RE: Salvation and Catholicism

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/16/2005 7:01:12 PM)
quote: why do you doubt God and His power and HIS will? I don't doubt His, just the version the RCC attempts to sell... quote: Your comments might then be more substantive and perhaps more Christ - like. ...if they agreed with your view of things. John

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/16/2005 8:25:35 PM)
Just to restate things and get them back on topic. Regarding salvation, Catholics believe: 1. The cause of justification is grace. 2. One cannot do anything to merit justification. 3. One is justified by faith. 4. The will consents to justification. 5. The consent of the will is enabled and energized by grace. 6. The justified are enabled and energized by grace to obey God's commands. 7. Works, among other things, are God working in the life of the believer. 8. Works are not a cause of justification. 9. Those who die in a state of justification are saved. 10.God saves for His own glory. On the Feast of St. Simon Stock Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

meep meep -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/16/2005 9:11:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: why do you doubt God and His power and HIS will? I don't doubt His, just the version the RCC attempts to sell... quote: Your comments might then be more substantive and perhaps more Christ - like. ...if they agreed with your view of things. John Dear John: Christ-likeness doesn't come from me or from agreement with my views, Catholic views, Protestant views or others. It comes from knowing Christ - personally. What is Christ -likeness? It is the willingness to LOVE your enemy into the Kingdom, it is the desire to please the master by loving those who are unlovable ( to us) but those who were so precious that he gave His life, shed His Blood - which is priceless - so that they could have the Kingdom of Heaven... ...and He did this unconditionally, while we/they were/are still sinners. He didn't disrespect anybody, He never showed open disdain for what others believed - he saw the God-ness is all, even those who He confronted because He could see they were evil. Some of my dearest brothers are Non Catholics. Some are brilliant; they come from a broad spectrum of denominations. We rarely agree on doctrine, and yet I have learned tremendously from them - but most importantly, I have seen the livng Christ in their lives, their respect, their understanding, their authenticity. So, dear brother in Christ, study ( I mean REALLY study) first to show yourself approved to God, and then add to that approval by showing the love born in you through Christ. Show a Muslim the love of Christ ( the REAL genuine love of Christ) and he will be hungry to know the source of that love. Show him the respect you would want to receive - even when he is wrong - treat him as you would want to be treated - love your neighbor as yourself - THAT is correct doctrine. Finally, there is no Catholic version, it is "merely" the Apostolic teachings handed down century after century - intact. Your version is man made. A man made teaching that came along initiated by man OUTSIDE of the documented teachings of the Apostles fifteen hundred years after the fact. Learn your history, learn who founded your denomination (or lack of denomination), learn how your views developed, learn how your filters color everything you believe, learn to recognize what is sound teaching and what merely feeds dissension and division in the body of Christ. Learn what is ego and what is truly a Christian truth, learn humility, learn to love - as Christ commanded. Learn my dear brother. I promise you I am doing the same. Let you light shine before men so that seeing that light others may come to know Christ who quickens you. In Christ, Meep Meep

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (5/16/2005 9:37:19 PM)
quote: Christ-likeness doesn't come from me or from agreement with my views, Catholic views, Protestant views or others. I can say with complete confidence if I agreed with your churche's view of God and His word you wouldn't be lecturing me... quote: What is Christ -likeness? It is the willingness to LOVE your enemy into the Kingdom, it is the desire to please the master by loving those who are unlovable ( to us) but those who were so precious that he gave His life, shed His Blood - which is priceless - so that they could have the Kingdom of Heaven... Loving someone doesn't equate to having to claim they actually believe in God... Btw, God didn't and will not love all His enemies into His Kingdom... And that fact was part of His plan from the start... quote: ...and He did this unconditionally, while we/they were/are still sinners. He didn't disrespect anybody, He never showed open disdain for what others believed - he saw the God-ness is all, even those who He confronted because He could see they were evil. I think disdain would be a mild word for what Christ said about folks who He told that Satan was their father... Of course we can go through the bible and point out where God dealt with people in a swift and not so nice manner... quote: So, dear brother in Christ, study ( I mean REALLY study) first to show yourself approved to God, and then add to that approval by showing the love born in you through Christ. Study what? God's word? RCC doctrine? quote: Show a Muslim the love of Christ ( the REAL genuine love of Christ) and he will be hungry to know the source of that love. Show him the respect you would want to receive - even when he is wrong - treat him as you would want to be treated - love your neighbor as yourself - THAT is correct doctrine. Telling a Muslims he worships God is a cruel lie and it will not lead to them coming to the truth... Btw, The love of Christ is evident in creation... It's not hidden... It's out there, as His Word... quote: Finally, there is no Catholic version, it is "merely" the Apostolic teachings handed down century after century - intact. According to the... Hmmmm... Gee... The RCC.... quote: Your version is man made. A man made teaching that came along initiated by man OUTSIDE of the documented teachings of the Apostles fiftenn hundred years after he fact. Your version has to go outside of the scriptures to establish core beliefs so I wouldn't go to far with others having teaching OUTSIDE of things... quote: Learn your history, learn who founded your denomination (or lack of denomination), learn how your views developed, learn how your filters color everything you believe, learn to recognize what is sound teaching and what merely feeds dissension and division in the body of Christ. Learn what is ego and what is truly a Christian truth, learn humility, learn to love - as Christ commanded. Nice.... You claim your church is "THE CHURCH" and speak of the ego of others... Are you the kettle or the pot? John

TimL -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/27/2005 8:57:07 PM)
Hi All, Sorry to get here so late, but I have never understood something about the Protestant perspective on this issue: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, socery, emnity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissention, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21 The literal interpretation of this verse would result in how many of us attaining the Kingdom of heaven? Correct, Zip. Given the fact that we cannot ignore St. Paul's words here, after all he is one of the two most important Saints of the Catholic Church, how exactly do we interpret this verse so that it fits with either Salvation by Faith Alone, or Catholic Doctrine? God Bless You All, Tim

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/27/2005 9:29:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TimL Hi All, Sorry to get here so late, but I have never understood something about the Protestant perspective on this issue: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, socery, emnity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissention, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21 The literal interpretation of this verse would result in how many of us attaining the Kingdom of heaven? Correct, Zip. Given the fact that we cannot ignore St. Paul's words here, after all he is one of the two most important Saints of the Catholic Church, how exactly do we interpret this verse so that it fits with either Salvation by Faith Alone, or Catholic Doctrine? God Bless You All, Tim Dear Tim, It is not so much a problem of theology as it is of translation. The word translated as "do" in this verse is "prassoo". It is frequently, but not exclusively, used of actions which are not praiseworthy. It is also often used to describe habitual actions, which is the key here, I think. In the KJV, Amplified, Rheims, NAB, and NRSV translate it as "do"; the NASB as "practice", and the NIV as "live like this". Persons who practice these sins without repentance are (Protestantly) not saved in the first place, or (Catholicly) in a state of mortal sin. For the repentant, it is (Protestantly) proof of God's grace acting in the life of the saved to effect salvation, or (Catholicly) the same thing via the Sacraments. There are some Protestants who would say that once one has had a valid salvation experience, even sins for which one is unrepentant will not result in the loss of Heaven. I think they are the ones to whom this verse presents a problem. On the Feast of St. Cyril of Jerusalem Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints. Persons who habitually practice these sins

TimL -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/27/2005 11:03:43 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw quote: ORIGINAL: TimL Hi All, Sorry to get here so late, but I have never understood something about the Protestant perspective on this issue: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, socery, emnity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissention, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21 The literal interpretation of this verse would result in how many of us attaining the Kingdom of heaven? Correct, Zip. Given the fact that we cannot ignore St. Paul's words here, after all he is one of the two most important Saints of the Catholic Church, how exactly do we interpret this verse so that it fits with either Salvation by Faith Alone, or Catholic Doctrine? God Bless You All, Tim Dear Tim, It is not so much a problem of theology as it is of translation. The word translated as "do" in this verse is "prassoo". It is frequently, but not exclusively, used of actions which are not praiseworthy. It is also often used to describe habitual actions, which is the key here, I think. In the KJV, Amplified, Rheims, NAB, and NRSV translate it as "do"; the NASB as "practice", and the NIV as "live like this". Persons who practice these sins without repentance are (Protestantly) not saved in the first place, or (Catholicly) in a state of mortal sin. For the repentant, it is (Protestantly) proof of God's grace acting in the life of the saved to effect salvation, or (Catholicly) the same thing via the Sacraments. There are some Protestants who would say that once one has had a valid salvation experience, even sins for which one is unrepentant will not result in the loss of Heaven. I think they are the ones to whom this verse presents a problem. On the Feast of St. Cyril of Jerusalem Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints. Persons who habitually practice these sins Dear Sdaw, I defer to your understanding of the Catholic perspective on this verse, and am always looking for orthodox answers to my questions. Your answer fits the bill 100%. Can you imagine a person on this site allowing someone else to correctly teach teach them or to rebuke them? Does this make me a doctrinal whimp or what??? Or does this mean that I do not consider myself to be the ulitmate source of Christian Doctrine? Of course I recognized that this verse in Galatians is not all that popular among Protestants, but then, it is still included in their canon, at least for now. Somehow, I was probably, incorrectly, under the impression that Galatians was written to the Christians (already saved) population of Galatia. Sdaw, I am still at a loss as to how this verse could possibly be interpreted as supporting the Protestant doctrine of "Faith Alone". If you have any explaination for this I would appreciate your comments. If you can offer an explaination, then we can deal with the other numerous Scriptures that defy salvation by faith alone. God Bless You Sdaw, Tim

Ezra -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/28/2005 1:44:47 AM)
Those who sin habitually or "practice" sin are not genuinely saved, hence will not enter the Kingdom of God. Those who are genuinely saved are "new creatures in Christ" and do not practice sin but abhor it. If they do sin, they confess, repent and are forgiven. Confession is directly to God. So we should never confuse the "professors" (saying "Lord, Lord" with their mouths) with the "possessors" (who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and are therefore able to "walk in the Spirit") and neither should we presume to know what is actually in men's hearts: "The Lord knoweth them that are His, and let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (2 Tim. 2:19).

TimL -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/28/2005 10:17:47 AM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra Those who sin habitually or "practice" sin are not genuinely saved, hence will not enter the Kingdom of God. Dear Sdaw, The verse does not use the word habitually at all. It says if we commit these sins we will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. How do you interpret this verse to say habitually? God Bless You Sdaw, Tim

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/28/2005 8:50:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TimL quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra Those who sin habitually or "practice" sin are not genuinely saved, hence will not enter the Kingdom of God. Dear Sdaw, The verse does not use the word habitually at all. It says if we commit these sins we will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. How do you interpret this verse to say habitually? God Bless You Sdaw, Tim Dear Tim, "Prasso" can refer to an habitual action. It doesn't always. Here is the problem. Paul says that those who "do" these things will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Should we understand that to mean "one strike and your out"? Nothing is Scripture leads us to believe that these sins cannot be forgiven. It doesn't really matter whether one does them once or repeatedly. If one is unrepentant, one is lost. Justification through faith alone strikes me as being an acceptable Catholic formulation. We are not saved by faith alone, because we are not saved by faith, but rather by grace. We are not saved by works at all, nor through works except that faith precedes them. Yet we are commanded in Scripture to do God's work. So works cannot be left out of the salvation equation. A train of thought. . . The eternal security of the believer is also very tricky. Both Evangelicals and Catholics would agree that God first calls us. We are saved by His grace. We remain in a state of grace/justification only by grace. Here we have to start thinking about what the words actually mean. Grace is God's favor. Grace is a participation in relationship with God. Justification is a state of rightstanding with God. Will God ever totally and permanently withdraw His favor from us short of the eternal flames? If so, repentence would no longer be possible. Can we stop participating in a relationship with God? I would say "yes," through mortal sin. Can grace move us to repentance and restore the relationship? Of course. If one has stopped participating in relationship with God, is one in a state of rightstanding with God? No. Does death put a stop to this trial period? Scripture suggests it does. Does God always call us to repentence? Yes. Does He promise that He cause us to repent before death? Not that I know of. What happens if we die unrepentant? Scripture suggests that the door is shut and we will be outside to wail and gnash our teeth. Ezra distinguishes between the professors and possessors. How do you know which one you are? You really can't be sure until the end. You might be going through the motions of a possessor until you reveal your true self in sin. You can't know what is in your future. Catholics who approach the sacraments with the proper disposition can be sure of their effect. Although self-deception remains a possibility, I suggest that sincere Catholics"following Catholic rules" can have a greater degree of certainty as to their spiritual status that Protestants following "Protestant rules." On the Feast of St. Irenaeus Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

Ezra -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/28/2005 11:51:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw If one is unrepentant, one is lost. ... What happens if we die unrepentant? Scripture suggests that the door is shut and we will be outside to wail and gnash our teeth. sdaw: If you are referring to sinners who have never believed and repented, then you are right. If you are referring to saints, then you are wrong. One needs to keep in mind that while some saints [in the biblical sense]genuinely repent and are converted, they can also fall into grievous sins, and may not repent. The sins of the saints do not send them to Hell, therefore they are not "lost" after they are saved. However, God does deal with sinning saints and unrepentant saints in His own way. Perhaps "sinning saint" sounds like an oxymoron until we look at the denial of Christ by "Saint Peter", and how serious it was, and how Christ dealt with it after His resurrection and restored Peter. quote: Justification through faith alone strikes me as being an acceptable Catholic formulation. We are not saved by faith alone, because we are not saved by faith, but rather by grace. If the Catholic Church does indeed teach justification by grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ, then why does ir continue to hold to sacramentalism, which in effect denies such justification? quote: We are not saved by works at all, nor through works except that faith precedes them. Yet we are commanded in Scripture to do God's work. So works cannot be left out of the salvation equation. Paul is emphatic that works be left out of the salvation equation, because works cannot justify if faith is what justifies. James simply insists that if your faith is genuine it will produce good works, and if there are no works then your faith is "dead". quote: Ezra distinguishes between the professors and possessors. How do you know which one you are? You really can't be sure until the end. You seem to have forgotten 1 John 5:9-13 which tells us that we can know right now with absolute certainty whether we have eternal life or we don't. We know we have eternal life because (1) we have believed the record or testimony of God the Father which He has given of His Son, (2) we have believed on the Son and received Him as Lord and Savior, (3) consequently we have received the gift of eternal life (including the gift of God Himself - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), (4) the one who has the Son dwelling within Him has eternal life, (5) the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of God. quote: You might be going through the motions of a possessor until you reveal your true self in sin. You can't know what is in your future. Those who do not possess the Holy Spirit will NOT have the Spirit confirming to their spirits that they are children of God. They will not have the assurance even while they go through the motions. quote: Catholics who approach the sacraments with the proper disposition can be sure of their effect. Although self-deception remains a possibility, I suggest that sincere Catholics"following Catholic rules" can have a greater degree of certainty as to their spiritual status that Protestants following "Protestant rules." Let's put aside both Catholic and Protestant "rules" and focus on Bible truth. The sacraments DO NOT guarantee eternal life. If you were to ask the average Catholic whether he or she knows WITHOUT THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that they have eternal life, they could not say they have that assurance, since the RCC withholds that assurance from its adherents. The Bible says that not only can we have this assurance but we must have this assurance, and this assurance comes by simply taking God at His word: "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (1 Jn.5:12; Jn.3:36).

ferdgoodfellow -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/29/2005 8:35:19 AM)
Hey sdaw, Was passing thru and saw your summary points. Here are some followup queries and comments. Regarding salvation, Catholics believe: 1. The cause of justification is grace. I recall that St Theresa of Avila, in a momeent of ecstasy, once exclaimed something like: "It is grace! It is all grace!!!" 2. One cannot do anything to merit justification. The Church emphatically teaches that there is certainly nothing we can do before our initial justification to merit justification in the strict sense. And, which should surprise many Prots, there is nothing afterward that we can do to merit it in the strict sense. 3. One is justified by faith. Can we also say..."and works performed through, with and by faith"? 4. The will consents to justification. 5. The consent of the will is enabled and energized by grace. 6. The justified are enabled and energized by grace to obey God's commands. 7. Works, among other things, are God working in the life of the believer. 8. Works are not a cause of justification. This requires elaboration. Because good works of any kind are not inherently meritorious at any time does not mean that they do not contribute in some way (by reason of God's graciousness) to the maintenance and growth in our justification after one's initial justification. 9. Those who die in a state of justification are saved. 10.God saves for His own glory. Hope things are going well for you and yours. have you finisthed Sullivan's book yet? With warm regards, ferd

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/29/2005 8:48:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw If one is unrepentant, one is lost. ... What happens if we die unrepentant? Scripture suggests that the door is shut and we will be outside to wail and gnash our teeth. sdaw: If you are referring to sinners who have never believed and repented, then you are right. If you are referring to saints, then you are wrong. One needs to keep in mind that while some saints [in the biblical sense]genuinely repent and are converted, they can also fall into grievous sins, and may not repent. The sins of the saints do not send them to Hell, therefore they are not "lost" after they are saved. However, God does deal with sinning saints and unrepentant saints in His own way. Perhaps "sinning saint" sounds like an oxymoron until we look at the denial of Christ by "Saint Peter", and how serious it was, and how Christ dealt with it after His resurrection and restored Peter. quote: Justification through faith alone strikes me as being an acceptable Catholic formulation. We are not saved by faith alone, because we are not saved by faith, but rather by grace. If the Catholic Church does indeed teach justification by grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ, then why does ir continue to hold to sacramentalism, which in effect denies such justification? quote: We are not saved by works at all, nor through works except that faith precedes them. Yet we are commanded in Scripture to do God's work. So works cannot be left out of the salvation equation. Paul is emphatic that works be left out of the salvation equation, because works cannot justify if faith is what justifies. James simply insists that if your faith is genuine it will produce good works, and if there are no works then your faith is "dead". quote: Ezra distinguishes between the professors and possessors. How do you know which one you are? You really can't be sure until the end. You seem to have forgotten 1 John 5:9-13 which tells us that we can know right now with absolute certainty whether we have eternal life or we don't. We know we have eternal life because (1) we have believed the record or testimony of God the Father which He has given of His Son, (2) we have believed on the Son and received Him as Lord and Savior, (3) consequently we have received the gift of eternal life (including the gift of God Himself - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), (4) the one who has the Son dwelling within Him has eternal life, (5) the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of God. quote: You might be going through the motions of a possessor until you reveal your true self in sin. You can't know what is in your future. Those who do not possess the Holy Spirit will NOT have the Spirit confirming to their spirits that they are children of God. They will not have the assurance even while they go through the motions. quote: Catholics who approach the sacraments with the proper disposition can be sure of their effect. Although self-deception remains a possibility, I suggest that sincere Catholics"following Catholic rules" can have a greater degree of certainty as to their spiritual status that Protestants following "Protestant rules." Let's put aside both Catholic and Protestant "rules" and focus on Bible truth. The sacraments DO NOT guarantee eternal life. If you were to ask the average Catholic whether he or she knows WITHOUT THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that they have eternal life, they could not say they have that assurance, since the RCC withholds that assurance from its adherents. The Bible says that not only can we have this assurance but we must have this assurance, and this assurance comes by simply taking God at His word: "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (1 Jn.5:12; Jn.3:36). Dear Erza, How is an unrepentant person in rightstanding with God? Just because God restored St. Peter is no assurance that He will do the same for thee or me. The sacraments do not guarantee eternal life. They are God's saving grace in action. Without faith, who would be disposed to receive them worthily? I have heard too many Protestants say that they thought they had been saved, but that they had never really trusted Jesus. I don't put much stock in feelings. In practical terms, how can a person know with certainty that he is a possessor and not a professor? How do you reconcile the certainty of which John speaks with the hope of St. Paul? On the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/29/2005 8:54:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow Hey sdaw, Was passing thru and saw your summary points. Here are some followup queries and comments. Regarding salvation, Catholics believe: 1. The cause of justification is grace. I recall that St Theresa of Avila, in a momeent of ecstasy, once exclaimed something like: "It is grace! It is all grace!!!" 2. One cannot do anything to merit justification. The Church emphatically teaches that there is certainly nothing we can do before our initial justification to merit justification in the strict sense. And, which should surprise many Prots, there is nothing afterward that we can do to merit it in the strict sense. 3. One is justified by faith. Can we also say..."and works performed through, with and by faith"? 4. The will consents to justification. 5. The consent of the will is enabled and energized by grace. 6. The justified are enabled and energized by grace to obey God's commands. 7. Works, among other things, are God working in the life of the believer. 8. Works are not a cause of justification. This requires elaboration. Because good works of any kind are not inherently meritorious at any time does not mean that they do not contribute in some way (by reason of God's graciousness) to the maintenance and growth in our justification after one's initial justification. 9. Those who die in a state of justification are saved. 10.God saves for His own glory. Hope things are going well for you and yours. have you finisthed Sullivan's book yet? With warm regards, ferd Dear Ferd, I made a reading detour through C.S.Lewis' Space Trilogy, I plan to get back to Sullivan this week. Glad to hear from you again. I hope things are well with y'all also. I once had an unpleasent exchange on merit with two well-posters in the old CW. Am willing to do so again if necessary. It is not a complicated issue, but some cannot see it from the Catholic view. Take care! On the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

ahunter26 -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/29/2005 10:30:28 AM)
Let me say this. I was raised Catholic. I was and still am surrounded by Catholics. I was NEVER at any point in time taught by the Catholic church or any other Catholic person for that matter ANYTHING about salvation. I did all the steps: baptism, communion, all the classes in between, confirmation. At the end of all that, I'm wondering: what's the point? Isn't there something more? I NEVER learned about salvation until I befriended a young woman who attended a non-Catholic church. Naturally I had several questions. Her answers to my questions were always, read your bible. The Bible is the one and only TRUTH. Forget the RCC!! ALWAYS go by what's in the Bible! Six years ago I was saved. By reading the Bible and studying God's word I learned many things. One--the Bible says nothing about the rosary or praying to the virgin Mary. Two--I learned that I can be forgiven for my sins by simply praying to God, repenting, and asking His forgiveness. I don't have to confess to a priest or say certain prayers so many times. Three--I have also learned that it's not a sin to eat meat on Fridays during Lent. Four--if a baby dies before being baptized, he or she will not go to hell. Five--there's no such thing as purgatory. Since becoming saved and attending a non-denominational church, I have learned that many Catholics view this as a sin, and I am viewed as a blasphemer because I have left the Catholic church. One might say that I have issues with the Catholic church, and yes I do. WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD! We are NOT saved by acting as Roman Catholics act. We are saved by believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins and by accepting Him as our Savior. We are saved by "acting" on what God tells us to do. The Catholic church is very different from many other churches and do things differently than Baptists or Protestants or etc. However, if there are Catholic churches out there who are teaching about salvation according to the Bible and not some doctrine, then God bless them. If there are Catholics out there who are saved according to the Bible and not some doctrine and are still comfortable in the Catholic church, then God bless you!!!! I have come across many, MANY Catholics who do not understand things done in the Catholic church, yet they have been brought up and taught that it is a sin to question it. I know MANY more Catholics who believe that the Catholic way is the only way. And for the record! (Forgive me but I don't quite yet know how to quote on here.) For those of you who may not have done your research regarding Islam and Judaism--Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. I have studied the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran and I have learned that JESUS is the key. Aside from nit-picky things, it is our belief of Jesus Christ and WHO HE is that makes the drastic differences in these religions. Also let us keep in mind, we are not to judge each other. Judgement of others for their sin is worse than the sin itself. I praise God that I found my friend who taught me about salvation! I thank God for bringing her into my life! It does not matter if someone is Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Evangelist, Protestant or whatever. There are not sections in heaven for the Catholics and the Baptists and so on. There are not sections in heaven for the caucasions and african-americans, and indians and chinese. It doesn't matter what culture you come from. I'm sure everyone gets my point!

Lurker -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/29/2005 3:06:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ahunter26 Let me say this. I was raised Catholic. I was and still am surrounded by Catholics. I was NEVER at any point in time taught by the Catholic church or any other Catholic person for that matter ANYTHING about salvation. I did all the steps: baptism, communion, all the classes in between, confirmation. At the end of all that, I'm wondering: what's the point? Isn't there something more? I NEVER learned about salvation until I befriended a young woman who attended a non-Catholic church. Naturally I had several questions. Her answers to my questions were always, read your bible. The Bible is the one and only TRUTH. Well, I'm sorr your catechism class was so poor that you have left the Church. That said, the Bible is NOT the sole rule of faith, in fact, the idea of Sola Scriptura is a recent invention by the reformation and is itself, unscriptural. I think there's a thread on this subject though. quote: Forget the RCC!! ALWAYS go by what's in the Bible! Six years ago I was saved. By reading the Bible and studying God's word I learned many things. One--the Bible says nothing about the rosary or praying to the virgin Mary. The rosary didn't come into practice until 1000AD or so, and even then it went through several iterations before becoming what we know today as the Rosary. The bible also didn't mention the Trinity explicitly or the Incarnation, but there were strong implications. Asking the saints to pray on our behalf is there as well implicitly. There's a couple of threads about the Theotokos if you want to discuss it further. quote: Two--I learned that I can be forgiven for my sins by simply praying to God, repenting, and asking His forgiveness. I don't have to confess to a priest or say certain prayers so many times. "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18) "�As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.� And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, �Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained�" (John 20:21�23) Those are two verses that speak of the authority given to the apostles and their successors to hear and forgive sins in Jesus' name. If you wish to discuss this issue more, there's a thread on that too. quote: Three--I have also learned that it's not a sin to eat meat on Fridays during Lent. There's an article here that goes into depth on this. quote: Four--if a baby dies before being baptized, he or she will not go to hell. That's not official Catholic teaching. quote: Five--there's no such thing as purgatory. Yes there is. And there's a thread about it as well. quote: Since becoming saved and attending a non-denominational church, I have learned that many Catholics view this as a sin, and I am viewed as a blasphemer because I have left the Catholic church. I just think you're mistaken and weren't fully educated in the Catholic faith. But I don't think you're necessarily a blasphemer. quote: One might say that I have issues with the Catholic church, and yes I do. WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD! We are NOT saved by acting as Roman Catholics act. We are saved by believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins and by accepting Him as our Savior. We are saved by "acting" on what God tells us to do. The Catholic church is very different from many other churches and do things differently than Baptists or Protestants or etc. Of course the Catholic Church is different from the Baptists, and the other Protestant Churches. It is the authority of the Catholic Church that brought the compilations of the scriptures. It is the Church of the Martyrs and the Apostles. It is the Church founded by Christ Himself in Matthew 16:18 and, as Our Most Blessed Lord Jesus has promised, the very gates of hell have not prevailed against it.

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/29/2005 7:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ahunter26 Let me say this. I was raised Catholic. I was and still am surrounded by Catholics. I was NEVER at any point in time taught by the Catholic church or any other Catholic person for that matter ANYTHING about salvation. I did all the steps: baptism, communion, all the classes in between, confirmation. At the end of all that, I'm wondering: what's the point? Isn't there something more? I NEVER learned about salvation until I befriended a young woman who attended a non-Catholic church. Naturally I had several questions. Her answers to my questions were always, read your bible. The Bible is the one and only TRUTH. Forget the RCC!! ALWAYS go by what's in the Bible! Six years ago I was saved. By reading the Bible and studying God's word I learned many things. One--the Bible says nothing about the rosary or praying to the virgin Mary. Two--I learned that I can be forgiven for my sins by simply praying to God, repenting, and asking His forgiveness. I don't have to confess to a priest or say certain prayers so many times. Three--I have also learned that it's not a sin to eat meat on Fridays during Lent. Four--if a baby dies before being baptized, he or she will not go to hell. Five--there's no such thing as purgatory. Since becoming saved and attending a non-denominational church, I have learned that many Catholics view this as a sin, and I am viewed as a blasphemer because I have left the Catholic church. One might say that I have issues with the Catholic church, and yes I do. WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD! We are NOT saved by acting as Roman Catholics act. We are saved by believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins and by accepting Him as our Savior. We are saved by "acting" on what God tells us to do. The Catholic church is very different from many other churches and do things differently than Baptists or Protestants or etc. However, if there are Catholic churches out there who are teaching about salvation according to the Bible and not some doctrine, then God bless them. If there are Catholics out there who are saved according to the Bible and not some doctrine and are still comfortable in the Catholic church, then God bless you!!!! I have come across many, MANY Catholics who do not understand things done in the Catholic church, yet they have been brought up and taught that it is a sin to question it. I know MANY more Catholics who believe that the Catholic way is the only way. And for the record! (Forgive me but I don't quite yet know how to quote on here.) For those of you who may not have done your research regarding Islam and Judaism--Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. I have studied the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran and I have learned that JESUS is the key. Aside from nit-picky things, it is our belief of Jesus Christ and WHO HE is that makes the drastic differences in these religions. Also let us keep in mind, we are not to judge each other. Judgement of others for their sin is worse than the sin itself. I praise God that I found my friend who taught me about salvation! I thank God for bringing her into my life! It does not matter if someone is Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Evangelist, Protestant or whatever. There are not sections in heaven for the Catholics and the Baptists and so on. There are not sections in heaven for the caucasions and african-americans, and indians and chinese. It doesn't matter what culture you come from. I'm sure everyone gets my point! Dear ahunter26, I don't doubt your sincerity. I find it difficult to believe that you could have been raised Catholic and never heard anything about salvation, after all, it is explained quite succinctly at Mass in the Eucharistic Prayer. Still, I rejoice that you have found Christ and live for Him. Keep studying. There is a special section in Heaven for members of the Church of Christ. Otherwise they would be miserable knowing that others are there as well. On the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

Ezra -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/30/2005 1:41:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw How is an unrepentant person in rightstanding with God? sdaw: First of all, we need to be clear that those who are genuine sheep in God's flock will generally not be unrepentant. However, the right standing with God occurs at the point when a sinner believes the Gospel. Those who believe the Gospel, repent, and receive Christ as Lord and Savior are justified by faith and have peace with God. They receive the gift of imputed righteousness, and therefore they are not only in a right standing with God, but also become children of God through the new birth -- a new creation in Christ. It is entirely possible for a Christian to sin, that is why I used the example of Peter. But Peter wept bitterly for his sin, he repented, and he was restored. This should be the case with every Christian. However, some may remain unrepentant. They do not lose their status as children of God, but they do lose fellowship with their Father, and if they continue to remain unrepentant, they are prematurely terminated (e.g. Ananias and Sapphira). We are not told how God ultimately deals with such individuals, but we can rest assured that neither His holiness nor His grace are violated. quote: Just because God restored St. Peter is no assurance that He will do the same for thee or me. As Christ said "O thou of little faith". Peter is set before us as an example that God will indeed restore His child who confesses and repents. That's why we have 1 Jn. 1:1-2:2. quote: I have heard too many Protestants say that they thought they had been saved, but that they had never really trusted Jesus. I don't put much stock in feelings. And one shouldn't. That's why the apostle John gives us the marks of a true believer in his first epistle also. If you'll carefully study that epistle, you'll see that God has provided us with a checklist to determine if we are genuinely children of God. quote: In practical terms, how can a person know with certainty that he is a possessor and not a professor? I would recommend an in-depth study of First John. That should answer your questions and provide you with the fullest teaching on how one knows one is a "possessor". quote: How do you reconcile the certainty of which John speaks with the hope of St. Paul? While Paul uses the term "the hope of salvation" (1 Thess. 5:8) his teaching actually reveals it to be as much of a certainty as John. "Hope" in Paul's vocabulary is something as yet not realized or experienced as a reality, not something that is uncertain and contingent upon our good behavior. Paul speaks of justification while John speaks of eternal life, but Paul brings it all together in Rom. 6:23. The real issue is to clearly grasp the awesome truth about "justification" and "imputed righteousness". Paul teaches that when God justifies the sinner He actually declares him "Righteous" -- as righteous or as perfect as God! Let's look at Romans 3:21-26 and 4:20-25. Here's what Paul says: 1. Now [since the crucifixion and resurrection] the righteousness of God apart from the Law is manifested. This righteousness was testified of by both the Law and the Prophets (3:21) 2. This righteousness is offered to all and placed upon all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (3:22). IOW it is a gift. 3. All have sinned and come short of God's absolute perfection (3:23) 4. Therefore all can and must be justified -- declared righteous -- freely by God's grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (3:24) 5. God has placed Christ before all sinners as the propitiatory sacrifice who shed His blood for our redemption, so that those who place their faith in His blood can receive the forgiveness of sins. Thus God can be both merciful and righteous (3:25) 6. Salvation through the redemptive work of Christ declares the righteousness of God -- that He can be both just as well as the justifier of him who believes on Christ Jesus (3:26). 7. Abraham did not "stagger" at the promise of God through unbelief. Instead he was strong in faith, giving glory to God (4:20). 8. Abraham believed without the shadow of a doubt that what God had promised, He would also perform (4:21) 9. Therefore his faith was imputed -- put to his account -- for righteousness (4:22). 10. This was not recorded for his sake alone, that it was "imputed to him" (4:23). 11. This same principle of imputed righteousness is for us also who believe that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again for our justification (4:24,25). We too must not stagger through unbelief but believe the record that God has given of His Son. 12. Justification and imputed righteousness are included in the gift of eternal life and these are all aspects of salvation -- being saved from God's wrath and being saved by Christ's life within the believer (Rom.5:8-11; 6:23).

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/30/2005 8:40:45 AM)
Dear Ezra, First, let me say how much I am enjoying this exchange. I appreciate your patience and calm, clear explanation, even if I do not agree with all of your statements. In fact, I do agree with most of what you say. You did, however, put your finger on my exact objection. "God's holiness and grace are not violated." You stated that an unrepentant sinner . . ."loses fellowship with (his) Father." Without fellowship, there is not rightstanding with God. Despite God's constant call to repentance, some sinners may not repentant, even though they have had a valid rebirth in God. For God to welcome those who have finally rejected Him, I suggest, violates His holiness. On the Feast of the First Martyrs of Rome Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

nowimfound -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/30/2005 7:32:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TimL Hi All, Sorry to get here so late, but I have never understood something about the Protestant perspective on this issue: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, socery, emnity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissention, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21 The literal interpretation of this verse would result in how many of us attaining the Kingdom of heaven? Correct, Zip. Given the fact that we cannot ignore St. Paul's words here, after all he is one of the two most important Saints of the Catholic Church, how exactly do we interpret this verse so that it fits with either Salvation by Faith Alone, or Catholic Doctrine? God Bless You All, Tim You are correct that the verse teaches that according to our works no one will be saved. The verse is an execellent example of the teaching of the Law found in the N.T. Just because the verse is found in what we call the N.T. does not mean that it is a Gospel verse. This is a common misunderstanding. Teachings of the Law whether from the O.T. or the N.T. books of the Bible are intended to lead us to our need for a Savior. We need a savior who saves us apart from our works--one saves us by Faith alone. Seen this way, Gal 5:19-21 leads us to Salvation by Faith Alone. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Grace and Peace, NIF

Ezra -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (6/30/2005 10:36:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw You stated that an unrepentant sinner . . ."loses fellowship with (his) Father." Without fellowship, there is not rightstanding with God. sdaw: Thank you for the kind words. Since we are in general agreement, let's focus on the points you raise where we are in disagreement. You say "Without fellowship there is no right standing with God". But that does not truly represent the case. Right standing with God (being justified freely by His grace), sonship and heirship go together, and this is what we must clearly grasp and hold on to. Let's look at it from a human perspective first. You are the son of your natural father ever since your birth, and nothing you do or fail to do can change that. That is a fact. Let's also say that you are your father's heir, and that he has stipulated in his will that no actions on your part will cause the loss of your heirship, but certain privileges will be denied for certain unacceptable actions. Now that is a very generous and gracious arrangement. When we apply this to the child of God, we find in Scripture that the sins of the saints do not lead to the loss of either sonship or heirship because the gift of eternal life is purely and solely on the basis of God's grace. There is no merit of ours which can grant us that privilege, and there is no sin of ours that can take away that privilege. It is carved in stone, so to speak, since we are eternally "fused" to Christ the Rock. *Fellowship -- koinonia* or communion with the Father and the Son -- however, is not the same as sonship or heirship, and you seem to be forgetting this vital point.** Fellowship is essentially "unity of the spirit in the bond of peace", and when a believer sins that fellowship is broken. Therefore God has made provision for fellowship to be restored through the "water" of the Word of God and the cleasing power of the blood of Christ by confession and repentance. quote: Despite God's constant call to repentance, some sinners may not repentant, even though they have had a valid rebirth in God. For God to welcome those who have finally rejected Him, I suggest, violates His holiness. Your use of the word "sinners" for those who have "had a valid rebirth" is incompatible with Scripture. Those who have been born again are declared saints immediately, having received the Holy Spirit and having been "sanctified" (set apart for holiness, sealed, and separated unto God) by the indwelling Holy Spirit. So once we are clear that sinning saints are not sinners separated from God and on their way to Hell, but disobedient children whose sonship and heirship are not in jeopardy, we can better understand how God deals with unrepentant saints. Sinning saints are required to confess their sins daily, and to examine their hearts each time they partake of the Lord's Supper, so that God's judgment may not come upon them. God also convicts his children through His Word and by His Spirit constantly. Christ also chastens and rebukes the ones He loves constantly. Christ our Shepherd has both a rod and a staff, and the rod is applied to the rebellious child as and when needed. If all God's dealings with a sinning saint do not lead to repentance, then his or her life is prematurely terminated ("the sin unto death"). We are not told how God deals with the soul and spirit of that saint, but we know from Scripture that saints who die under God's discipline prematurely DO NOT lose their salvation. Perhaps their premature death leads to repentance when they come face-to-face with God and Christ. To say that "they have finally rejected Him" is a little too extreme and does not represent the reality of the situation. Ananias and Sapphira did not "reject" Christ, neither did that Corinthian believer who sinned and was handed over to Satan for the "destruction" of the body, so that his spirit might be saved in the Day of Christ.

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (7/1/2005 12:10:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw You stated that an unrepentant sinner . . ."loses fellowship with (his) Father." Without fellowship, there is not rightstanding with God. sdaw: Thank you for the kind words. Since we are in general agreement, let's focus on the points you raise where we are in disagreement. You say "Without fellowship there is no right standing with God". But that does not truly represent the case. Right standing with God (being justified freely by His grace), sonship and heirship go together, and this is what we must clearly grasp and hold on to. Let's look at it from a human perspective first. You are the son of your natural father ever since your birth, and nothing you do or fail to do can change that. That is a fact. Let's also say that you are your father's heir, and that he has stipulated in his will that no actions on your part will cause the loss of your heirship, but certain privileges will be denied for certain unacceptable actions. Now that is a very generous and gracious arrangement. Agreed, being justified makes us sons (and daughters) and heirs with Christ. I disagree that God has promised that no actions on our part will cause the loss of our heirship. Matthew 25:41-45. Luke 12:41-46. Romans 11:20-22. Hebrews 4:3-6. Hebrews 12:25. quote: When we apply this to the child of God, we find in Scripture that the sins of the saints do not lead to the loss of either sonship or heirship because the gift of eternal life is purely and solely on the basis of God's grace. There is no merit of ours which can grant us that privilege, and there is no sin of ours that can take away that privilege. It is carved in stone, so to speak, since we are eternally "fused" to Christ the Rock. *Fellowship -- koinonia* or communion with the Father and the Son -- however, is not the same as sonship or heirship, and you seem to be forgetting this vital point.** Fellowship is essentially "unity of the spirit in the bond of peace", and when a believer sins that fellowship is broken. Therefore God has made provision for fellowship to be restored through the "water" of the Word of God and the cleasing power of the blood of Christ by confession and repentance. I don't dispute that restoration of fellowship with God is possible. quote: Despite God's constant call to repentance, some sinners may not repentant, even though they have had a valid rebirth in God. For God to welcome those who have finally rejected Him, I suggest, violates His holiness. quote: Your use of the word "sinners" for those who have "had a valid rebirth" is incompatible with Scripture. Those who have been born again are declared saints immediately, having received the Holy Spirit and having been "sanctified" (set apart for holiness, sealed, and separated unto God) by the indwelling Holy Spirit. So once we are clear that sinning saints are not sinners separated from God and on their way to Hell, but disobedient children whose sonship and heirship are not in jeopardy, we can better understand how God deals with unrepentant saints. Sinning saints are required to confess their sins daily, and to examine their hearts each time they partake of the Lord's Supper, so that God's judgment may not come upon them. God also convicts his children through His Word and by His Spirit constantly. Christ also chastens and rebukes the ones He loves constantly. Christ our Shepherd has both a rod and a staff, and the rod is applied to the rebellious child as and when needed. If all God's dealings with a sinning saint do not lead to repentance, then his or her life is prematurely terminated ("the sin unto death"). We are not told how God deals with the soul and spirit of that saint, but we know from Scripture that saints who die under God's discipline prematurely DO NOT lose their salvation. Perhaps their premature death leads to repentance when they come face-to-face with God and Christ. To say that "they have finally rejected Him" is a little too extreme and does not represent the reality of the situation. Ananias and Sapphira did not "reject" Christ, neither did that Corinthian believer who sinned and was handed over to Satan for the "destruction" of the body, so that his spirit might be saved in the Day of Christ. quote: If all God's dealings with a sinning saint do not lead to repentance, then his or her life is prematurely terminated ("the sin unto death"). We are not told how God deals with the soul and spirit of that saint, but we know from Scripture that saints who die under God's discipline prematurely DO NOT lose their salvation. Perhaps their premature death leads to repentance when they come face-to-face with God and Christ. I find here an implicit defense of some kind of Purgatory. There is no Scriptural evidence that the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira served to bring about their repentence. We are not talking about saints who die under God's discipline, but of those who ultimately reject God. This must be possible, else the author of Hebrews would not have written about it. On the Feast of the First Martyrs of Rome Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

mariadreamer -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (7/1/2005 1:45:39 AM)
quote: I was NEVER at any point in time taught by the Catholic church or any other Catholic person for that matter ANYTHING about salvation. I did all the steps: baptism, communion, all the classes in between, confirmation. At the end of all that, I'm wondering: what's the point? My husband was raised Catholic and I participated in Orthodox church for 12 years. I know from our experience and the experience of many others that what hunter26 says is how many people feel in those churches. That is exactly how we feel about it too. I DO NOT doubt the sincerity of the Catholic and Orthodox believers if they came to new life in Christ (I believe many of them do). But Christ came to heal the sick and and the sinful men who are thirsty for the knowledge of God. Spending time following Catholic rules keeps a lot of well-meaning "attenders" from reading and knowing the Word of God and therefore God's revelation and leadership. I consider myself a well-educated intelligent person, sincerely seeking God, but for many years just left frustrated and confused in those churches. If "the the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (gal 5:22-23), then we certainly did not have it in us until we learned about Christ from scriptures for ourselves and accepted his forgiveness and leadership. That was never discussed in either Catholic or Orthodox churches. To most people I know, it was just about rules and steps, like the other poster suggested. If you managed to be taught well in the Catholic church and found Christ's forgiveness and leadership, then I think it's great. I just think it makes it hard for most.

mysticman -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (7/1/2005 12:21:39 PM)
Ahunter and Maria- I know how both of you feel as I have experienced the same thing in my life, even growing up in the same culture as you Ahunter (I don't live far from you). I left the RCC in 1980 and searched for truth and found it in a myriad of places. I have since returned to the RCC on several occasions and have found it to be no different than any other mainstream denomination in it's approach to the gosples. This is from an eight year parochial student, altar boy, Ave Maria in Latin, the whole bit. I think it all hinges on our attitude at a young age, at least it did for me. I wanted something that was foreign to my parents because I was rebellious in my younger years. A break from the RCC was just the ticket for such a purpose. Now I have come to respect my upbringing and find that it established a firm foundation on which God later built. I am in no means referring to your situations but simply am relaying my own experiences.

Ezra -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (7/1/2005 1:07:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw We are not talking about saints who die under God's discipline, but of those who ultimately reject God. This must be possible, else the author of Hebrews would not have written about it. sdaw: This is an entirely different kettle of fish. I was not discussing apostates and apostasy at all. While Paul brings this up in Hebrews 6, it is presented as a warning rather than as a fact.

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