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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/1/2005 1:42:40 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
We are not talking about saints who die under God's discipline, but of those who ultimately reject God. This must be possible, else the author of Hebrews would not have written about it.
sdaw:
This is an entirely different kettle of fish. I was not discussing apostates and apostasy at all. While Paul brings this up in Hebrews 6, it is presented as a warning rather than as a fact.
Dear Ezra,
Is not unrepented sin the ultimate apostasy?
Why would Paul warn against something that cannot happen?
On the Feast of Blessed Junipero Serra
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/6/2005 7:23:30 PM
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ayani
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Pardon me from interrupting this high-level discussion with some more rudimentary questions. I probably should ask this in a Catholic board, but:
A statement my daughter made about recently raised some question in my mind regarding the Catholic views on salvation. I think she got something she heard from the Sisters twisted, but I’ve always been unclear enough on the Catholic views of salvation that I couldn’t correct her.
I have re-read the last couple pages here, especially Sdaw’s post #102 and Ferdgoodfellow post #112, but I still don’t get it.
Can any of you direct me to a short, readable, resource on-line (hopefully one written for Non-Catholics) on salvation?
I’d like to be able to explain the Catholic answer to some of these questions:
When does justification occur? If you are ‘saved’, when did it occur? At baptism? Confirmation? At you last communion before you died? After you completed your prescribed penance after your last mortal sin?. When are you sins forgiven (or, does it depend on whether the sin is mortal or venial).
Ferd mentions ‘growing in Justification’. What does this mean? I thought Justification was a ‘you either got it or you aint’ situation.
What is the relationship of sanctification to justification? What is the relationship of works to sanctification?
Thanks in advance-
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/7/2005 1:38:05 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
Pardon me from interrupting this high-level discussion with some more rudimentary questions. I probably should ask this in a Catholic board, but:
A statement my daughter made about recently raised some question in my mind regarding the Catholic views on salvation. I think she got something she heard from the Sisters twisted, but I’ve always been unclear enough on the Catholic views of salvation that I couldn’t correct her.
I have re-read the last couple pages here, especially Sdaw’s post #102 and Ferdgoodfellow post #112, but I still don’t get it.
Can any of you direct me to a short, readable, resource on-line (hopefully one written for Non-Catholics) on salvation?
I’d like to be able to explain the Catholic answer to some of these questions:
When does justification occur? If you are ‘saved’, when did it occur? At baptism? Confirmation? At you last communion before you died? After you completed your prescribed penance after your last mortal sin?. When are you sins forgiven (or, does it depend on whether the sin is mortal or venial).
Ferd mentions ‘growing in Justification’. What does this mean? I thought Justification was a ‘you either got it or you aint’ situation.
What is the relationship of sanctification to justification? What is the relationship of works to sanctification?
Thanks in advance-
Dear ayani,
For a readable resourse, I suggest the CCC http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm.
From a Catholic perspective, ignoring all the possible permuations, ordinarily. . .
for those bereft of the use of reason, justification occurs at Baptism.
for those with the use of reason, justification is completed in Baptism. I would phrase the two answers slightly differently because no Catholic would say than some one who desires to become a follower of Christ, but is unable be be baptised or dies beforehand, is lost.
Catholics do not used the word "saved" in the same way as Protestants. Catholics would not say "you get saved."
Justification, in Catholic usage, means being in a state of rightstanding with God. One enters into a state of rightstanding with God.
Unless one falls into knowingly and freely falls into a state of sin, one does not lose this state of rightstanding. If one does lose it, one can be restored to it by repentance.
Growing in justification means being more closely transformed into the image of God i.e. growing in holiness. For this reason, from a Catholic POV, sanctification is a part of justification
Sins are forgiven the instant you repent of them. Part of the ministry of the Church is the forgiveness of sins. The Church does not presume to forgive sins on her own, but holds Christ entrusted that power to her. This power is usually, but not exclusively, exercised in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. When we are properly disposed, we may have absolute assurance that our sins and sinfulness are forgiven through the Sacrament.
Faith and works, and their relation to sanctification and justification are all rather tricky to string together. But I'll try. . .
The beginning point is grace. By grace we have faith. By grace we are moved to works. Without faith, works are useless.
Justification is not just a forensic state, but a dynamic relationship with God. Like human relationships, it can grow closer.
Like human relationships, it can grow distant without terminating. Like human relationships, it can cease. Like human relationships, it can be reestablished. Works can be a means to relationship as well as a result, as in the following metaphor.
Your and that special someone come into a relationship called matrimony. A fruit of this relationship is a child. Because of all that is experienced on account of this child, you and your spouse have a deepening of your relationship. The child did not cause you to have the relationship in the first place. But, because of the child, your relationship is different and hopefully better.
On the Feast of St. Felix of Nantes
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/8/2005 2:29:03 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
For this reason, from a Catholic POV, sanctification is a part of justification
sdaw:
Have you ever wondered why God the Holy Spirit would use two distinct terms with distinct meanings if they were one and the same thing?
And what has your personal study of Scripture revealed about justification and sanctification as opposed to the Catholic POV?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/8/2005 4:17:08 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
For this reason, from a Catholic POV, sanctification is a part of justification
sdaw:
Have you ever wondered why God the Holy Spirit would use two distinct terms with distinct meanings if they were one and the same thing?
And what has your personal study of Scripture revealed about justification and sanctification as opposed to the Catholic POV?
Dear Ezra,
I didn't say they were one and the same thing. I said, " Growing in justification means being more closely transformed into the image of God i.e. growing in holiness. For this reason, from a Catholic POV, sanctification is a part of justification."
The Catholic view of justification is more that just a declaration of rightstanding with God, although it is that as well. Ayani asked what was meant by "an increase in justificiation." I explained that as best I could.
From my own personal study, I am convinced of the Catholic POV. To borrow your words from another post, I find the common Protestant idea of justification and salvation to violate both God's holiness and grace.
BTW, if memory serves, and I invite you to correct me if I am wrong, you yourself have stated that justification = salvation since one once justified cannot be unjustified. I ask you your first question.
On the Feast of Saints Priscilla and Aquila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/8/2005 6:19:43 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
BTW, if memory serves, and I invite you to correct me if I am wrong, you yourself have stated that justification = salvation since one once justified cannot be unjustified. I ask you your first question.
You're right. I have stated that justification is indeed salvation, and it is not a process but a one-time "placement" and "recognition" by none other than the Righteous Judge. Sanctification is simultaneous, but is also a process.
What I will do is start a separate thread on what the Bible teaches about justification [Gk. dikaiosis], since there seems to be a lot of confusion about this subject, and this thread is for the Catholic POV.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/8/2005 8:21:22 PM
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ayani
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Lurker, thanks for the link to that web-site.
I have gone through an article that web-site has on salvation a couple times, and it seems to match what SDaw is saying (you'll be glad to know you seem to be on the same page with the Bishop of San Diego).
Some followup questions:
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
for those bereft of the use of reason, justification occurs at Baptism.
for those with the use of reason, justification is completed in Baptism. I would phrase the two answers slightly differently because no Catholic would say than some one who desires to become a follower of Christ, but is unable be be baptised or dies beforehand, is lost.
So, what is the role of the other sacraments? If baptism (which I think you do before confirmation & first confession and first communion) is the completion of your justification, and you're 'saved', what do the other sacraments contribute?
And, if you don't have to be baptised to be saved, doesn't this mean there is something else that does 'save' you? What is that?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Catholics do not used the word "saved" in the same way as Protestants. Catholics would not say "you get saved."
My church doesn't use it either. But, although you don't use the language, as I understand it you don't have a quarrel with the concept, do you?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Justification, in Catholic usage, means being in a state of rightstanding with God. One enters into a state of rightstanding with God.
Unless one falls into knowingly and freely falls into a state of sin, one does not lose this state of rightstanding. If one does lose it, one can be restored to it by repentance.
So, if I understand you, a mortal sin is forgiven at reconciliation, when the priest tells you your sin is forgiven? Do you have to complete the 'pennance' first before you are forgiven? What about venial sins, are they forgiven immediately? This is what got my daughter confused.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Sins are forgiven the instant you repent of them. Part of the ministry of the Church is the forgiveness of sins. The Church does not presume to forgive sins on her own, but holds Christ entrusted that power to her. This power is usually, but not exclusively, exercised in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. When we are properly disposed, we may have absolute assurance that our sins and sinfulness are forgiven through the Sacrament. See above question
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Justification is not just a forensic state, but a dynamic relationship with God. We Reformed would say it is a healing or fixing of our relationship with God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Growing in justification means being more closely transformed into the image of God i.e. growing in holiness. For this reason, from a Catholic POV, sanctification is a part of justification
Like human relationships, it can grow closer.
Like human relationships, it can grow distant without terminating. Like human relationships, it can cease. Like human relationships, it can be reestablished. Works can be a means to relationship as well as a result, as in the following metaphor.[/qoute] The article I read explains my question here: justification does get you into heaven, so growth in justification doesn't do you any good in heaven, but its advantage to you is that you are less likely to commit a mortal sin.
For a readable resourse, I suggest the CCC http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm.
That's a pretty church. Is it yours?
Thanks for your post(s) Sdaw-
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[Deleted] - 7/12/2005 1:15:43 AM
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/12/2005 10:54:04 AM
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ahunter26
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From: Scott, Louisiana
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"And, if you don't have to be baptised to be saved, doesn't this mean there is something else that does 'save' you? What is that?
So, if I understand you, a mortal sin is forgiven at reconciliation, when the priest tells you your sin is forgiven? Do you have to complete the 'pennance' first before you are forgiven? What about venial sins, are they forgiven immediately? This is what got my daughter confused."
Ayani, you don't need a priest to tell you if your sins are forgiven. You don't even have to confess to a priest to be forgiven. You can do this in the privacy of your bedroom. You simply confess your sins to the Lord with a truly repentent heart and ask for His forgiveness. By doing this, you receive His forgiveness instantly. You do not have to do any sort of pennance. Also no sin is greater than the other. In God's eyes, gossipping about your neighbor is just as great as committing murder. You confess them the same and you forgive them the same. The ONLY thing that can save you is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, asking Him into your heart and accepting Him as your Savior. No works or deeds can save you. Not going to church every Sunday. Not being baptised as a baby or making your first communion or your first confirmation or your first confession. You cannot work your way to salvation. You can't confess your sins and then be saved. Jesus came and died on the cross so that our sins may be forgiven.
Romans 10:9-13 says this: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.' For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"
There is no difference between Jew or Gentile, Catholic or Protestant, and so on. God loves us all and wants us all to have eternal life. Methodist, Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, on and on.....These religions all have different ways of doing things. They may even have different ways of teaching salvation, but keep in mind there is only ONE way to get there. John 14:6 says this: "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
You see, Ayani, it is very simple. You simply go to the Lord and say "Here I am Lord. I am a sinner. I have sinned against you, Father. I ask forgiveness for all my sins. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for me and rose again. Father, I give you my life to do with as you wish. I ask Jesus Christ to come into my life and into my heart. In Jesus' name, Amen." That's it. If you have just prayed that prayer with a truly repentent heart and truly believing, then I congratulate you sister! You have been saved! When you die, you will go to heaven. Your name is written in the book of Life, and you will never be the same.
All of the answers to all of your questions are in the Bible. I implore you to seek God for your answers. Dig deeper and keep searching. There is something more. Many years ago I was very much like your daughter--CONFUSED. I sought God. I gave my questions to Him and I studied His Word. Then I found answers. I hope this has been helpful.
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[Deleted] - 7/12/2005 12:59:18 PM
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/12/2005 1:40:21 PM
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ahunter26
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From: Scott, Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
ahunter,
I do not know the origin of the sinners prayer. It certainly does not come from a proper understanding of Scripture. It seems to be a kind of New Age creation among some ecclesiastical communities. On the one hand they say that no works are necessary and on the other they say that this prayer is necessary to receive salvation. The irony of this teaching does not escape my curiosity.
The fact is according to Scripture is that the call to salvation is ENTIRELY the work of the Spirit and not of man. No man is capable of belief or faith in God without the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit our carnal natures would ALWAYS prevail. The Scriptures teach that the Law of God is written on the hearts of all men. It is the Holy Spirit that draws men to surrender to that Law and believe that which is unbelieveable to the carnal man. We are created to live eternally, it is the Spirit that enables us to fulfill that divine destiny and no other source.
In Christ
For the record, the sinners prayer does not have an origin. All it is is confessing to the Lord one's sins, asking for forgiveness, and accepting Christ as one's Savior. It doesn't have to be those exact words that I used before. It is not a written prayer like the "Hail Mary", "Glory Be", or the "Act of Contrition" as taught by the Catholic religion. Praying, as I'm sure you know, is simply talking to God and listening to Him. It doesn't have to be specific words. Some people even find that they have difficulty praying or feel a need to pray but don't know what for. That is when the Holy Spirit comes to our aid.
Do not assume that I do not know my Scripture. I may not have verses memorized but I know the Truth. I know that salvation is not a work of man. I know that a man cannot save another man. I was simply sharing the Truth and the Word of Jesus Christ. How will one learn about salvation if the Word is not shared with them? I know that in me lives the Holy Spirit and that I am being made new. I know that one day my earthly body will be turned to dust, and I will live forever in heaven. These things are true and I have read evidence of them in Scripture.
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[Deleted] - 7/12/2005 2:57:31 PM
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/12/2005 7:34:02 PM
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ayani
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
Justification occurs when we are sanctified through our surrender and obedience to the Spirit. Being saved is a process of sanctification.... Sins are forgiven when we come to God in confession with contrition and repentence and intention to sin no more regardless of the severity of the sin....
As I understand it, in Catholic teaching you have to do this confession to a priest, since God delegated the ability to forgive sins to the Roman Catholic church? Is this correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
It is a misunderstanding of Catholic beliefs to state that works are tied to salvation. It is through the grace received by faith that we are saved. Wouldn't the Catholic teaching be to add "and works" after the word faith in your last sentence? Every time I've seen this discussed the Catholic participant points that out. Or, is this an area of difference between your Catholic church and the Roman Catholic church? (I gather that you are not in communion with each other).
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/12/2005 8:38:50 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
Justification occurs when we are sanctified through our surrender and obedience to the Spirit. Being saved is a process of sanctification.... Sins are forgiven when we come to God in confession with contrition and repentence and intention to sin no more regardless of the severity of the sin....
As I understand it, in Catholic teaching you have to do this confession to a priest, since God delegated the ability to forgive sins to the Roman Catholic church? Is this correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
It is a misunderstanding of Catholic beliefs to state that works are tied to salvation. It is through the grace received by faith that we are saved. Wouldn't the Catholic teaching be to add "and works" after the word faith in your last sentence? Every time I've seen this discussed the Catholic participant points that out. Or, is this an area of difference between your Catholic church and the Roman Catholic church? (I gather that you are not in communion with each other).
Dear ayani,
Venial sins are forgiven the moment they are repented. Mortal sins are forgiven (1) by an act of perfect contrition, i.e. repentance solely because the sin offended God, not because mortal sins sever fellowship with God and what that entails; (2) by a worthy confession and absolution. Christ did give the Church the authority to forgive sins (John 20:23), but the confessional is not the only place this takes place.
Catholics do not believe we are saved by faith and works, as if these were two sources of salvation. We are justified by grace, through faith, nothing else. In all the discussions on faith and works at CW, where most Protestants state that faith alone is never faith that is alone,
I have concluded that the difference between the C and P views are this.
C's see justification not only as the establishment of rightstanding with God, but also as an increase in the degree to which the believer more closely resembles the divine nature. Works are as much as the result of grace as is faith. Like the grace bestowed through faith, the grace bestowed through works transforms us. In no case is it of ourselves.
On the Feast of St. John Jones
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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[Deleted] - 7/12/2005 11:56:46 PM
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2005 1:56:08 AM
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unworthyseraphim
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The "sinner's prayer" historically speaking is the much diminished theological child of Finney's mourner's bench. Waiting around a day or two or three in crisis prayer mode "watching" with those souls who had come forward int the depths of almost hysterical spiritual depair to the "mourner's bench" became tedious after a few years and the practice was worn down to its existential nub over the course of the next hundred and fifty years, to the present twinge of conscience, walking the aisle/show of hands/quietly in your seat, a set prayer expressing repentance and trust in the salvic work of Christ, a membership card, a dry keenex and a hearty pat on the back.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2005 2:12:31 AM
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unworthyseraphim
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The Orthodox Catholic understanding of salvation rejects Augustinian notions of original sin and the extreme forensic schema postulated by Anshelm and develped further in Calvanist theological circles.
We reject justification as a mere forensic declaration of righteousness. Christ does not forensically declare people righteous, He makes them righteous, imparting His righteousness to them as they work out their salvation with fear and trembling. Justification is not instant but an ongoing process of making righteous and bringing the repentant sinner to a place of purity and conformity to the image and ultimately the likeness and measure of the stature of Christ.
Furthermore Orthodox reject the notion that Christ offered Himself in any sense to appease the Father's wrath, satisfy Divine Justice, or any other such idea. Christ died to defeat death by death, to purchase man...all mankind back from the clutches of death...which is why there will be a resurrection. He is the resurrection. The Father is not a moral monster to demand the murder of His Son to satisfy His wounded pride or "justice" if one wants to call it that so that He may then love and spare some men. He Who calls upon His people to forgive freely cannot then demand blood as the price of His own forgiveness. Man's problem has never been receiving the forgiveness of God, but rather our seperation from Him, the source and font of our life. We are dead apart from Him and in Christ that fellowship with life is restored. Death was riven asunder and made the entry into paradise for those who will believe and be joined to Christ. Christ death was not so that God could forgive us, but so that through union with Christ we may pass through death into life and back into fellowship with the Father. In Christ Life swallows up death. That is why He shed and gave us His blood, that it may be unto us a fountain of immortality.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2005 8:14:38 AM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
quote:
As I understand it, in Catholic teaching you have to do this confession to a priest, since God delegated the ability to forgive sins to the Roman Catholic church? Is this correct?
I agree with sdaw's explanation. I will add a few points. It is not Catholic belief that one MUST confess to a priest to be forgiven. One can confess directly to God. As has been explained the apostles and their successors were and are given the power to bind and to loose which is inclusivebut not exclusive to the forgiveness of sins. It is recommended that one confess to a priest because hearing the words of absolution are comforting to those who have committed sins and are filled with contrition. It also has the effect of conditioning the priest towards his duties in regards to pastoring the individual which is a priests primary responsibility.
quote:
Wouldn't the Catholic teaching be to add "and works" after the word faith in your last sentence? Every time I've seen this discussed the Catholic participant points that out. Or, is this an area of difference between your Catholic church and the Roman Catholic church? (I gather that you are not in communion with each other).
I believe that you are probably a little confused as to whom points out this. It is a real problem in discussing this with Protestants because all their apologists insist that Catholics include works. This is absolutely not true. The oldest liturgy of the Mass clearly states that salvation is by faith resulting in grace and NOT works. I have had this discussion many times with fellow professors who are RCC priests and without exception works are not included except as a fruit of the grace bestowed upon the believer.
My differences with the RCC are primarily over Papal infallibility and celibate clergy. There are very few doctrinal issues that I disagree with them about.
In Christ
Dear christoiglesia,
One additional thing needs to be made crystal clear. A person who makes a worthy confession can be as certain "as a Christian with four aces" that all his sins are forgiven. (Thank you Mr. Clemmons)
On the Feast of St. Henry
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2005 8:17:34 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
The Orthodox Catholic understanding of salvation rejects Augustinian notions of original sin and the extreme forensic schema postulated by Anshelm and develped further in Calvanist theological circles.
We reject justification as a mere forensic declaration of righteousness. Christ does not forensically declare people righteous, He makes them righteous, imparting His righteousness to them as they work out their salvation with fear and trembling. Justification is not instant but an ongoing process of making righteous and bringing the repentant sinner to a place of purity and conformity to the image and ultimately the likeness and measure of the stature of Christ.
Furthermore Orthodox reject the notion that Christ offered Himself in any sense to appease the Father's wrath, satisfy Divine Justice, or any other such idea. Christ died to defeat death by death, to purchase man...all mankind back from the clutches of death...which is why there will be a resurrection. He is the resurrection. The Father is not a moral monster to demand the murder of His Son to satisfy His wounded pride or "justice" if one wants to call it that so that He may then love and spare some men. He Who calls upon His people to forgive freely cannot then demand blood as the price of His own forgiveness. Man's problem has never been receiving the forgiveness of God, but rather our seperation from Him, the source and font of our life. We are dead apart from Him and in Christ that fellowship with life is restored. Death was riven asunder and made the entry into paradise for those who will believe and be joined to Christ. Christ death was not so that God could forgive us, but so that through union with Christ we may pass through death into life and back into fellowship with the Father. In Christ Life swallows up death. That is why He shed and gave us His blood, that it may be unto us a fountain of immortality.
Dear UWS,
It it good to see your post again!
From the Orthodox point of view, what "happens" at the moment a person passes from an unjustified state to a justified one?
On the Feast of St. Henry
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2005 8:40:14 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11536
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From: Here, now
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quote:
I believe that you are probably a little confused as to whom points out this. It is a real problem in discussing this with Protestants because all their apologists insist that Catholics include works. This is absolutely not true.
I agree.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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[Deleted] - 7/13/2005 11:20:10 AM
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2005 11:26:58 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 742
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
My differences with the RCC are primarily over Papal infallibility and celibate clergy. There are very few doctrinal issues that I disagree with them about.
In Christ
You know, you sound... Orthodox. :)
Or at the very least, Eastern Rite Catholic. I know my RCIA director is allowed to be married should he find a suitable presbytera since he's Byzantine Catholic. And I know another Eastern Rite Catholic friend who, while disagreeing over Papal Infalliability, doens't feel it's worth being in schism over.
I myself am still not quite sure what to make of the whole debate. I'm kinda leaning towards supporting the concept of Papal infalliabilty, but with some caveats. However, that's another thread. :)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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[Deleted] - 7/13/2005 11:44:15 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2005 12:06:49 PM
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ayani
Posts: 182
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
It is a misunderstanding of Catholic beliefs to state that works are tied to salvation. It is through the grace received by faith that we are saved. Wouldn't the Catholic teaching be to add "and works" after the word faith in your last sentence? Every time I've seen this discussed the Catholic participant points that out. Or, is this an area of difference between your Catholic church and the Roman Catholic church? (I gather that you are not in communion with each other).
Dear ayani,
Venial sins are forgiven the moment they are repented. Mortal sins are forgiven (1) by an act of perfect contrition, i.e. repentance solely because the sin offended God, not because mortal sins sever fellowship with God and what that entails; (2) by a worthy confession and absolution. Christ did give the Church the authority to forgive sins (John 20:23), but the confessional is not the only place this takes place.
Catholics do not believe we are saved by faith and works, as if these were two sources of salvation. We are justified by grace, through faith, nothing else. In all the discussions on faith and works at CW, where most Protestants state that faith alone is never faith that is alone,
I have concluded that the difference between the C and P views are this.
C's see justification not only as the establishment of rightstanding with God, but also as an increase in the degree to which the believer more closely resembles the divine nature. Works are as much as the result of grace as is faith. Like the grace bestowed through faith, the grace bestowed through works transforms us. In no case is it of ourselves.
On the Feast of St. John Jones
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
Sdaw and Fr. Joseph:
I am corrected. I either had been misinformed, or, more likely,misunderstood. However, I still feel rather hazy on the Catholic thinking on how 'works' (including both morals and the Sacraments) impact and are impacted by grace, and justification. If I | | | |
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