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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/22/2006 8:31:48 PM
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netstroller
Posts: 214
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: dust and ashes
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quote:
Self gratification always takes a bad rap, and I think unreasonable so. The logical extension of avoiding all self gratification results in absurdity.
I agree, self-gratification is not inherently bad. Otherwise God himself would be the first sinner. After all, He made us for His pleasure, which is self-gratification, among other (good) things. Self-gratification can be a bad thing, when it is done with disregard for others, such as when husbands unduly withhold affection from their wives, or when wives unduly withold sex.
_____________________________
...let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, ...
(Heb 12:1-2)
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/23/2006 8:21:41 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3577
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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Withholding affection or sex is not just cause for rape.
ever.
_____________________________
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/24/2006 12:33:57 AM
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netstroller
Posts: 214
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: dust and ashes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Withholding affection or sex is not just cause for rape.
ever.
No, never said it was, if you're referring to my post. I was addressing only what I quoted in my post. I'm not getting into the rape discussion because it's been more emotional reactions then rational discussion and the Word has not carried much weight.
_____________________________
...let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, ...
(Heb 12:1-2)
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/31/2006 12:20:02 PM
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ZALMON
Posts: 2
Joined: 10/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
In the women's folder there is a thread on what should be the punishment for marital rape. THe current consensus is that it should be the same as rape by a stranger.
Guys, what do you think about this?
Do you think marital rape exists, and should it be a crime?
What should the punishment be?
Assuming the definition of rape is unwanted, non-consentual sex, then yes, it is rape and the husband should go to jail for it. He should be put on the registered sex offender list so that future women will know not to date him (assuming reconciliation is not possible in the current marriage).
To me that seems pretty black and white and I don't know why we are even arguing this. I see nothing in scripture that says the husband has the right to have sex with his wife whenever he wants to. Sex is a gift GIVEN by a wife to her husband (and vice versa). Also, sex is primarly about the relationship. That is, sex is a way given to us by God to please our spouses and through that we build a very intimate relationship. In no way is this possible to do if sex is done without consent.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 9/5/2006 11:10:59 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3577
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
...it is rape and the husband should go to jail for it. He should be put on the registered sex offender list so that future women will know not to date him (assuming reconciliation is not possible in the current marriage). And if reconciliation does happen, she will be subjected to a lot of bad stuff like getting tires slashed, the house egged or stoned, death threats in the mail box or nailed to the door...
All the fun stuff those on the sex offender list get to enjoy. The list makes no differentiation between a guy that talked his underage gf into letting him fondle her and a serial rapist-murderer pedophile.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 9/7/2006 2:53:42 PM
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ShepherdAndSheep
Posts: 15
Joined: 5/3/2006
From: Wisconsin
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
In the women's folder there is a thread on what should be the punishment for marital rape. THe current consensus is that it should be the same as rape by a stranger.
Guys, what do you think about this?
Do you think marital rape exists, and should it be a crime?
What should the punishment be?
Assuming the definition of rape is unwanted, non-consentual sex, then yes, it is rape and the husband should go to jail for it. He should be put on the registered sex offender list so that future women will know not to date him (assuming reconciliation is not possible in the current marriage).
To me that seems pretty black and white and I don't know why we are even arguing this. I see nothing in scripture that says the husband has the right to have sex with his wife whenever he wants to. Sex is a gift GIVEN by a wife to her husband (and vice versa). Also, sex is primarly about the relationship. That is, sex is a way given to us by God to please our spouses and through that we build a very intimate relationship. In no way is this possible to do if sex is done without consent.
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!
quote:
And if reconciliation does happen, she will be subjected to a lot of bad stuff like getting tires slashed, the house egged or stoned, death threats in the mail box or nailed to the door...
All the fun stuff those on the sex offender list get to enjoy. The list makes no differentiation between a guy that talked his underage gf into letting him fondle her and a serial rapist-murderer pedophile.
I would say even as King David lost his son and his sons became his enemies as the ramifications for his adultery with Bathsheba, so should the man suffer for raping his wife, the lady he promised to protect. If she went as far a charging him and reconciliation occurs then I say he still should stay on the offender list until such time that is deemed that he is redeemed. To simply remove him because the wife recants or reconciles is not enough. The incentive would be to get off that list by never repeating the action again! This may hurt the women for a season but it would save other women who love their husbands but want the abuse to stop because a second conviction would put him permanently on the list.
Scripture to be understood:
quote:
1 Peter 2:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor to the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers would not be hindered.
"Dwell with them (wives) according to knowledge" is saying know your wife and understand her. That includes understand her desire not have sex today, this week, etc. But men should know their wives as well as they know themselves, their wants, their desires, etc. That ties into the next part of honoring them and their wishes. You cannot honor your wife as you force her physically or emotionally to comply with your desires. Which points to the next point, she is the weaker vessel and your responsibility is to protect her from her fears NOT Contribute to them!! The next point is the killer that you are joint heirs, when you rape your wife you are raping God's daughter. Which is why the last part also ties in, God almighty Himself will not answer and even hinder your prayers if you do. No where else in the bible do I know of where God says He will not only not listen but hinder your prayers. This is serious!! This passage applies to other topics of understanding, honoring, protecting, your joint heir in life but it most definitely applies to raping your wife.
One last bullet in the gun of God's argument against raping wives is that the passage quoted above is just prior to God's desire for women's behavior so that the men would understand that just because she is to submissive it does not give you the right to be a malicious dictator. AMEN.
_____________________________
Shepherd and Sheep
Christ paid a debt he did not owe for me a sinner who owed a debt I could not pay.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 9/7/2006 7:22:09 PM
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ShepherdAndSheep
Posts: 15
Joined: 5/3/2006
From: Wisconsin
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Ok, I was convicted of yet another bullet to the thought of wife raping. We as men of God are required to present our wives spotless before the lord. The bible states that we are only to fear the Lord and all other fear is sin. So if we teach our wives to fear us as men through rape and abuse we are causing them to sin and sinning ourselves by doing so.
_____________________________
Shepherd and Sheep
Christ paid a debt he did not owe for me a sinner who owed a debt I could not pay.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 9/8/2006 6:51:45 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3577
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShepherdAndSheep
So if we teach our wives to fear us as men through rape and abuse we are causing them to sin and sinning ourselves by doing so. Good point. We are not to tempt or incite others to sin.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 9/10/2006 2:14:48 AM
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Ah-pappapishu
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShepherdAndSheep
Ok, I was convicted of yet another bullet to the thought of wife raping. We as men of God are required to present our wives spotless before the lord. The bible states that we are only to fear the Lord and all other fear is sin. So if we teach our wives to fear us as men through rape and abuse we are causing them to sin and sinning ourselves by doing so.
I dont know if the two fears are the same. One fear is an emotion of displeasure. The other, is an emotion God wants us to have for him.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 7/8/2007 12:26:39 AM
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emsolideogloria
Posts: 1
Joined: 7/7/2007
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I had a mild-mannered Christian professor tell my philosophy club quite definitively that there is no such thing as marital rape. I have since heard the sentiment a few times from hierarchial and patriarichal Christians.
The usual justification seems to be that the Christian spouse does not have power over his/her own body and that the wife owes her husband sex. As one poster on this thread put it, if she didn't want sex, she shouldn't have gotten married. Another individual compared wives to bought goods. Still another to children who have to obey in what is asked of them.
Multiple questions have been addressed in this thread, but let's start with the original one: Does it exist and what should be the punishment. It does exist. The punishment should be the same as for extra-marital rape. Godly men don't rape their wives. And, the joyful obligation of one spouse to satisfy the other's sexual desires does not mean that one person has the right to force the other. To put it differently, just because she is obligated before God to give herself to her husband doesn't mean that he has the right before God to force her to graftify any sexual desire he may have, including brutalization and physical injury. She is not an object for his use. Before she is his wife, she is his sister in the Lord -- with him, she is the bride of Christ. Shepherdandsheep also made the very good point that tempting her to sin is sin on her husband's part. Is punishment as a sex offender too harsh for husbands? No -- not if they really did it. Few marriages survive a rape conviction. It is important for the wife who is brave enough to come forward and report a rape to know that she has protection under the law. The husband can seem to be completly in control and her fear of him so complete that reporting the crime seems impossible. Add to that the fact that discussing this subect is taboo in the church and many church leaders will just blame her for not being a good enough wife and many Christian women will just take the abuse without ever confronting their abuser. Imagine the courage involved in applying Matthew 18 to a husband who rapes you. And, see the next question for the false accusation issue.
But other good points have been raised here:
What about false accusations of rape? They do happen. They are wrong. In a culture that sometimes is more inclined to believe that men are sinners than women, I can understand men being skittish about the whole subject of marital rape because of the possibility of false accusation. But, false accusations happen outside of marriage too. Women are sinners too. And, who would want to eliminate all rape, incest and child abuse laws because of the reality of false accusations? Such a "cure" is far worse than the "disease."
How do you prove marital rape? Except in cases of extreme brutality, it is very difficult. Few marital rape cases are prosecuted and even fewer result in convictions by a jury. In a relationship which is inherently sexual - marriage - proving rape beyond a reasonable doubt is no easy matter. Physical evidence can prove that sex occurred, but whether it was consensual is often "he said / she said," unless there is injury. Even where there is minor physical damage, the sex may have been consensual, but rough -- as has already been observed. That doesn't mean marital rape is ever right -- if the threat of force or psychological manipulation is used to force the wife, it is just as wrong, but much harder to prove.
Isn't it just as wrong for the wife to refuse her husband? It is wrong. I don't believe it is just as wrong, but before I go there, let me elaborate on the first point. Believe it or not, sometimes men don't feel like it either. In a healthy marriage, both partners lay down their own wishes to serve each other. Sometimes that means not having sex when you want to and sometimes that means having sex when you don't want to -- for both husbands and wives. Ideally, no spouse would ever say "no" but ideally, none of us would ever sin against each other in any way. Both men and women were created to have healthy sexual desire for each other. Many things -- from hormone levels, to exhastion, to past abuse, can alter that desire. But for men, biological realities make sexual fulfillment more urgent than for women. I wouldn't want to say "just deal" to men who are being refused sex on a regular basis. Marriage is supposed to be God's provision for sexual desire. A wife who consistently refuses sex to her husband is not honoring God or her husband, and I say that knowing that there are many reasons she may do this and many of them may have to do with her husband's sins against her. Again, just because he has sinned against her, doesn't mean she has the right to sin against him. And tempting him to sin, is sin. To both husband and wife, Scripture would suggest that a pattern of sexual refusal requires Matthew 18 loving confrontation, including Christian counseling, ideally from your pastor. Why isn't refusal as serious as rape (and deserving of criminal punishment)? Well, think about it. One is a sin of omission and the other of commission. Both are wrong but the level of relational damage is usually different. One act of rape entirely destroys trust in a relationship. One act of refusal results in frustration and a nocternal emission -- and may tempt him to self-gratification. And, if you think proving marital rape is tough, try proving refusal in a court of law! Another note for the men (and ladies too), sexual desire in marriage is not necessarily lust and it isn't wrong -- you are right about that. Desiring your spouse doesn't make you a creep. Abusing your spouse sexually does. If you are a normal guy or gal with healthy sexual desires, you may not even imagine the sort of cruelty and torture that some people can inflict on each other. But just because you wouldn't do it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and, yes, it does happen in the church too.
Let's practice the golden rule. But let's not naively assume that everyone does so.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 5/14/2008 12:19:55 PM
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JesusHorseWhisperer
Posts: 1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sc1t0r
No way.
Marital rape? I've always had problems with that term. ANYone with a wicked agenda could claim rape against anyone they've had sexual realtions with. Of course, people would have trouble believing a woman raped a man... and a wicked woman could claim her husband raped her.. but where's the proof? Is a husband, pinning his wife down to have sex with her rape? What defines rape in a marriage?
When she says, "No."?
See, even then, I have a problem with it. A wife and husband are to give to each other of this. If a man is pinning her down, yet lovingly trying to... ehh it's too "grey". I hate it. It's of Satan,and the liberals are holding hands with Satan on this one.. destroy marriage with "rights" and villifying your spouse. Satanswants to break down the church and marriage. He wants us to think we don't need God, or each other....
The notion of marital rape. It's almost an oxymoron. It actually sounds like a litigous term used by 3rd Reich Femi-Nazi Women's Lib Czar's who hate God, burn flags, don't eat meat, and glorify same sex sexual relationships.
Disgusting.
Yes, it would be insensitive and unloving for a man to force his wife to do something sexual. If he took a gun or another inanimate object out and threatened her life, or her health, yes, that could be seen as rape. Yet, if he was aggressive in order to persuade her, I could see that as a wonderful thing. Wonderful? YES.. because that could be the answer to some dynamic in thier relationship. By my understanding, sometimes what a man or woman needs in a marriage is ... sex. Sex was made for wayyy more than just "baby making'.
I can see how women that want to abandon thier husbands and join the donkey worshipping, yuppy, women's lib, bra burning, femi-nazi, anti-man, baby killing, elitists could use this as a way out.. and a way to villify man.
Yeah, and God is male, so they hate Him for that.. blah.
Anyhow.. This isssue is retarded. Thanks.
quote:
utterfly.
Rape for jesus! yay!?
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