaurs interacting with eachother that is consistant within the geological eras presented by science, as well as geography. In the case of the dinosaurs I mentioned it's late Jurassic North America. There is also obviously evidence that wolves and Caribu interacted with eachother in 20th/21st century North America.
Fossils are indeed rare, I'm not arguing that they aren't. However, rare as they are we've still managed to find evidence of diffrent dinosaur species interacting with eachother within an ecological context (the above mentioned Allosarus and Stegosaurus examples.) We haven't found any strong emperical evidence of these same animals interacting with the creatures of today that share the same geographical area. When we do find strong irrefutable evidence I'll be glad to rethink my opinion.
I'm forming an opinion based on the available evidence, that's what good science is, not deciding what my view is and looking at the evidence through that lens. The physical data does not suppourt the idea that, for example Allosarus interacted with the American Bison when according to YEC thinking there is no reason that they shouldn't have as they lived in the same place at the same time, and one was a meat eater and one was an herbivore.
Your pets coming together is the direct result of artificial human activity, not natural encounters from a shared ecosystem. I don't believe your example is a valid analogy at all. At my local zoo (in Southern California) I've seen Squirrles scurrying around the trees near the Koala exhibit, it by no means proves that Koalas and California Squirrels naturally live in a shared ecosystem.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/1/2009 1:20:11 PM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 5:56:02 PM
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AnalystsAreUs
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quote:
I'm forming an opinion based on the available evidence, that's what good science is, not deciding what my view is and looking at the evidence through that lens.
Are you? The Bible contains a number of eye witness accounts of creation. Last time I checked, eye witness accounts were allowed as evidence in a court of law. In legal circles, this is called a deposition.
For example, Job 41:15 it says,
Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; He eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his hips, And his power is in his stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones are like beams of bronze, His ribs like bars of iron.
Based on the description of the tail("like a cedar"), I would say what is being discussed is a Titanosaurus http://www.go-fossils.com/Titanosaurus.html
Given that Job was human, this is evidence that man was alive when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Kind of screws up most “scientific” time lines, huh?
And the Job account of a dinosaur like looking creatures in existing ancient literature is by far not the only one. For example, in Chinese culture, there is the “mythological” dragon. The only reason why I say it’s mythological is because screws up the “accepted” man dinosaur time line.
http://www.chinapage.com/images/dragon.jpg
A good scientist will look at all sources of information. And when I mean all, I mean all.
< Message edited by AnalystsAreUs -- 11/1/2009 6:05:52 PM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 9:17:43 PM
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StephenJ
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Okay we've had this discussion before but quite a few translators believe that the "tail" of Behemoth refers to its sexual organ. It can perhaps be interpreted as a refrence to masculinity and strength. That's getting a bit off topic though. The were Behemoth and Leviathan extinct animals debate is the subject for another thread.
As for the creation account, at the earliest it was written many years after 4000 B.C. Tradition holds that it was written by Moses who it is believed lived (at the earliest) 2000 years after the events.
Anyway, I'm talking about paleoecology here and the evidence or lack of evidence of animal life from diffrent geological "eras" interacting with one another. If there were no vast geological eras seperating all of these creatures, then there should be strong evidence of them interacting with one another just as we know that Allosaurus interacted with Stegosaurus. I want someone to answer this question for me. Truth be told it would be a crowded ecosystem because every animal that ever existed in the area (we're using western North America again) should be there.
P.S The dragon is mythological because there's no evidence that dinosaurs could breathe fire, and we definately know that they couldn't fly through the air.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 9:24:06 PM
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drmark
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quote:
P.S The dragon is mythological because there's no evidence that dinosaurs could breathe fire, and we definately know that they couldn't fly through the air. Pardon me, but there is also no evidence that they could not "breathe fire". Also, aren't you forgetting pteranodons and pterodactyls?
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/1/2009 10:41:13 PM
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StephenJ
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Pteranodons and pterodactyls are not classified as dinosaurs. They are Pterosaurs, a completly diffrent but related group of animals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterosauria
One of the distinct things that scientest use to define dinosaurs is that they were land dwelling animals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur
As far as I know even the largest Pterosaurs (when we've found nearly complete skeletons) do not match the visual apperance of dragons in East Asian mythology (or western myth for that matter.) It is possible that the scattered remains of dinosaurs and Pterosaurs may have given rise to dragon legends though. I'd be willing to concede that.
The word that scientest from China use for dinosaur apparently involved the word dragon.
I think the burden of proof is on the argument making the extraordinary claim. If you're going to claim that an animal could do something as amazing as breathing fire, you're going to have to come up with some pretty amazing proof. Like something in it's anatomy that points to a mechanism that fascilitates generating and projecting fire. Even something like burn marks on known prey of said animal, and teeth marks that match the predator (or vice versa if this theoretical fire breather was an hervivore with a defensive mechanism) would go a long way. I'd be open to it, but I think science should be more inclined to focus on emperical evidence.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/1/2009 11:18:03 PM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/2/2009 8:29:09 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Pteranodons and pterodactyls are not classified as dinosaurs. Since when? They showed up in every dinosaur book I ever read as a child!
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/2/2009 1:12:24 PM
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demolay
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quote:
Your pets coming together is the direct result of artificial human activity, not natural encounters from a shared ecosystem. I don't believe your example is a valid analogy at all. At my local zoo (in Southern California) I've seen Squirrles scurrying around the trees near the Koala exhibit, it by no means proves that Koalas and California Squirrels naturally live in a shared ecosystem.
You're dismissing ManimalX's point too casually. What about evidience of penguin & desert fox interaction? What about kangaroo & lion interaction evidence? Is there any fossil evidence that an anaconda ever ate an elephant? Maybe they never lived at the same time. Or maybe they just never ate each other.
Your premise is absurd because, as rare as a fossil of ANY animal is (which you seem to agree), fossils that show interaction of any kind are exceedingly even MORE rare. The evidence you seek for "proof" does not exist for MOST animals that we would likely agree lived at the same times. Your assumption that animals that lived at the same time must therefore live in the same locals and find each other tasty enough to leave LOTS of evidence stretches credulity.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/2/2009 6:48:09 PM
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AnalystsAreUs
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quote:
P.S The dragon is mythological because there's no evidence that dinosaurs could breathe fire, and we definately know that they couldn't fly through the air.
Like I said, you need to look at all the evidence.
http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammals/methane-cow.htm
If cows can generate methane gas, Dinosaur could have on a much larger scale. If they could have generated enough friction(this is just one of several possible methods of ignition) with their teeth, they could have ignited it and breathed fire. Given that Job says that they breathed fire, you are so very very wrong.
Couldn't fly? How about you explain:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091013201749.htm
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/2/2009 9:50:00 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
quote:
P.S The dragon is mythological because there's no evidence that dinosaurs could breathe fire, and we definately know that they couldn't fly through the air.
Like I said, you need to look at all the evidence.
http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammals/methane-cow.htm
If cows can generate methane gas, Dinosaur could have on a much larger scale. If they could have generated enough friction(this is just one of several possible methods of ignition) with their teeth, they could have ignited it and breathed fire. Given that Job says that they breathed fire, you are so very very wrong.
Do you just make this stuff up?
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/2/2009 10:15:20 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Do you just make this stuff up? Just like evolutionists...
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/2/2009 10:20:14 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
quote:
P.S The dragon is mythological because there's no evidence that dinosaurs could breathe fire, and we definately know that they couldn't fly through the air.
Like I said, you need to look at all the evidence.
http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammals/methane-cow.htm
If cows can generate methane gas, Dinosaur could have on a much larger scale. If they could have generated enough friction(this is just one of several possible methods of ignition) with their teeth, they could have ignited it and breathed fire. Given that Job says that they breathed fire, you are so very very wrong.
Do you just make this stuff up?
-Dan.
Dan, in all fairness let me share something I learned from my time in the oil field. I pumped oil and natural gas wells and all of the stuff that went along with it, from natural stuff like methane and hydrogen sulfide to the methanol I had to use to keep flow lines and drain lines from freezing. Let me tell you, one small static discharge around even a small amount of any of that stuff equals a very big boom, and several of my coworkers died in exactly such an accident.
Oil companies have VERY strict policies about the things you can bring into each "battery" (the name of the are that contains the production tank, water pit, separator, and/or pumpjacks/pumping units). No electronic devices of any kind except for approved items that were designed not to produce any static discharge. That includes even flashlights that aren't of a specific design.
It isn't hard to imagine a natural way that a flammable material could be ignited by an animal which produces such a material.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/3/2009 1:55:37 AM
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ValleySounds
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As for fire breathing we do have an animal that can produce fire
The Bombardier Beetle
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1446600/bombardier_beetle_defies_evolution/
I have seen plenty of fossil evidence that there were humans living in the same timeline as the dinos. I did however not see any evidence of this in school or text books there. Now any of the evidence I have seen seems to be quickly dismissed by the evolutionist community.
Here is one example
A quick paragraph on human fossilzed footprints found IN dinosaurs footprints
"This is one of three tracks featured at the 1989 Dayton, TN creation conference that was destroyed the next day. On August 12, 1989 Dr. Don Patton spoke at a creation conference in Dayton, TN. He presented compelling evidence that both human and dinosaur tracks were present at the Taylor Trail, including the above pictures. Two well known evolutionists were present and at least one was conspicuously disturbed by this presentation. Both flew to Dallas the next morning and went immediately to the Paluxy River. It is reliably reported that they were in the river that afternoon with an "iron bar." Three days before they were in the river the footprint was observed looking like the picture above. Three days after they were in the river, it was observed looking like the picture left. "
link here
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/3/2009 5:00:02 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Pteranodons and pterodactyls are not classified as dinosaurs. Since when? They showed up in every dinosaur book I ever read as a child!
Pterosaurs and dinosaurs are diffrent, but related. Again one of the things that makes a dinosaur a dinosaur is the fact that it's land based. Pterosaurs had wings and were built for flight. This defenition of dinosauria also excludes the now extinct marine reptiles like plesiosaur.
AnalystsAreUs, you may not know this but I am a Vegan, I choose my diet in large part out of concern for the enviroment. I know all about the cows=methane issue. As ruminents cows and other animals do produce and expel this very potent gas. That being said a cows farting and belching because of the design of its digestive track is not the same thing as a creature actually being able to project fire from its mouth.
As for this article,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091013201749.htm
It again refers to a pterosaur. The other creature in the image, is a small dinosaur. If that's what you mean by "flying dinosaur" then you won't get much argument from most scientest nowadays, they're sort of like the "flying dinosaurs" that leave presents on my windshield. Just don't bring it up among Young Earthers....birdysaurus is a big no no. Come to think of it the whole article deals with two "missing links." In any case it still doesn't fit the visual depictions of dragons from ancient art. Four legged creatures with wings on their backs.
As for firebreathing we've again gone into speculation mode about what "could" be. I will again say that nothing in the emperical fossil record backs up the claim that these extinct animals could breathe fire. We obviously have plenty of evidence that the Bombardier Beetle can do what it does. Come to think of it why would a water dwelling creature even need to breathe fire anyway? It's not very practical if you're aquatic.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/3/2009 5:13:50 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/3/2009 5:02:09 AM
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StephenJ
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Oh and alot of Y.E.C advocates don't use the suppoused Glen Rose tracks as evidence anymore. For a good reason I've read...
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/3/2009 6:45:41 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ValleySounds
As for fire breathing we do have an animal that can produce fire
The Bombardier Beetle
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1446600/bombardier_beetle_defies_evolution/
That's a hot reaction between liquids, but it's not fire.
quote:
I have seen plenty of fossil evidence that there were humans living in the same timeline as the dinos. I did however not see any evidence of this in school or text books there. Now any of the evidence I have seen seems to be quickly dismissed by the evolutionist community.
Here is one example
A quick paragraph on human fossilzed footprints found IN dinosaurs footprints
"This is one of three tracks featured at the 1989 Dayton, TN creation conference that was destroyed the next day. On August 12, 1989 Dr. Don Patton spoke at a creation conference in Dayton, TN. He presented compelling evidence that both human and dinosaur tracks were present at the Taylor Trail, including the above pictures. Two well known evolutionists were present and at least one was conspicuously disturbed by this presentation. Both flew to Dallas the next morning and went immediately to the Paluxy River. It is reliably reported that they were in the river that afternoon with an "iron bar." Three days before they were in the river the footprint was observed looking like the picture above. Three days after they were in the river, it was observed looking like the picture left. "
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm
Even AIG and ICR have conceded that the Paluxy tracks are, at best, questionable.
AIG - Arguments [YEC's] should avoid
ICR - The Paluxy River Mystery
quote:
In view of these developments, none of the four trails at the Taylor site can today be regarded as unquestionably of human origin. The Taylor Trail appears, obviously, dinosaurian, as do two prints thought to be in the Turnage Trail. The Giant Trail has what appears to be dinosaur prints leading toward it, and some of the Ryals tracks seem to be developing claw features, also.
...
Even though it would now be improper for creationists to continue to use the Paluxy data as evidence against evolution, in the light of these questions, there is still much that is not known about the tracks and continued research is in order. We stand committed to truth, and will gladly modify or abandon our previous interpretation of the Paluxy data as the facts dictate.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/3/2009 7:32:20 PM
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AnalystsAreUs
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quote:
AnalystsAreUs, you may not know this but I am a Vegan, I choose my diet in large part out of concern for the enviroment. I know all about the cows=methane issue. As ruminents cows and other animals do produce and expel this very potent gas. That being said a cows farting and belching because of the design of its digestive track is not the same thing as a creature actually being able to project fire from its mouth.
Looks like your Vegan hopes are falling on death ears. I just read an interesting statistic today that said because of our farming techniques on non-animal based farms, we are killing off all available farm land at an alarming rate. And what's truly a joke about this is that there is significantly more hard evidence for this issue than Al Gore could ever wish for. But I guess that European lobbies pay better than plain old mother earth. Our grand children could be in a situation that would be far worse than any potato famine.
Yes, the gas expulsion is different. I never said it was the same. What I am saying is that there is significant documentation that these creatures existed and that it's physiologically possible for them to breath fire.
If the electric eel can generate a 500V charge at will ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_eel ), any dinosaur that had this capability should be able to breath fire at will also.
And my guess is that it was this very ability to breath fire which caused their ultimate demise. With no understanding of modern science, these fire breathing creatures would look very scary to most individuals who lived with them at the time and would probably have been perceived to be a threat. So what did pre-modern man do at the time? He killed them and mostly likely anything that looked like them.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/5/2009 2:52:07 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
quote:
AnalystsAreUs, you may not know this but I am a Vegan, I choose my diet in large part out of concern for the enviroment. I know all about the cows=methane issue. As ruminents cows and other animals do produce and expel this very potent gas. That being said a cows farting and belching because of the design of its digestive track is not the same thing as a creature actually being able to project fire from its mouth.
Looks like your Vegan hopes are falling on death ears. I just read an interesting statistic today that said because of our farming techniques on non-animal based farms, we are killing off all available farm land at an alarming rate. And what's truly a joke about this is that there is significantly more hard evidence for this issue than Al Gore could ever wish for. But I guess that European lobbies pay better than plain old mother earth. Our grand children could be in a situation that would be far worse than any potato famine.
Yes, the gas expulsion is different. I never said it was the same. What I am saying is that there is significant documentation that these creatures existed and that it's physiologically possible for them to breath fire.
If the electric eel can generate a 500V charge at will ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_eel ), any dinosaur that had this capability should be able to breath fire at will also.
And my guess is that it was this very ability to breath fire which caused their ultimate demise. With no understanding of modern science, these fire breathing creatures would look very scary to most individuals who lived with them at the time and would probably have been perceived to be a threat. So what did pre-modern man do at the time? He killed them and mostly likely anything that looked like them.
Just because an eel can generate electricity doesn't mean that a dinosaur or other extinct animal can breathe fire. And again nobody has given me anything in the fossil record that demonstrates a fire shooting system.
If humans killed the dinosaurs, where is the evidence? If some ancient genius had the inspiration one day to attack a full grown Diplodicus with a spear (and this wasn't unusual) , why haven't we found evidence. I mean we've found evidence that humans may have helped kill of the Mammoths, why not dinosaurs?
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/5/2009 3:03:58 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/7/2009 3:26:17 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: ValleySounds
As for fire breathing we do have an animal that can produce fire
The Bombardier Beetle
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1446600/bombardier_beetle_defies_evolution/
That's a hot reaction between liquids, but it's not fire.
Perhaps not, but in an early age in time, before it was an understanding of reaction between liquids, don't you think people who have defined it as "fire?"
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/7/2009 5:56:55 PM
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iluvatar
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ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
Perhaps not, but in an early age in time, before it was an understanding of reaction between liquids, don't you think people who have defined it as "fire?"
Sure, that's possible. But us old-earthers get a lot of angry responses from the YEC'ers whenever we suggest that maybe Gen 1 was written in a manner for people w/ less scientific understanding and worldview than we currently have.
-Dan.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/7/2009 6:26:42 PM
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AnalystsAreUs
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In recent centuries, the American Buffalo (or Bison) has lived in the same geographical area.
Given that Bison are still around and that the Allosaurus is not might indicate that Bison can out run an Allosaurus. After all, they can outrun humans. If they can outrun them then there would logically be no interaction.
You also don’t know if the Allosaurus was a predator of the other species or was even hunted itself. You don’t even know how fast it was, it’s sense of smell or it’s vision capability. For example, did the Allosaurus eat the other species it interacted with and leave no remains? Or if the Allosaurus ate other species, did scavenger animals drag off the remains to other areas? And what if the other species just stayed far far away because they were scared to death?
All in all, you have very very little idea how an Allosaurus would interact with any other species.
In addition, you do not know when Buffalos were introduced to America. What if man killed off all of the Allosaurus first and then the Buffalos were brought here? God knows we almost killed off all of the Buffalos.
The problem with trying to discover what happened in the past is that, well, we just don’t know every much. Sure you can speculate, but you are just speculating.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/8/2009 2:26:47 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
quote:
In recent centuries, the American Buffalo (or Bison) has lived in the same geographical area.
Given that Bison are still around and that the Allosaurus is not might indicate that Bison can out run an Allosaurus. After all, they can outrun humans. If they can outrun them then there would logically be no interaction.
You also don’t know if the Allosaurus was a predator of the other species or was even hunted itself. You don’t even know how fast it was, it’s sense of smell or it’s vision capability. For example, did the Allosaurus eat the other species it interacted with and leave no remains? Or if the Allosaurus ate other species, did scavenger animals drag off the remains to other areas? And what if the other species just stayed far far away because they were scared to death?
All in all, you have very very little idea how an Allosaurus would interact with any other species.
In addition, you do not know when Buffalos were introduced to America. What if man killed off all of the Allosaurus first and then the Buffalos were brought here? God knows we almost killed off all of the Buffalos.
The problem with trying to discover what happened in the past is that, well, we just don’t know every much. Sure you can speculate, but you are just speculating.
Well yes we do know that Allosaurus either hunted or scavanged other dinosaurs. As mentioned above we've found injuries in plant eating dinosaurs that match the teeth of Allosaurus. This suggests a shared ecosystem. No such thing exists for Allosarus and animals that we know live today.
If this were CSI or a forensic police show we'd have locked the killer up or brought him in for destroying evidence.
point 2.
There are Buffalo/Bison like creatures in the old world and new. This suggests migration via the land bridge that we know once existed between Alaska and Siberia, not human introduction of them.
Logically antelope, rabbits, and deer can outrun most of their predators, their predators still get them sometimes though.
The idea of scavanging animals staying away from big mean looking predators isn't suppourted by biology. For example scavanging birds don't stay away from food that lions have killed they wait for the lions to get done, and then dig in.
If Allosaurus were exterminated by human predation, where is the evidence?
Again where are the spear tips in their remains? Where are the Native American artifacts (remember they were North American animals) made out of their bones? We know that the native peoples of the American west made tools out of the other animals they hunted, why not dinosaurs if they coexisted? We also have evidence that ancient humans hunted now extinct animals in Europe (and it is believed the 1st Americans did the same with animals like Mammoths.) There should be ample evidence if they also killed of Allosaurus and other meat eating dinosaurs.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/8/2009 2:34:17 AM >
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