RE: Salvation and Catholicism

RE: Salvation and Catholicism (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Salvation Issues

Message

thematrix -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/2/2005 2:35:58 PM)
The matrix movie has no bearing on my beliefs or the Word of God. It is a movie, not real life. However, I found that it was interesting much like Star Wars and Indiana Jones. They tried to use biblical elements in creating the movie.

nowimfound -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/2/2005 6:22:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thematrix I am not Lutheran. My mother goes to a Lutheran bible study, where they do not push all Lutheran doctrine at her. However, I did make my mother aware that Lutheran baptism, much like Catholic baptism is unbiblical because they use is as a part of salvation concerning original sin. Not merely for dedication (unbiblical) of a child as some claim. Not all Lutheran churches may believe that unbiblical teaching about infant baptism. Matrix, (For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to assume that you are male. Forgive me if you are not) I suspect that your father called you his son long before you were able to declare (or confess) him to be your dad. His (your human father's) constancy in calling you his, I suspect played no small part in the development of your identity as the son of (whatever your father's name is). Baptism needs to be understood in a similar fashion. Jesus commanded baptism as part of the process of making disciples. Jesus commanded established disciples to baptize those being made disciples. Somehow, this has gotten twisted around to be understood that established unbaptized disciples are supposed to seek / request baptism when they reach a certain capability to make a confession of faith. This shifting of responsibility from the established disciples to baptize newbie disciples to newbie disciples initiating being baptized is totally without biblical support--and yet it is emotionally declared by ever so many. In Baptism, God is calling you his child in much the same way as your biological father called you his child. He does so well before you can appreciate the significance of being His. In the case of an infant, he does so well before the infant can appreciate the significance of even being someones biological child. You should not discard the importance of this declaration and change of relationship upon the development of faith. Who or what would you be if your biological father never claimed you as his or waited for you first to declare him to be your father before he'd ever called you his son? You would think him a cold and heartless man if your confession of him was a prerequiste to his calling you his son. Our God is not that way. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. While we were yet unable to call upon him, He in Baptism called us his own. Until you understand this aspect of Baptism--that God is the actor and we are the recipients-- I fear you've missed the point of Baptism entirely. Grace and Peace, NIF

GoodME -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/2/2005 7:03:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe I don't believe the last pope was saved, and I make that judgment on the same basis I don't believe those who teach and hold doctrines that are against God are saved... I say that understanding that the pope claimed Christ, yet that doesn't mean much when you are neck deep in idolatry and doctrines that end up actually deny Christ... Just because someone is religious it doesn't mean they are of God, and or saved... Muslims are very religious, yet they are doomed, even if the last pope and his church believe they worship the same god together... Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit. That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's. If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith? In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith.

nowimfound -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/2/2005 9:45:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe I don't believe the last pope was saved, and I make that judgment on the same basis I don't believe those who teach and hold doctrines that are against God are saved... I say that understanding that the pope claimed Christ, yet that doesn't mean much when you are neck deep in idolatry and doctrines that end up actually deny Christ... Just because someone is religious it doesn't mean they are of God, and or saved... Muslims are very religious, yet they are doomed, even if the last pope and his church believe they worship the same god together... Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit. That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's. If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith? In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith. I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple. Grace and Peace, NIF

sdaw -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 7:03:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nowimfound quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe I don't believe the last pope was saved, and I make that judgment on the same basis I don't believe those who teach and hold doctrines that are against God are saved... I say that understanding that the pope claimed Christ, yet that doesn't mean much when you are neck deep in idolatry and doctrines that end up actually deny Christ... Just because someone is religious it doesn't mean they are of God, and or saved... Muslims are very religious, yet they are doomed, even if the last pope and his church believe they worship the same god together... Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit. That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's. If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith? In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith. I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple. Grace and Peace, NIF Dear NIF, Unless my bifocals are out of whack, didn't GoodMe talk about John Paul II putting his Faith first? On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

nowimfound -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 7:28:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit. That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's. If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith? In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith. Dear NIF, Unless my bifocals are out of whack, didn't GoodMe talk about John Paul II putting his Faith first? On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints! SDAW, These are the things that GoodMe talked about: gives up having a family and a personal agenda serve God and the Church taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit we should all put Faith first in our lives like that a great example of a strong Faith aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith Do you see in these any mention of depending upon Christ and what He has done to atone for our sins? Pick any one phrase from the post that speaks to this highlight it for us. This is a forum about Salvation and Catholisim not about the many fine works of JP II. By his works, JP II will not be saved. The unfortunate fact is, if JP II is saved, GoodMe didn't say why. That is one reason why Prots question C teachings about salvation. Truthfully, how can I tell from GoodMe's post that he or she has a solid grasp of the way of salvation? Grace and Peace, NIF

meep meep -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/3/2005 8:53:07 AM)
"I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple. " Salvation is ONLY throught the Grace of Jesus Christ. It is faith in the person of that salvific act which impels us to live a life of service, devotion and love of one for the other. These are the "works" commanded by Christ Himself and without which our faith is dead. A dead faith is no good at all. But, beyond that what we DO with what we have in this life has EVERYTHING to do with how we "fair eternally". Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master? The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works". Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation. There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation. Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone". The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God. There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is not saving faith. Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us. IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands. Peter do you love me? Yes Lord. Feed my lambs. Peter do you love me? Yes Lord. Feed my lambs Peter do you love me? Yes Lord, you know* I love you.* Feed my sheep. If you have truly loved and served God in this life, then I fully expect to chat with you in the next. Regards, Meep meep

afroshaman -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/3/2005 11:54:56 AM)
I grew up in a southern baptist environment, but am slowly coming to the realization that Catholicism might offer a healthier view of salvation than many of those in Protestant circles present. Protestants tend to emphasize the fact that it is only through Grace that we are saved (and Catholics hold this as well) and put much weight on the fallen state of man, the problem of evil in the world. But Catholicism continually reminds us that just as there is a problem of evil there too is a 'problem' of good. Jesus' image of the Vine and the Branches is extremely helpful in presenting a healthy view of ourselves and the world, not merely as fallen and evil but as good too. The Protestants emphasize that it is only through the Vine that the Branches can bear fruit, whereas the Catholics reply is this: It is true that it is through the Vine that the Branches bear fruit, but can you imagine a grapevine without any grapes? This seems to me to be a much more balanced approach to Grace than that which is often taught in Protestant churches. The image of the Church as the Bride of Christ also presents an interesting picture of God's relationship the the Church and vice-versa, as marriage is a partnership, a mutual endeavor between two 'people'. The Protestant interpretation of God's grace makes the Bride, the Church, to be passive receivers of said Grace, whereas with Catholicism, the Bride is an active member of the marriage. Catholicism presents us with an image of God who considers human decisions and events as important, a God who makes beautiful use these human decisions and events, making redemption a gradual process rather than happening all in one lump as with Protestants, making our everyday lives ever more meaningful. The Bride is not to be a passive receiver of Grace, but an active participant through Christ in this glorious marriage! Who can conceive of a grapevine without grapes?!

sdaw -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 12:12:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nowimfound quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit. That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's. If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith? In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith. Dear NIF, Unless my bifocals are out of whack, didn't GoodMe talk about John Paul II putting his Faith first? On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints! SDAW, These are the things that GoodMe talked about: gives up having a family and a personal agenda serve God and the Church taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit we should all put Faith first in our lives like that a great example of a strong Faith aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith Do you see in these any mention of depending upon Christ and what He has done to atone for our sins? Pick any one phrase from the post that speaks to this highlight it for us. This is a forum about Salvation and Catholisim not about the many fine works of JP II. By his works, JP II will not be saved. The unfortunate fact is, if JP II is saved, GoodMe didn't say why. That is one reason why Prots question C teachings about salvation. Truthfully, how can I tell from GoodMe's post that he or she has a solid grasp of the way of salvation? Grace and Peace, NIF Dear NIF, Didn't GoodMe say "we should all put Faith first in our lives like that?" He offered evidences of faith, not a definition. On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

sadiebelle -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 12:20:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nowimfound quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe I don't believe the last pope was saved, and I make that judgment on the same basis I don't believe those who teach and hold doctrines that are against God are saved... I say that understanding that the pope claimed Christ, yet that doesn't mean much when you are neck deep in idolatry and doctrines that end up actually deny Christ... Just because someone is religious it doesn't mean they are of God, and or saved... Muslims are very religious, yet they are doomed, even if the last pope and his church believe they worship the same god together... Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit. That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's. If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith? In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith. I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple. Grace and Peace, NIF You do know that Scripture about God using the same measuring stick on you that you use on others, right?

nowimfound -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 2:17:47 PM)
quote: You do know that Scripture about God using the same measuring stick on you that you use on others, right? Indeed I am! I am guilty of sinning against all of the commandments. If I had to depend upon my works, I would be without hope. Thanks be to God, that he sent his Son to take upon himself the punishement that I deserved and by his wounds, I am healed. Grace and Peace, NIF

bekalc -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 7:11:42 PM)
Okay, let me put it to you this way. Scripture says you can lose your salvation, over and over again. No where does it say a prayer and you will be saved, and hey you can do whaterver you want you'll still be saved. No, when Peter was asked what must we do to be saved Peter said : Believe and be baptized. So, they believed, but did something outward to show their believe. People were also told to repent, change their actions. Paul himself states that Faith without love is nothing. So, i.e saying you have faith in Christ but not loving your neighbor, which is what James is discussing, means you have dead faith, and so you according to James are not Saved. Jesus also said: If you love me keep my commandments. The whole weight of scripture says that no one can say they have faith in Christ, but then choose to actively disobey Christ. Now, of course we as Christians sins, but a real Christian will repent of those actions and at least attempt to change thier life because they love God. If you don't repent, your not a Christian. This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The main issue between Luther and the Catholic Church was the issue of human response. The Catholics agree that salvation starts out with faith alone, and that it is from the grace of God alone. But, their issue was that there must be some form of human response. They heavily reject the doctrine of predestination, which says basically God chooses some and rejects others. That makes God the devil, and it baasically means He chooses to send people to hell. God says that he desires all people to come to him. It talks about seeking God and finding Him. Now, according to the Catholic Church, the person is only able to respond to God becuase God's grace gave the human the ability to respond. Free will so it is in no way the person's own betterness that lets them respond. Now, the relationship between this is a major mystery and its really hard to explain and understand without falling into some heresy. But we know that there must be some form of cooperation, no matter how mysterious.. But the cooperation has to be understood that its only through the grace of God. I think the best way to describe it is this: Humans would never seek God in and of themselves, God seeks them and calls them. God calls everyone, desires everyone. If you are seeking God it is because God has been calling him, and his Spirit is pulling at your heart. This call somehow in some meaningful way gives you the chance opportunity to respond to God. But, there must be some response on the person. But, you wouldn't even respond it if weren't for God's grace giving you the ability to respond in the first place. A Catholic is told Faith and Works because they want to make it clear to the Catholic that its not just a merly verbal belief or assent. You have to respond to God in your life. You have to make an effort to be obediant to Him. You have a choice in the matter. And saying I believe but disobeying makes you not a Christian. However, I was told in Catholic school that Faith is the most important thing, and really the only thing we as Christians can do is their best. Yes, you screw up, but you can repent. (and when someone commits a mortal sin, they freely choose to reject God and put themselves in Hell. (Its only a mortal sin if you know before you do it that you are committing a mortal sin, and of your own free will do so. It's a free choice.) But, God loves you and at any time you can repent! And need to live a life of repentence. So, you see Catholic doctrine does not tell Catholics: You must earn your salvation. It admits that Catholics sin, it tells them your not perfect, and you will mess up and if you repent God will forgive you. But it also freely tells Catholics that you cannot say a prayer and life a sinful life tommorrow. There are a lot of Protestants who ignore the scripture verses that talk about obeying God, and keeping his commandments. This kind of attitude is cheap grace not real grace. I want to point out something about the person said to the mom at the Lutheran Church about baptism. If a person hated God and decided to be baptized then obviously the baptism doesn't counts. It's just water then...Even the Catholic church teaches their can be an ipediment. But the Bible itself puts baptism right up there with salvation. Christ said to make disicples and baptize them, Peter said believe and be baptized! There was no altar call. People showed their belief in Christ by being baptized. So baptism because its a commandment is incredibly important because God makes it that way.

meep meep -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 7:19:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nowimfound quote: You do know that Scripture about God using the same measuring stick on you that you use on others, right? Indeed I am! I am guilty of sinning against all of the commandments. If I had to depend upon my works, I would be without hope. Thanks be to God, that he sent his Son to take upon himself the punishement that I deserved and by his wounds, I am healed. Grace and Peace, NIF You mix in your melange, the difference between the complete and sublime salvific work of God and His love expressed through His Son Christ - something which is immutable - with your own sinfulness. God's salvation never changes but IF we accept that act then we must change, not merely assent, admit sinfulness, claim absolution and continue as before. Where is one "working out" one's salvation if one admits the sin and continues to indulge in it - simply because actions and behaviors in seeking to serve God are seen as "works". Where's the power? Where's the fruit? Meep

nowimfound -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/3/2005 7:21:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meep meep Salvation is ONLY throught the Grace of Jesus Christ. It is faith in the person of that salvific act which impels us to live a life of service, devotion and love of one for the other. These are the "works" commanded by Christ Himself and without which our faith is dead. True Faith is not the only thing that can impel an individual to a life of service as the life of Paul prior to his conversion so clearly demonstrates. quote: A dead faith is no good at all. So what is your point? That has absolutely nothing to do with what has been stated. No one has accused JP II of having a dead faith. It has simply been pointed out that JP II's works are no guarantee that he was saved. quote: But, beyond that what we DO with what we have in this life has EVERYTHING to do with how we "fair eternally". "Fair eternally" was a poor choice of words on my part. What we DO has absolutely nothing to do with our being justified before God. What we do in this life as nothing to do with your being declared righteous by God. quote: Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master? The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works". Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation. There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation. Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone". The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God. And this is where you are simply in error. People do undertake lives of service for other reasons than God's glory. No one has said the JP II did so. His works simply are not definitive proof of his being saved. quote: There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ. This must be a Catholic bible addition, because I can find nowhere that someone who is a believer is Christ ends up being surprised and cast out of the presence of God because they did not do the works commanded by Christ. Where do you find this? quote: Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is not saving faith. And works are not an automatic indication of saving faith. Take JW's as an example. They will provide you with hundreds of examples of service and charitable workds. quote: Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us. There is no "unless" in the Biblical formula of salvation. There are no verses that make salvation dependent upon the performance of works. There are only verses that speak to the relationship of works to true faith. quote: IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands. I have no disagreement with this. I'm simply pointing out that just because someone appears to do the commands of God does not mean the person is saved. SO tell me, does the Catholic Church teach a Works based plan of salvation or not? How do you understand it? How many works do you need to perform in order to be saved? Grace and Peace, NIF

nowimfound -> RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there (5/3/2005 7:35:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meep meep You mix in your melange, the difference between the complete and sublime salvific work of God and His love expressed through His Son Christ - something which is immutable - with your own sinfulness. Huh? I'm mixing what with who and where? quote: God's salvation never changes but IF we accept that act then we must change, not merely assent, admit sinfulness, claim absolution and continue as before. When did I ever claim otherwise? I have not. quote: Where is one "working out" one's salvation if one admits the sin and continues to indulge in it - simply because actions and behaviors in seeking to serve God are seen as "works". Who said anything about continuing to indulge in sin? I didn't. Are you changing topics here? Come back to the topic at hand. Do Catholiics teach that their works in some way justify them before God? If so, where is this taught? Actions and behaviors are works. quote: Where's the power? Where's the fruit? Scripture clearly teaches that Faith expresses itself through love. It also clearly teaches that Faith justifies before God. You error when draw a connection between these two and claim that love justifies before God. This is not taught in Scripture. Grace and Peace, NIF

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/3/2005 8:01:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nowimfound quote: ORIGINAL: meep meep Salvation is ONLY throught the Grace of Jesus Christ. It is faith in the person of that salvific act which impels us to live a life of service, devotion and love of one for the other. These are the "works" commanded by Christ Himself and without which our faith is dead. True Faith is not the only thing that can impel an individual to a life of service as the life of Paul prior to his conversion so clearly demonstrates. quote: A dead faith is no good at all. So what is your point? That has absolutely nothing to do with what has been stated. No one has accused JP II of having a dead faith. It has simply been pointed out that JP II's works are no guarantee that he was saved. quote: But, beyond that what we DO with what we have in this life has EVERYTHING to do with how we "fair eternally". "Fair eternally" was a poor choice of words on my part. What we DO has absolutely nothing to do with our being justified before God. What we do in this life as nothing to do with your being declared righteous by God. quote: Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master? The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works". Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation. There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation. Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone". The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God. And this is where you are simply in error. People do undertake lives of service for other reasons than God's glory. No one has said the JP II did so. His works simply are not definitive proof of his being saved. quote: There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ. This must be a Catholic bible addition, because I can find nowhere that someone who is a believer is Christ ends up being surprised and cast out of the presence of God because they did not do the works commanded by Christ. Where do you find this? quote: Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is not saving faith. And works are not an automatic indication of saving faith. Take JW's as an example. They will provide you with hundreds of examples of service and charitable workds. quote: Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us. There is no "unless" in the Biblical formula of salvation. There are no verses that make salvation dependent upon the performance of works. There are only verses that speak to the relationship of works to true faith. quote: IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands. I have no disagreement with this. I'm simply pointing out that just because someone appears to do the commands of God does not mean the person is saved. SO tell me, does the Catholic Church teach a Works based plan of salvation or not? How do you understand it? How many works do you need to perform in order to be saved? Grace and Peace, NIF Dear NIF, The late John Paul II would say, as a good Catholic, that he was justified by Faith. No one is justified by works. But I would say that a minimum of two works is required. Believe. repent. I'll give it some more thought. On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

nowimfound -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/3/2005 8:20:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw Dear NIF, The late John Paul II would say, as a good Catholic, that he was justified by Faith. No one is justified by works. But I would say that a minimum of two works is required. Believe. repent. I'll give it some more thought. On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints! Indeed, I've read much of what you have written and I think you speak well the Catholic understanding of Salvation. I have no dispute with what you have said except I would not call belief and repentance works since both are gifts of God. Grace and Peace, NIF

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/4/2005 7:05:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nowimfound quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw Dear NIF, The late John Paul II would say, as a good Catholic, that he was justified by Faith. No one is justified by works. But I would say that a minimum of two works is required. Believe. repent. I'll give it some more thought. On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints! Indeed, I've read much of what you have written and I think you speak well the Catholic understanding of Salvation. I have no dispute with what you have said except I would not call belief and repentance works since both are gifts of God. Grace and Peace, NIF Dear NIF, I understand your not wanting to call belief and repentance works since both are gifts of God. I would call them works because, regardless of their origin, they do require an act of the will on the part of the believer. This should not be understood as negating the work of God in the case of the baptism of infants. All supernatural works have the grace of God as their first cause. Therefore, as Paul said, we have no cause to boast, or to think our works obligate God to anything. On the Feast of St. Florian Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

meep meep -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/4/2005 9:33:17 AM)
�True Faith is not the only thing that can impel an individual to a life of service as the life of Paul prior to his conversion so clearly demonstrates. � Would you be so kind as to give us your definition of �true faith?� Please, also tell me what is the scriptural model for �true faith� (as opposed to �un� true faith.) ��a life of service�?� Since when does murder, judgment and persecution of others ( Christian or otherwise) �clearly� demonstrate a life of service to God? Remember Cornelius? (Acts 10) What could have moved him to almsgiving and good works? Was he �saved� before Peter came to him (and his household) and preached the Gospel? �So what is your point? That has absolutely nothing to do with what has been stated. No one has accused JP II of having a dead faith. It has simply been pointed out that JP II's works are no guarantee that he was saved. � There IS no guarantee. What we have is an expectation of salvation. It is called �faith� because we don�t really know until the very end when we are judged. In the meantime, we live as we have been commanded, and while JPII�s works are no guarantee � they are manifestations of his profession of faith and belief. Faith without works is dead. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Connect the dots. "Fair eternally" was a poor choice of words on my part. What we DO has absolutely nothing to do with our being justified before God. What we do in this life as nothing to do with your being declared righteous by God. � Our salvation is only through Grace. But what we do has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not we take that freely given salvation and appropriate it for ourselves. What are you here for? What is the reason for your existence here? WHEN are you declared righteous? When is that �magic� moment? quote: Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master? The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works". Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation. There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation. Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone". The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God. �And this is where you are simply in error. People do undertake lives of service for other reasons than God's glory. No one has said the JP II did so. His works simply are not definitive proof of his being saved.� What do you consider �definitive� proof, i.e. such that would satisfy you, since we cannot read a person�s heart. �People� may undertake lives of service for reasons other than God�s glory because they may not know God � but God has written that good on their hearts. But we were talking about someone who spent his entire productive life declaring the Gospel, guarding the faith, putting his life on the line in more than one instance, living the message of Christ in denying self � all of these are reasonable signs and fruit that God is operating in a person�s life. I leave the authenticity of a person�s salvation and definitive proof to God. quote: There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ. �This must be a Catholic bible addition, because I can find nowhere that someone who is a believer is Christ ends up being surprised and cast out of the presence of God because they did not do the works commanded by Christ. Where do you find this? � I�m sorry�I thought ALL Bibles contained Matthew chapter 25. Perhaps you could get a �Catholic� Bible and start reading about halfway through the chapter. Of course, it�s possible it, too, was removed from non �Catholic� bibles since it contradicted newly developed doctrine. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is not saving faith. �And works are not an automatic indication of saving faith. Take JW's as an example. They will provide you with hundreds of examples of service and charitable workds. � While I do not endorse the JW doctrines, who are you to say who God will choose to be damned? Reconsider the example of Cornelius. quote: Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us. �There is no "unless" in the Biblical formula of salvation. � There IS no �biblical formula� - God is Spirit and he does not follow �formulas� let alone those made by man � whatever it is that you�re saying means. �There are no verses that make salvation dependent upon the performance of works. There are only verses that speak to the relationship of works to true faith. � Our salvation is ONLY by God�s Grace through faith. One may have received the free gift of salvation through Grace but it operates in our lives � from the beginning- through faith. Scripture tells us faith without works is dead. If it is a dead faith then God�s saving Grace does not/cannot operate in our lives. When Jesus commands those who failed to do the works of mercy in Matthew 25 to depart from him, was he sending them to summer camp or were they being condemned to perdition? Read Jesus� words carefully, His commands to do �works� are quite instructive. quote: IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands. �I have no disagreement with this. I'm simply pointing out that just because someone appears to do the commands of God does not mean the person is saved. Neither does a recitation of a �sinners� prayer mean one is saved. �SO tell me, does the Catholic Church teach a Works based plan of salvation or not? How do you understand it? How many works do you need to perform in order to be saved? � The Catholic Church teaches that we are �saved� by God�s GRACE through faith, and that faith is manifested and our salvation accomplished by serving and loving our fellow man as commanded by our Lord Himself. In this way we love and serve God in this world so that we may spend eternity with Him in the next. Is that formulaic enough for you? How many works? I don�t know. How much of our lives can we give to God? The more we strive to love and please God � the more we allow His will to be done in us and through us, the more Grace fills us and the closer we come to being Christ-like � the measure of true salvation. Like Paul the Apostle we strive daily, we run the race so that we may finish as victors. In Christ, Meep meep

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/4/2005 11:35:40 PM)
quote: I've read through your posts and the answers that have provided so I'll try not to rehash what has already more than aptly been posted. I gather from your comments that you profess to be a follower of Christ - thus, I must take you at your word, although I am unable to see what fruits you bear, given the medium we use to communicate. Speaking out against the pope and his church is bearing fruit were I'm from.... quote: However, you apparently choose to ignore parts of scripture that are not to your liking. You may want to read, once again Romans chapter 10. Specifically, you might want to focus on verses 6 and 7 although the whole chapter is instructive. You should consider Matthew 7:21.... quote: I never heard JPII deny Christ. On the contrary, had you read ANYTHING he wrote without that big fat beam in your eye[:D] you would see the exact opposite; AND, we have his fruits as a pretty good indication of who he served. Of course you removed YOUR own beam prior to posting this?(That's always the problem with using the beam verse...) Btw, what fruits are you speaking of? quote: YET, only God knows his heart, only God knows whether or not he will continue to serve in heaven. If people can judged the pope to be saved, it's hypocritical to say it's wrong to judge otherwise... Either we all remain silent on the matter, or it's ok to judge one way or the other... quote: But let's concede, for purposes of supporting your position, that JPII could not be saved by virtue of the "worship" with Muslims. That statement is calumny and I would think that is a sin. Vatican II But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they worship the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day The above is 100% heresy.... quote: Unless of course one confuses dialogue with worship - they are quite different - honest - and the scriptures do not prohibit dialogue ("Come let us REASON together saith the Lord" - and if GOD can dialogue and reason with man - who is an abject sinner - then we as 'christians" can dialogue and reason with those who are not). How big a shoehorn will it take to exchange worhip with dialogue in the following statement... Vatican II But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they worship the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day Btw, there are also writings speaking of Buddhist and others like them somehow finding God in their quest for the truth... quote: As to Muslims, a perfunctory review of history can show that they are not all enemies of Christ. In fact, if you look at early "Spanish" history[ among others] you will see that there were Muslim Kings who banded together to save Christian Spain from the Moors; and that is not a unique example of a positive alliance. Of course the above has nothing to do with the fact that Muslims do not worship God, but something made up in their minds they believe to be God... Gee.... A Muslims helped an old lady across the street, let's join in prayer with them to Allah? Of course in this picture Christ is nowhere to be found... quote: JPII was a consummate leader who understood the kulturkampf of the times; who sought peace, even with Muslims; who sought to spread the Gospel of Christ - even to Muslims; and who sought to appease and protect those Christians who were minorities in Muslim ruled lands. Like Saddam's pal Tariq Aziz (who met with the John Paul II)who helped shred human beings in a plastic shredders? What type of Gospel is spread by such types of Chrisitains? quote: It is one thing, brother, to have clear understanding and differences with the RCC and to discuss them cogently. The comments, presented here, have neither. There is also a difference, in ANY denomination between teaching and practice. Look at the true teachings of the Catholic Church and you will see how worship of Mary has been dissuaded. Prayerfully, and thoughtfully consider the difference between honor and esteem (even of a high degree) and "worship". Just because I don't wish to find some happy place with those who follow the pope doesn't make what I have to say not clear... I have considered it, and it's a cover... It's don't look at what we do, just believe what we say... quote: The Catholic Church does not teach nor advocate "worship" of Mary, nor "worship" with Muslims. Such generalized statements appear as nothing more than sanctified bigotry, using "scriptural" support and yet undermining the very scriptures purported to be Holy and foundational. Sure it does... Vatican II But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they worship the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son, as the most holy mother of God who was involved in the mysteries of Christ: she is rightly honored by a special cult in the Church In the meantime the Mother of Jesus in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth, until the day of the Lord shall come a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God. Because of this gift of sublime grace she far surpasses all creatures, both in heaven and on earth. But, being of the race of Adam, she is at the same time also united to all those who are to be saved; indeed, "she is clearly the mother of the members of Christ quote: It's really quite simple. If you go back to the very beginning and read the historical documents[those used to support the authenticity of scripture as well] you will soon see the genesis of the Catholic teaching (Christ) how his Apostles understood it and passed it down (via the Holy Spirit) and how the Church emerged and preserved those teachings in tact. Really... I'm not aware the Apostle were into idolatry, or that they gave all that much attention to Mary, or spoke of worshipping with pagans some form of a god... quote: The test of whether the truth in a given church was authentic was (and remains) whether or not it was founded by an Apostle, a disciple trained and APPROVED by an Apostle, and one trained and approved by him, and so on. Given who they were and how they lived I don't see much likeness to the Apostles and those who sit on some earthly throne playing God and claiming to be inline with those who gave up everything... quote: I suggest more prayerful study of Catholic teaching before your render your"judgments" on it's teaching and leaders. Sorry, simply because we don't agree doesn't equate to me not knowing the score, and if you wish we can discuss in length anytime the lessons taught by the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church and how is hid priests it knew raped children... For the record I direct that comment at the leadership, not the priests... John

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/5/2005 6:07:42 AM)
Dear John, From Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium": "16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention." If you think that the Church is soft on the idea of Christ as the sole means of Salvation, you have clearly not understood what you have been reading. On the Feast of the Ascension Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/8/2005 10:12:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw Dear John, From Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium": "16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention." If you think that the Church is soft on the idea of Christ as the sole means of Salvation, you have clearly not understood what you have been reading. The Roman Catholic Church says it worship and shares the same god (together with)as do the Muslims> Last I checked that god doesn't have a son named Jesus Christ, and the bible is clear that those who don't honor the Son, don't Honor the Father... I don't believe God looks the other way when the RCC worship together with Muslims, and then out of the corner of the other side of its mouth it mentions Christ... Of course Mary, and ever growing number of church delcared saints get their mention as well... Bottom line, there isn't just a god before God, there is a ever growing list of gods before God in this equation and God is surely a jealous one... Btw, read that writing and consider that when it says , "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans" reflect on who all things were created through... That statement is a denial of the Trinity... Muslims don't believe in God, Christ and or the Holy Spirit... You can't one, and not the others... To claim that Muslim acknowledge, worship or whatever is actually cruelty, and not done in any form of love, since promoting a lie cannot be done in the name of Jesus Christ. John

meep meep -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/8/2005 5:28:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw From Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium": "16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention." If you think that the Church is soft on the idea of Christ as the sole means of Salvation, you have clearly not understood what you have been reading. The Roman Catholic Church says it worship and shares the same god (together with)as do the Muslims> Last I checked that god doesn't have a son named Jesus Christ, and the bible is clear that those who don't honor the Son, don't Honor the Father... I don't believe God looks the other way when the RCC worship together with Muslims, and then out of the corner of the other side of its mouth it mentions Christ... Of course Mary, and ever growing number of church delcared saints get their mention as well... Bottom line, there isn't just a god before God, there is a ever growing list of gods before God in this equation and God is surely a jealous one... Dear John: Before anything you should probably go back and STUDY the geneology of the Semites ( it's in scripture, not the Catechism). Then study the emergence of the Jewish faith and how God called out a PAGAN to entrust His covenant of salvation. Do you believe there is ONE Almighty GOD, the Creator of ALL that is seen and unseen? Or do you believe that each religion, or philosophy has it's own God which it worships? Is the god worshipped by Islam a different being or entitity, or did the same God create us all. Read your Bible CAREFULLY, prayerfully and with a heart and mind open to the Holy Spirit. Now IF only ONE God exists and he created all of us, then the scriptures OT/NT say that ALL of us (as sinners, and who have chosen to go our own way) are included in God's plan of salvation. Either that is true or God or the scriptures - or both - are lies. IF there is only ONE Creator and ONE God who made us ALL then as scripture says, His law and knowledge of Him is written on each of our hearts. Scripture also tells us that if we seek Him we shall find Him (at this point re-read the last post on Vatican I, above). This does not mean that ALL of us are at the same place in seeking and finding and understanding the revelation of God in Christ - not even those of us professing to be Bible believing Christians (for many of us know the words and the actions but not the person). Read Acts 10(stated once again) Who was Cornelius worshipping before Peter preached the plan of Salvation to him? Did God abandon him because he did not know Christ? Was not the law written on his heart? Was it wrong for Peter to come and sup and pray and finally preach to him being as he was ( and his household)? No matter, you try to twist the meaning of the Catechism. We worship the ONE Creator and as such, we strive to bring those who are INCLUDED in the plan of salvation to the saving knowledge and understanding of Christ. [Read Paul's speech in Acts regarding the "unknown" God which was worshipped by the 'greeks'] It does not mean we have communion with Muslims, or others. It means we recognize the innate Holiness of GOD placed on their hearts and towards which they strive to know God. Some are "holy" men (like Cornelius) others profess their faiths but don't live them - even as we Christians do - because we are all sinners. To "worship" with them means that we have the same object of worship. Our thoughts and our prayers are directed to the ultimate "ground of Being" [to use Paul Tillich's term] - they do not, however, have the saving knowledge of Christ. The Mother Church (yes, yours as well whether you accept it or not) welcomes all to it's bosom knowing it holds a treasure in jars of clay, a treasure that through love, respect, and understanding (contrary to times and places past) it seeks to share with those who understand and worship God differently. Btw, read that writing and consider that when it says , "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans" reflect on who all things were created through... That statement is a denial of the Trinity... Muslims don't believe in God, Christ and or the Holy Spirit... Where do you read that into that statement? EVEN sinners - the most reprobate person you can imagine - is in God's plan of salvation. Remember, Jesus said to preach the Gospel to ALL; he died for ALL men - not only for those who believe in the Trinity. You can't one, and not the others... To claim that Muslim acknowledge, worship or whatever is actually cruelty, and not done in any form of love, since promoting a lie cannot be done in the name of Jesus Christ. Uou are certainly welcome to your opinion, but since you are speaking of lies and Christ, perhaps you may consider your comments more carefully, as they SEEM to smear others - which is patently unscriptural. God Bless you John, Meep meep

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/8/2005 7:38:50 PM)
quote: Before anything you should probably go back and STUDY the geneology of the Semites ( it's in scripture, not the Catechism). Then study the emergence of the Jewish faith and how God called out a PAGAN to entrust His covenant of salvation. God's sovereign choice of Abraham means what in regards to people worshipping false gods, and the supposed "church" giving them gold star for doing so? quote: Do you believe there is ONE Almighty GOD, the Creator of ALL that is seen and unseen? Only if it's the God spoken of in the bible, and Christ and the Holy Spirit are included... Anything less is a FALSE GOD... quote: Or do you believe that each religion, or philosophy has it's own God which it worships? You mean its own god, correct? quote: Is the god worshipped by Islam a different being or entitity, or did the same God create us all. Read your Bible CAREFULLY, prayerfully and with a heart and mind open to the Holy Spirit. They DO NOT worship God... quote: Now IF only ONE God exists and he created all of us, then the scriptures OT/NT say that ALL of us (as sinners, and who have chosen to go our own way) are included in God's plan of salvation. Either that is true or God or the scriptures - or both - are lies. Oh please... Your doctrine doesn't even hold that all are sinners... And the problem isn't in the fact that God can save anyone if He so chooses, but the fact that the Roman Catholic Church promotes false gods, and worship to them.... quote: IF there is only ONE Creator and ONE God who made us ALL then as scripture says, His law and knowledge of Him is written on each of our hearts. Scripture also tells us that if we seek Him we shall find Him (at this point re-read the last post on Vatican I, above). The fact that God(Only if it's the God spoken of in the bible, and Christ and the Holy Spirit are included) created all things doesn't equate to everyone worshipping Him when they offer up prayes to whom or whatever they make up in their vain mind... You seem to be implying that false worship never takes place, nor can it... quote: This does not mean that ALL of us are at the same place in seeking and finding and understanding the revelation of God in Christ - not even those of us professing to be Bible believing Christians (for many of us know the words and the actions but not the person). Read Acts 10(stated once again) Who was Cornelius worshipping before Peter preached the plan of Salvation to him? The bible(God's word) says he feared and prayed to God... Can you produce scripture that say Muslims are worshipping God? No... quote: Did God abandon him because he did not know Christ? Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. Since the bible speaks of Cornelius actually fearing God, praying to God I will ask you to explain how this transfers over to Muslims. It can be shown/argued that Cornelius was led by the Spirit, yet the same cannot be said about Muslims who honor their god... quote: No matter, you try to twist the meaning of the Catechism. We worship the ONE Creator and as such, we strive to bring those who are INCLUDED in the plan of salvation to the saving knowledge and understanding of Christ. [Read Paul's speech in Acts regarding the "unknown" God which was worshipped by the 'greeks'] Like the part where God will no longer look past idol worship and or worship to false gods? Telling Muslims they worship God(when they really don�t) isn't calling on them to repent; it's encouraging them to sin.... quote: It does not mean we have communion with Muslims, or others. It means we recognize the innate Holiness of GOD placed on their hearts and towards which they strive to know God. Being that the ONLY way to the Father is through the Son the only thing Muslims are doing is striving to heap coals on their own heads... quote: Some are "holy" men (like Cornelius) others profess their faiths but don't live them - even as we Christians do - because we are all sinners. What "faiths" are you refering to? Btw, Cornelius was said to fear God, and pray to God, not one of his own vain mind as do Muslims... quote: To "worship" with them means that we have the same object of worship. Our thoughts and our prayers are directed to the ultimate "ground of Being" [to use Paul Tillich's term] - they do not, however, have the saving knowledge of Christ. The "object" the Muslims worship isn't complete, isn't God and those who worship and with them are worshipping a false god... Not only do they not have the saving <cough> knowledge of Christ they beg for God's wrath with their pagan ways and false worship, both of which are fully supported by the Roman Catholic Church... quote: The Mother Church (yes, yours as well whether you accept it or not) welcomes all to it's bosom knowing it holds a treasure in jars of clay, a treasure that through love, respect, and understanding (contrary to times and places past) it seeks to share with those who understand and worship God differently For the record I don't accept it, and I believe the Roman Catholic Church is led by the anti-Christ... quote: Where do you read that into that statement? EVEN sinners - the most reprobate person you can imagine - is in God's plan of salvation. Remember, Jesus said to preach the Gospel to ALL; he died for ALL men - not only for those who believe in the Trinity. The Gospel is preached to all to draw out God's people(whomever they may be), and Christ died for those given to Him by the Father... Not all are sheep... quote: Uou are certainly welcome to your opinion, but since you are speaking of lies and Christ, perhaps you may consider your comments more carefully, as they SEEM to smear others - which is patently unscriptural. Pointing out false doctrine is hardly "patently unscriptural" John

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/8/2005 10:21:19 PM)
Dear John, All who turn God from a Person into an idea of God worship a false deity. It is not necessary to have the correct understanding of God to worship Him, witness Paul to the Athenians. On the Feast of St. Victor the Moor Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI