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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/26/2005 7:21:06 AM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
I would like to ask some questions to my Protestant friends.
I don't consider myself Protestant, but I'll answer anyhow. The Protestants might have other answers.
quote:
What is "faith"?
Absolute trust and confidence in the true and living God, in the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the written Word of God: "Blessed is the man that maketh the LORD his trust... For ever, O LORD, thy Word is settled in Heaven... The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; He will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne [the Lord Jesus Christ]" (Ps. 40:4; 119:89; 132:11; Acts 2:30-36).
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Where does it come from?
From reading and hearing God's Word, particularly the Gospel (Rom.10:6-15) and being convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:7-15).
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Do I have to believe it?
You don't "have" to believe anything or anyone, but it is in your best eternal interests to believe God and His Word above everything else.
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What does it mean for me to believe it?
A transformed life on earth and eternal life in eternity.
Dear Ezra,
Thanks for your response!
My last questions needs some clarification. I didn't mean to ask what the results of faith are. I want to know, what is meant by "believing."
What do I do when I believe?
If you have the time, I will be grateful for a non-Catholic response.
On the Feast of Saints Joachim and Anne
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/26/2005 8:11:29 AM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2103
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quote:
What is "faith"?
Knowledge of the facts of God/Christ
Agreement that they are good.
Trust that they are true.
quote:
Where does it come from?
From the new you. The new you came from God.
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Do I have to believe it? What does it mean for me to believe it?
Believe what? That particular definition of faith I presume?
No, you have to have faith in Christ as your lord and savior, not faith in faith. That said, some definitions of faith are in such error that the person claiming such faith has no faith at all.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/26/2005 8:14:58 AM
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TheoJunkie
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I very much consider myself a pro (for) testant (witness).
I don't consider myself to be human though... I'm convinced I was abducted by space aliens and implanted with new DNA and they also performed medical experiments on me. I guarantee it, because I used to hate green tea, and now I sort of like it. There is no other possible explanation.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/26/2005 9:50:00 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
I want to know, what is meant by "believing."
What do I do when I believe?
The Bible uses the term "the obedience of faith". Those who believe God obey God without question, hesitation, or reservation.
They begin with obedience to the Gospel, follow up with obedience to the command to be baptized, and then live according to God's revelation of Himself.
They also trust God unquestioningly through every circumstance, and may even do that which is contrary to "reason" (e.g. Abraham sacrificing Isaac) if that is what God requires.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/26/2005 10:39:59 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
I want to know, what is meant by "believing."
What do I do when I believe?
The Bible uses the term "the obedience of faith". Those who believe God obey God without question, hesitation, or reservation.
They begin with obedience to the Gospel, follow up with obedience to the command to be baptized, and then live according to God's revelation of Himself.
They also trust God unquestioningly through every circumstance, and may even do that which is contrary to "reason" (e.g. Abraham sacrificing Isaac) if that is what God requires.
Dear Ezra,
Is it their will to obey, or do they obey without willing it themselves? Likewise, do they themselves believe, or is belief provided them?
On the Feast of Saints Joachim and Anne
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/27/2005 3:16:07 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1765
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear Ezra,
Is it their will to obey, or do they obey without willing it themselves?
sdaw:
As you probably know already, the whole tenor of Scripture is that man's obedience or disobedience is an act of his will. Had God planned for men to obey under compulsion, the history of Israel would have been one of total obedience and consequent blessings. As a matter of fact, Israel is condemned time and again for being stiff-necked and disobedient.
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Likewise, do they themselves believe, or is belief provided them?
There are those who claim that saving faith is a "gift" of God. There are others who say that "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". If we firstly understand that faith is essentially trust in the living God, then that trust is generated in human hearts under the influence of God's Word and through the power of His Holy Spirit, who convinces us that it is true, and convicts us for our sin and unbelief.
This is similar to the establishment of trust between individuals. Those who prove themselves trustworthy are trusted. Since God has proved Himself ABSOLUTELY TRUSTWORTHY over millenia, there is absolutely no reason why men should not trust Him. The reason they do not is because they love themselves and their sins more than God (Jn. 3:19-20).
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 8:01:48 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear Ezra,
Is it their will to obey, or do they obey without willing it themselves?
sdaw:
As you probably know already, the whole tenor of Scripture is that man's obedience or disobedience is an act of his will. Had God planned for men to obey under compulsion, the history of Israel would have been one of total obedience and consequent blessings. As a matter of fact, Israel is condemned time and again for being stiff-necked and disobedient.
quote:
Likewise, do they themselves believe, or is belief provided them?
There are those who claim that saving faith is a "gift" of God. There are others who say that "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". If we firstly understand that faith is essentially trust in the living God, then that trust is generated in human hearts under the influence of God's Word and through the power of His Holy Spirit, who convinces us that it is true, and convicts us for our sin and unbelief.
This is similar to the establishment of trust between individuals. Those who prove themselves trustworthy are trusted. Since God has proved Himself ABSOLUTELY TRUSTWORTHY over millenia, there is absolutely no reason why men should not trust Him. The reason they do not is because they love themselves and their sins more than God (Jn. 3:19-20).
Dear Ezra,
Thank you for your patient responses. I shall now get to the point.
The doctrine of Sola Fide is a very slippery fish to grasp, I have been reading a book by Friedrich Mildenberger, " Theology of the Lutheran Confessions," in which a Lutheran scholar discusses the Lutheran beliefs from the Lutheran perspective. Mildenberger quote Luther's description of Sola Fide as "the doctrine by which the Church (and the Reformation) stands or falls." Luther describes faith as something received from Christ. "For this reason, faith cannot be thought of as any kind of human work, knowledge decision, or agreement to accept God's offer of salvation." There is no act of the will involved.
It seems to me that what is called "Sola Fide" by evangelical Protestants is not what is meant by Sola Fide in the phrase's Reformational terms. From that point of view, Evangelicals are as guilty of "adding to the works of Christ" as Catholics supposedly are.
On the Feast of St. Olav Haraldson
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
< Message edited by sdaw -- 7/29/2005 8:15:30 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 11:28:19 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1765
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
"For this reason, faith cannot be thought of as any kind of human work, knowledge decision, or agreement to accept God's offer of salvation." There is no act of the will involved.
It seems to me that what is called "Sola Fide" by evangelical Protestants is not what is meant by Sola Fide in the phrase's Reformational terms. From that point of view, Evangelicals are as guilty of "adding to the works of Christ" as Catholics supposedly are.
sdaw:
Let's just back up a bit before we jump to that conclusion. As I pointed out above, faith, confidence and trust in the living God and the Lord Jesus Christ are ATTITUDES. An attitude cannot be a "work", although it can produce an act of the will.
So "obedience to the Gospel" is the act of the will (not necessarily a work) produced by faith. Therefore faith produces a "knowledge decision, or agreement to accept God's offer of salvation", but faith in itself remains an attitude towards God. I trust this fine distiction makes all the difference.
Any way you look at it, justification is purely by God's grace through faith in Christ and His finished work. No one can add one iota to that perfect work of Christ on our behalf.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 12:04:44 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
"For this reason, faith cannot be thought of as any kind of human work, knowledge decision, or agreement to accept God's offer of salvation." There is no act of the will involved.
It seems to me that what is called "Sola Fide" by evangelical Protestants is not what is meant by Sola Fide in the phrase's Reformational terms. From that point of view, Evangelicals are as guilty of "adding to the works of Christ" as Catholics supposedly are.
sdaw:
Let's just back up a bit before we jump to that conclusion. As I pointed out above, faith, confidence and trust in the living God and the Lord Jesus Christ are ATTITUDES. An attitude cannot be a "work", although it can produce an act of the will.
So "obedience to the Gospel" is the act of the will (not necessarily a work) produced by faith. Therefore faith produces a "knowledge decision, or agreement to accept God's offer of salvation", but faith in itself remains an attitude towards God. I trust this fine distiction makes all the difference.
Any way you look at it, justification is purely by God's grace through faith in Christ and His finished work. No one can add one iota to that perfect work of Christ on our behalf.
Dear Ezra,
No, I don't think so, in the Lutheran Sola Fide scheme of things. If we have anything at at to do with salvation, either by decision, response, cooperation, anything at all which involves us rather than God in us, then that detracts from Sola Fide. This is a different issue than Christ's finished redemptive work on our behalf. Even if all we do is accept it, that is not Sola Fide.
On the Feast of St. Olav Haraldson
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 1:00:42 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1765
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
anything at all which involves us rather than God in us, then that detracts from Sola Fide.
Sooner or later, faith involves "us", otherwise it is God believing in Himself, which is ridiculous. So either you are looking at a false definition of Sola Fide, or simply misunderstanding what the Reformers meant.
Calvin, writing in his Institutes "On Justification by Faith" says :"... a man is said to be justified by faith if, having no righteous works of his own, HE APPREHENDS BY FAITH the righteousness of Christ, and being clothed therewith, stands before God not as a sinner but as a righteous person. That is to say justification consists in the remission of sins and the imputation of Christ's righteousness" (Instruction in Christianity, p.174).
Would you fully agree with Calvin on this? I certainly do.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 4:41:25 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
Calvin, writing in his Institutes "On Justification by Faith" says :"... a man is said to be justified by faith if, having no righteous works of his own, HE APPREHENDS BY FAITH the righteousness of Christ, and being clothed therewith, stands before God not as a sinner but as a righteous person. That is to say justification consists in the remission of sins and the imputation of Christ's righteousness" (Instruction in Christianity, p.174).
Would you fully agree with Calvin on this? I certainly do.
I wouldn't. Here's the part that strikes me as heretical, (although I may simply be misreading his writings; I admit, I am no expert on Calvinism):
"having no righteous works of his own"
By wording it like this, it sounds like righteous works aren't necessary for salvation. However, Jesus clearly mentioned that our good deeds will determine if we go with the sheep or the goats. Also, St. James mentions that "faith without works is dead." As far as I see from the scriptures, justification is not an instantaneous process; in fact, we really aren't "saved" and "justified" unless at the end Christ admits us into his kingdom.
Could you better explain Calvin's position?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 5:36:36 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1765
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
I wouldn't. Here's the part that strikes me as heretical, (although I may simply be misreading his writings; I admit, I am no expert on Calvinism):
"having no righteous works of his own"
By wording it like this, it sounds like righteous works aren't necessary for salvation.
That's correct. You'll find more on justification by faith in the thread pertaining to that topic under Salvation Issues.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 9:14:15 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
anything at all which involves us rather than God in us, then that detracts from Sola Fide.
Sooner or later, faith involves "us", otherwise it is God believing in Himself, which is ridiculous. So either you are looking at a false definition of Sola Fide, or simply misunderstanding what the Reformers meant.
Calvin, writing in his Institutes "On Justification by Faith" says :"... a man is said to be justified by faith if, having no righteous works of his own, HE APPREHENDS BY FAITH the righteousness of Christ, and being clothed therewith, stands before God not as a sinner but as a righteous person. That is to say justification consists in the remission of sins and the imputation of Christ's righteousness" (Instruction in Christianity, p.174).
Would you fully agree with Calvin on this? I certainly do.
Dear Ezra,
Depending on one Calvin means by "apprehend" and "imputation" I would agree.
Why can there be only one meaning of Sole Fide?
On the Feast of St. Olav Haraldson
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 9:18:13 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
Calvin, writing in his Institutes "On Justification by Faith" says :"... a man is said to be justified by faith if, having no righteous works of his own, HE APPREHENDS BY FAITH the righteousness of Christ, and being clothed therewith, stands before God not as a sinner but as a righteous person. That is to say justification consists in the remission of sins and the imputation of Christ's righteousness" (Instruction in Christianity, p.174).
Would you fully agree with Calvin on this? I certainly do.
I wouldn't. Here's the part that strikes me as heretical, (although I may simply be misreading his writings; I admit, I am no expert on Calvinism):
"having no righteous works of his own"
By wording it like this, it sounds like righteous works aren't necessary for salvation. However, Jesus clearly mentioned that our good deeds will determine if we go with the sheep or the goats. Also, St. James mentions that "faith without works is dead." As far as I see from the scriptures, justification is not an instantaneous process; in fact, we really aren't "saved" and "justified" unless at the end Christ admits us into his kingdom.
Could you better explain Calvin's position?
Dear ToolmanUF,
Calvin is right when he says that we have no righteous works which justify us, at least initially. I quote from Trent: "And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace."
We part ways soon after that, but we start from the same place.
On the Feast of St. Olav Haraldson
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2005 10:28:41 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1765
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear Ezra,
Depending on one Calvin means by "apprehend" and "imputation" I would agree.
"Apprehend" simply means to understand and grasp with the mind, while "imputation" according to Bible usage is putting to our account something we neither deserve nor merit -- a free gift of God's grace.
quote:
Why can there be only one meaning of Sole Fide?
Because there is only one method of justification.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/30/2005 8:48:20 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear Ezra,
Depending on one Calvin means by "apprehend" and "imputation" I would agree.
"Apprehend" simply means to understand and grasp with the mind, while "imputation" according to Bible usage is putting to our account something we neither deserve nor merit -- a free gift of God's grace.
quote:
Why can there be only one meaning of Sole Fide?
Because there is only one method of justification.
Dear Ezra,
The number of methods of justification does not determine the number of meanings of Sole Fide. For example, to understand that one simply receives justification is one way. To believe that one must "accept and believe" is another. To hold one cooperates with God through the help of His Grace in a process of being more conformed to the likeness of Christ is yet a third.
On the Feast of St. Peter Chrysologus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/31/2005 5:43:22 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1765
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sdaw:
May I repeat again that there is only ONE method of justification and only ONE meaning of Sola Fide: "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3). It is that cut and dried, and it is that simple.
The root problem with Roman Catholicism is that is has complicated "the simplcity of Christ".
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/31/2005 7:31:15 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
sdaw:
May I repeat again that there is only ONE method of justification and only ONE meaning of Sola Fide: "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3). It is that cut and dried, and it is that simple.
The root problem with Roman Catholicism is that is has complicated "the simplcity of Christ".
Dear Erza,
What you term a complication of the simplicity of Christ, I would call an understanding of the richness in Him. Still, it is possible of overcomplicate justification, and some Catholic theologians have done that. Likewise, it is possible to oversimplify the matter, and many Protestants are guilty there. When justification is overcomplicated, one worries needlessly. When it is oversimplified, one does not worry enough. The former might leave you burning in the pit of your stomach, and the latter burning in the Pit.
On the Feast of Saints Peter Quy and Emmanuel Phung
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/31/2005 10:53:55 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
The root problem with Roman Catholicism is that is has complicated "the simplcity of Christ".
We could argue all day of the exact way that justification is achieved, but the question remains:
Does the Roman Catholic Church teach that faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross is necessary for salvation?
The answer is yes, and thus anything else is really just an argument of detail.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/1/2005 4:16:07 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
The root problem with Roman Catholicism is that is has complicated "the simplcity of Christ".
We could argue all day of the exact way that justification is achieved, but the question remains:
Does the Roman Catholic Church teach that faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross is necessary for salvation?
The answer is yes, and thus anything else is really just an argument of detail.
Dear Toolman,
With great regard and respect, the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism vis-a-vis justification are more than just "details".
But, you are right to say that we start from the same place.
On the Feast of St. Alphonsus Ligouri
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/1/2005 1:42:59 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2103
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From: Death to Life
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quote:
the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism vis-a-vis justification are more than just "details"
Ditto...
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/1/2005 3:06:00 PM
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CatholicCritter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism vis-a-vis justification are more than just "details"
Ditto...
Ditto x 2...
_____________________________
http://saintunderconstruction.blogspot.com/
"There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, yet there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." --Archbishop Fulton Sheen
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/1/2005 3:19:17 PM
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silvrstridr
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yup yup, agreed
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/1/2005 4:53:22 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism vis-a-vis justification are more than just "details"
Ditto...
See, I beg to differ (and I worship in both Catholic and Protestant churches, although I am a Catholic convert from Protestantism).
Who ever said that justification is the one big deal about the Christian faith? Isn't it funny how even with all the heresies that were circulating the early Church, none of the creeds felt obligated to mention to exact mechanics of justification? Clearly the early Church fathers viewed things such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Crucifixition as much more important things than the exact wording or time placement when man is justified?
Do Catholics and Protestants not share the majority of their faith together? Can they both not recite all 3 of the ancient, apostolic creeds and agree with them? If so, how can there be that much of a difference between the Catholic and Protestant faiths?
Believe me, I have done a lot of reading on the subject (and I've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church) and I believe that Catholics and Protestants agree on so many issues, that the things that they argue about are really minutiae.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/1/2005 5:13:39 PM
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TheoJunkie
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quote:
Who ever said that justification is the one big deal about the Christian faith?
Well, Luther specifically said it was the issue upon which the Church stands or falls... so that's one person anyway.
quote:
I believe that Catholics and Protestants agree on so many issues, that the things that they argue about are really minutiae
I have also done much reading (including the CCC) on the subject. On the surface, it appears to be the same thing, because both camps say that without Grace no one would be saved.... and I'm a protestant convert from Catholicism... we should get married 
But... it really is more than minutiae.
It's a difference between judicial declaration (imputation-- justified instantly followed by sanctification) and gradual progress (infusion-- not justified until you are sanctified).... and this translates into a difference between it being completely God, or God plus Me.
Right standing right now becuase of Christ despite you.... or not-quite-right standing right now because of you despite Christ.
It's a difference between Grace leading to faith that produces works... or Grace leading to faith and Grace leading to works.
It's a difference between justification based | | | |
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