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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2009 12:48:42 PM
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stateofgrace
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Theoretically, couldn't a pastor be held liable if he pressured someone to either not seek treatment, or go off meds...and then that person caused harm to themselves or others?
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2009 1:09:53 PM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
Theoretically, couldn't a pastor be held liable if he pressured someone to either not seek treatment, or go off meds...and then that person caused harm to themselves or others?
Interesting question. Too bad I don't have a thought provoking answer for you.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2009 1:18:52 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 472
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
Isn't there any basis to hesitate when a pill is offering some of the same things salvation offers? Like what? My meds don't offer me eternal life. God does.
Agreed, only God offers eternal life and a truly renewed mind. From what I understand (which is minimal) some meds, with some people, have provided improved peace, patience, self-control, and clarity of thought among other things.
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Shouldn't a distinction be drawn? I believe that we can often treat the symptoms of something (in my case bipolar) with medication and once stable look at other options that can be used. Two years ago, I wouldn't have been able to cope with the therapy that I had without medications. Because of changes in my life, I've opted (with my doctors knowledge and support) to come of my meds and undergo further therapy. I may well need to go back on my meds, but right now I'm ok.
I have seen and heard experiences exactly like this before and this makes sense to me personally.
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I would much rather NOT have bipolar but I have it. Perhaps because of it I've learnt to cling closer to God than many people who don't have mental health issues and I suspect that while my life isn't easy ~ but since when did God promise us an easy life? ~ I have a peace that I am right with God that I know many don't.
I think this is where I'd want everyone to be - clinging closer to God in the midst of whatever and not using whatever as the excuse to rebel. Meds, no-meds, however you get to this place is where I'd like to be guiding people.
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When the person with the diagnosis engages in sinful behavior... It depends. ...
A bit tangential but to answer -- the theory here is that the mental health issues are the primary contributor to poor choices (basically impulsive, short sighted choices.) The poor choices have consequences, and the lies are the chosen way to try to escape the consequences.
So would we conclude that the meds address the core issue (and are needed first), then we consider sin and rebellion? Or do we first say that sin and rebellion are the core issue to address first and meds are second (if at all).
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2009 1:34:50 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
The poor choices have consequences, and the lies are the chosen way to try to escape the consequences. I rather suspect that there are plenty of Christians who don't have mental health problems who lie to escape the consequences of their poor choices!
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So would we conclude that the meds address the core issue (and are needed first), then we consider sin and rebellion? Or do we first say that sin and rebellion are the core issue to address first and meds are second (if at all). No we should NOT conclude that meds address the core issue. We need to look to God and take direction from Him, not simply hand out meds to make someone comply with what is acceptable behaviour. Without God NOTHING is going to work.
Medications may address the core issues for some people. They may not work for every person though. Remember that we are all individuals.
I have a friend who has brittle diabeties. When she has a hypo she acts totally out of character to the way she behaves normally. It would be pointless for me to tell her (during a hypo) that she's behaving badly because she cannot recognise that. When her hypo is over, she is able to apologise for what she's done.
The pastor that you spoke of is NOT taking direction from God. He's leaping to conclusion that people don't need medication for mental health issues. His words are pretty dangerous ~ and he's pretty lucky that he doesn't know me.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2009 1:56:42 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
The pastor that you spoke of is NOT taking direction from God. He's leaping to conclusion that people don't need medication for mental health issues. His words are pretty dangerous ~ and he's pretty lucky that he doesn't know me.
So I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion. For one, I only know what was heard... not what was said exactly or why. I may eventually speak to the pastor to understand his position -- which is kind of why I'm trolling here for info on what he may think and why.
I have heard people assert that people are using psychotropic drugs to accomplish things that can (should) be done without drugs. I tend to think this could be true in some, but NOT all cases.
Here is the essential answer I gave last night --
I do NOT agree that Christians should not use drugs to treat mental illness. There would be a logical extension of that restriction to all drugs (eg for physical illness too) and I do not hold that view. In some cases I've known about, people told me that without meds they struggled to pray, struggled to function, struggled with life... then with meds they were able to get to a place where they could pray and were able to make progress. I believe there is a large spectrum of symptoms possible and it's not really possible to make a statement that "all Christians should" in this context.
It turned out to be a well received answer... since the person who asked me (in context about someone else) then confided that they also use similar meds.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2009 2:09:45 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
I may eventually speak to the pastor to understand his position -- which is kind of why I'm trolling here for info on what he may think and why. To be honest, you should speak with the pastor anyway. Either someone is grossly misunderstanding what he is saying, they are spreading rumour about what he is saying or he (the pastor) needs to look at what he is saying ~ because his words (the way you have repeated them) can be dangerous ~ and how they are being interpreted.
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Maggie
September 09
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2009 3:40:01 PM
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slushie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
No we should NOT conclude that meds address the core issue. We need to look to God and take direction from Him, not simply hand out meds to make someone comply with what is acceptable behaviour. Without God NOTHING is going to work.
Amen!
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2009 5:48:36 PM
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PinkCarnations
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I agree solo. Uneducated opinions are not ignorance, they are stupidity.
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2009 10:47:51 PM
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PinkCarnations
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Thank you solo and huangshan for being willing to discuss things over here. Just my observation, but people tend to shy away from this thread for some reason.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 3:08:46 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
Thank you solo and huangshan for being willing to discuss things over here. Just my observation, but people tend to shy away from this thread for some reason.
I don't want to editorialize too much on the format of the forum, but I tend to find megathreads rather stifling for good conversation.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 12:25:38 PM
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Child4Jesus
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I will ask the question here that I asked over in the other thread. The woman is question supposedly refused to take her meds and was taking drugs.
With that being said. Is she responsible for what she did? If you are told that ________________ will prevent you from doing ____________________ and you refuse to do _____________________ . Then on top of that you are taking illegal drugs which increase the chances of you doing _______________ are you responsible when ______________ happens?
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Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2009 12:47:52 PM
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agapetos
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Richad, you're making it sound as though it's a very simple and rational decision. Take your meds and you will be fine. Don't and you'll be sick. Someone goes to the doctor and is given antibiotics to treat the problem with the instructions 'Complete the course'. The course is for 7 days. They feel better after 3 days so stop taking the medication (well, they're better and it's not good to take too many antibiotics is it?). Then the become sick again and trot down to the doctors and need to be given stronger antibiotics (which they may or may not take correctly). And this behaviour is someone who has no mental health problems.
So why should it be expected that someone with mental health problems should understand, accept and appreciate that they need to take their meds as instructed to stay well?
I am not saying that she bears no responsibility for her actions but I wonder whether she was given any support to understand her illness and be monitored for it, or was she simply packed off with the medications?
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Maggie
September 09
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2009 12:39:00 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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I agree that it is a decision to make. People make the decision to go against doctor's orders. That doesn't absolve them for it. There's a reason the doctor says to complete the medicine regardless of how you feel.
The same thing with a mental illness medicine. You need to take the medicine for a reason and unless the doctor says otherwise, then do it. If the doctor feels you can go off your meds he will find a suitable way to do it and not just stop you.
Like I said in the other thread this woman knew she had a disorder and decided to go against medical advice. Sure...if we go off antibiotics we just get sick again and have to get on more. Someone with a mental disorder? Well...we see here what can happen.
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When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
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RE:MentalHealthDebate-OneStopThread - 7/31/2009 1:00:44 PM
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PinkCarnations
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It is hard for many people to understand that they need to stay on meds until their dr. tells them otherwise.
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RE: RE:MentalHealthDebate-OneStopThread - 7/31/2009 1:05:24 PM
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manda59
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I'd say especially with meds for schizophrenia. So many people I've spoken to have told me that the meds not only nuke the voices, the paranoia etc, but *also* nuke emotions, memory etc. People I've spoken to say they just feel dead inside.
And I'd doubt very much if any schizophrenics are told "take your meds or you will kill someone".
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RE: RE:MentalHealthDebate-OneStopThread - 7/31/2009 1:26:05 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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No but to follow any mental illness you have to know that the consequences of not taking meds could be detrimental whether it be homicidal tendencies, suicidal tendences, aggressive rages...anything is possible. Why take the chance?
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: RE:MentalHealthDebate-OneStopThread - 7/31/2009 1:31:50 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 9744
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From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
The same thing with a mental illness medicine. You need to take the medicine for a reason and unless the doctor says otherwise, then do it. If the doctor feels you can go off your meds he will find a suitable way to do it and not just stop you. That's fine for someone with a brain that functions correctly ~ but if a brain is wired incorrectly (for want of a better expression ~ and if you're hearing voices, isn't that a suggestion of something being wired incorrectly) then simply expecting someone to take medications regularly is difficult.
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Maggie
September 09
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RE: RE:MentalHealthDebate-OneStopThread - 7/31/2009 1:48:46 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 9744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
No but to follow any mental illness you have to know that the consequences of not taking meds could be detrimental whether it be homicidal tendencies, suicidal tendences, aggressive rages...anything is possible. Why take the chance?
Because often the people with a mental illness do not fully understand the consequences of not taking their medication.
Someone on antibiotics stops taking their meds early. Why? Because they feel better. They do not think that they're going to get ill again.
Someone taking medication for mental health problems stops taking their meds early. Why? Because they feel better. They do not think they are going to get ill again.
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Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
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I found a post that bothered me, so I posted 
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Sometimes people are in the dark about mental illness and don't care to learn about it, but then go on to form an opinion. I'm all for opinions, but for the informed kind. 
