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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 4:02:24 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 678
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From: Glen Burnie, MD
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To say that the deuterocanonical books were not regarded as canonical until the Council of Trent is quite incorrect. They were affirmed not only in Trent, but in the Council of Rome in 382AD as well as the Councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage III (397 AD).
St. Augustine also wrote in his work, Christian Instruction, "The whole canon of the scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [Son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them"
These are references to the "apocrypha" nearly 1100 years before the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent merely affirmed the Church's teachings from the past millenia.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 4:16:15 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
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From: Washington, DC
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To all of those who don't include the deuterocanonical books in you Bibles, I ask why it occurs that all churches before the Reformation (not just the Roman Catholic Church) include them? (such as the Eastern Orthodox churches, the Coptic churches, and the other ancient apostolic Christian bodies).
Furthermore, who decided which books went in your canon? Why do you accept the 27 books of the New Testament when neither Jesus nor the 12 apostles made of list of which books would be scripture or even hinted at creating a book of faith?
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 5:03:05 PM
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soblessed53
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The Bible Answer Book says Q-How Did the Early Church Recognize which books were canonical?A-There were 5 primary tests that were applied:
1) Was the book written or backed by an apostle?The reasoning being that God would only speak through a man of God. An authorized messenger.
2) Is the book authoratative?In other words,can it be said of this book, as it was said of Jesus;"The people were amazed at his teaching,because he taught as one who had authority,not as teachers of the law"(Mark 1:22) Put another way,does the book ring with the sense of"Thus saith the Lord"?
3)Does the book tell the truth about God as is already known by previous revelation?
4) Does the book give evidence of having the power of God?The reasoning here is that any writing that does not exhibit the transforming power of God in the lives of it's readers could not have come from God. Scripture says that it is"living and active"Heb4:12,2nd Tim 3:16 indicates God's Word has a transforming effect. If the book didn't have the power to change a life,then,it was reasoned it could not have come from God.
5) Was the book accepted by the people of God?It is the norm that God's people,that is the majority,not a faction,will initially recieve God's word as such.
Sounds good to me!
Lurker could you please tell where one could find proof of referrences to the Apocrypha 1100 years before the Council of Trent?
_____________________________
If the Radical Muslims laid down their weapons there would be peace
If the Jews laid down their weapons they would cease to exist
Casual Christians may become Christian Casualties
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[Deleted] - 7/13/2005 8:15:17 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/13/2005 8:20:54 PM
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 8:54:51 PM
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soblessed53
Posts: 98
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
quote:
Lurker could you please tell where one could find proof of referrences to the Apocrypha 1100 years before the Council of Trent?
I believe he did when he referenced the writings of St. Augustin.
In Christ
Oh never heard of such writings,sorry.
_____________________________
If the Radical Muslims laid down their weapons there would be peace
If the Jews laid down their weapons they would cease to exist
Casual Christians may become Christian Casualties
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 9:09:45 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: soblessed53
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
quote:
Lurker could you please tell where one could find proof of referrences to the Apocrypha 1100 years before the Council of Trent?
I believe he did when he referenced the writings of St. Augustin.
In Christ
Oh never heard of such writings,sorry.
Dear soblessed53,
You've never heard of St. Augustine? Please, be my guest. . .http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine.html
On the Feast of St. Henry
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 10:51:11 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 678
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Glen Burnie, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: soblessed53
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
quote:
Lurker could you please tell where one could find proof of referrences to the Apocrypha 1100 years before the Council of Trent?
I believe he did when he referenced the writings of St. Augustin.
In Christ
Oh never heard of such writings,sorry.
Yes. St. Augustine is one of the more direct references. And the three councils I mentioned as well. Sadly, I'm unable to find good links to the writings from these councils online. My Google-fu is weak. =/ Perhaps one of my more knowledgable and resourceful Catholic bretheren can provide a link to writings from those Councils. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 10:52:48 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
I believe he did when he referenced the writings of St. Augustin.
Oh never heard of such writings,sorry.
This is the problem with modern day Protestantism; it has eschewed the past so much that the greatest Christian minds of the ancient Church are unkown to the modern day Christian. Most American Christians can talk about the modern Christian prayer books or life-help books (a la Purpose Driven Life) but none of them have heard about St. Augustine. Or St. Ignatious. Or St. John Crystosom. Or St. Jerome. Or St. Gregory the Great. Or St. Patrick. Or St. Thomas Aquinas.
Sure, modern Christians have read "The Left Behind Series" but how many have read "The Imitation of the Christ" by Thomas à Kempis. Some claim to speak in tongues, but how many have read books by saints who truly experienced God, such as St. John of the Cross or St. Teresa of Avila?
Please, do yourself a favor and read The Confessions by St. Augustine. Not only is it considered one of the Latin classics, but it is perhaps one of the most influential books to the Christian religion after the Bible. And while you're at it, see just which books St. Augustine (a 4th century Christian) believed were inspired and part of the canon.
(Also, don't miss "The Imitation of the Christ". It is the best selling Christian book, after the Bible.)
< Message edited by ToolmanUF -- 7/13/2005 11:05:49 PM >
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 10:59:17 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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By the way, if one wants to see which books were used by Christians throughout the ages, then simply read some Christian literature from throughout Christian history and see which books are quoted. I am certainly not an expert on Christian literature, but I have read some. I know for sure that St. Augustine quoted the deuterocanonical books in the 4th century, and a bit later, so did the famous Irish bishop St. Patrick. In the 1300's they were still being quoted as part of the Bible, as is seen Thomas à Kempis' "The Imitation of the Christ."
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 11:37:21 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: soblessed53
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
quote:
Lurker could you please tell where one could find proof of referrences to the Apocrypha 1100 years before the Council of Trent?
I believe he did when he referenced the writings of St. Augustin.
In Christ
Oh never heard of such writings,sorry.
Yes. St. Augustine is one of the more direct references. And the three councils I mentioned as well. Sadly, I'm unable to find good links to the writings from these councils online. My Google-fu is weak. =/ Perhaps one of my more knowledgable and resourceful Catholic bretheren can provide a link to writings from those Councils. :)
Dear Lurker,
You should study Yahoofu, Grasshopper. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
On the Feast of St. Henry
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/13/2005 11:39:20 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
By the way, if one wants to see which books were used by Christians throughout the ages, then simply read some Christian literature from throughout Christian history and see which books are quoted. I am certainly not an expert on Christian literature, but I have read some. I know for sure that St. Augustine quoted the deuterocanonical books in the 4th century, and a bit later, so did the famous Irish bishop St. Patrick. In the 1300's they were still being quoted as part of the Bible, as is seen Thomas à Kempis' "The Imitation of the Christ."
Dear Toolman,
And, best of all, they are still being quoted as part of the Bible, for that is what they are.
On the Feast of St. Henry
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 1:53:50 AM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1075
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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Forget St. Augustine,
Try the Apostles. There are at least fifty direct or indirect references to material in the Deuterocanonicals found in the pages of the NT.
The position of the Orthodox Church is pretty simple on the whole matter. Only the people of God have any say about what is or is not Scripture for the Spriit abides with them. The OT canon trusted by most Protestants is the product of a cabel of Christ haters in 93 AD who deliberately purged the material they had to exlude that which too clearly pointed to Christ. The Jewish tradtion represented by the LXX translation is fuller and older than than that adopted by the council of Jamnia. Furthermore it was translated when the revelation of God remained with the Jewish people. It was not the work of Christ haters. the LXX was the Scripture most often quoted by Christ and the Apostles and as such it may be taken to be specailly blessed by the Spirit as the baseline text for all OT materials, not the earlier origianl Hebrew or the latter truncated Hebrew tradtion represented at Jamnia. Greek was chosen by God as the language in which His word would be preserved and transmitted, not Hebrew for all its value and not aramahic dispite its scholarly usefulness, not Latin, not German, not Russian, not Chinese or Hindi, but Greek. That is what God chose. Thus whatever academic value scripture texts in earlier or other languages may have it is the LXX of the OT adn the Greek text of the New Testament that is theologically authoritative. And since the LXX as received by the Church includes those books of which some are called deuterocanonical or the apocrypha (some of them the Orthodox Church considers protocanonical) then those books are part of the Scripture of the Church as well. Some of them may not be set as in high regard as others of the OT but that changes nothing as to their belonging to the canon of the Church as Holy Scripture.
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 3:38:19 AM
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soblessed53
Posts: 98
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: U.S.A. Still A Free Society!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: soblessed53
quote:
ORIGINAL: cristoiglesia
quote:
Lurker could you please tell where one could find proof of referrences to the Apocrypha 1100 years before the Council of Trent?
I believe he did when he referenced the writings of St. Augustin.
In Christ
Oh never heard of such writings,sorry.
Dear soblessed53,
You've never heard of St. Augustine? Please, be my guest. . .http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine.html
On the Feast of St. Henry
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
Thank you for the link,I saved the site to check out at a later time. Will also check out"theIimitation Of Christ", however,I thought that I read online that "The Purpose Driven Life" is the hottest seller next to the Bible? Anyway thank you all for the info. In His Love,Chris
_____________________________
If the Radical Muslims laid down their weapons there would be peace
If the Jews laid down their weapons they would cease to exist
Casual Christians may become Christian Casualties
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 4:14:18 PM
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lss44
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I have a question that has arisen from another thread and feel it is best asked on this one.
quote:
"The Bible and Tradition are two streams of one revelation." sdaw
Could someone please explain this?
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 4:22:07 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
I have a question that has arisen from another thread and feel it is best asked on this one.
quote:
"The Bible and Tradition are two streams of one revelation." sdaw
Could someone please explain this?
Dear Iss44,
From the CCC, "II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
On the Feast of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 4:52:36 PM
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lss44
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What is the source of this quote?
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 4:56:42 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
What is the source of this quote?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 4:58:40 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
Thank you for the link,I saved the site to check out at a later time. Will also check out"theIimitation Of Christ", however,I thought that I read online that "The Purpose Driven Life" is the hottest seller next to the Bible? Anyway thank you all for the info. In His Love,Chris
That could be current sales. However, "The Imitation of the Christ" is over 700 years old so it has been around a lot longer than "The Purpose Driven Life". (which i actually enjoyed, BTW)
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 5:09:04 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
What is the source of this quote?
Dear Iss44,
Here is the link: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm
On the Feast of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 5:36:19 PM
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lss44
Posts: 96
Joined: 5/3/2005
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So,
CCC is to Catholicism and the Catholic Bible
as
Book of Mormon is to Mormonism and the Protestant Bible??
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 5:44:54 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
So,
CCC is to Catholicism and the Catholic Bible
as
Book of Mormon is to Mormonism and the Protestant Bible??
Absolutely not. The Catholic Church doesn't consider the Catechism to be inspired in the sense that Mormons do the book of Mormon. It is simply a reference book which can be used to see what the Catholic Church teaches. All devout Catholics should agree with the Catechism 100%, as it is the Catholic faith in a nutshell. (Of course, how can a religion with 1.2 billion followers and a 2,000 year history be compiled into one little book?)
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 6:28:07 PM
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lss44
Posts: 96
Joined: 5/3/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
So,
CCC is to Catholicism and the Catholic Bible
as
Book of Mormon is to Mormonism and the Protestant Bible??
Absolutely not. The Catholic Church doesn't consider the Catechism to be inspired in the sense that Mormons do the book of Mormon. It is simply a reference book which can be used to see what the Catholic Church teaches. All devout Catholics should agree with the Catechism 100%, as it is the Catholic faith in a nutshell. (Of course, how can a religion with 1.2 billion followers and a 2,000 year history be compiled into one little book?)
quote:
"The Bible and Tradition are two streams of one revelation." sdaw
But these two streams of one revelation, wouldn't that be the same as the Mormon's claim?
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 7:23:18 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
But these two streams of one revelation, wouldn't that be the same as the Mormon's claim?
Perhaps you could compare the two religions. But, the difference lies in the fact that the Catholic Church's traditions can be traced back to the apostles themsevles. The Catholic Church's saints and theologians have left volumes of material for us to trace their descent from the original Christian community. On top of that, the Catholic faith maintains all the standard teachings of Christianity and has been loyal to the scriptures and the creeds. She considers the Bible to be the main source of revelation.
The Mormon faith, on the otherhand, cannot be found in history books at all. None of the ancient Church fathers taught Mormon doctrines, none of them named their faith the Mormon faith. However, from the beginnings of Christian history, the Church that Christ established and was built in Rome over the grave of St. Peter, prince of the apostles, has been called the Catholic Church for nearly 2000 years. The Catholic faith, on a secular level, is simply historically truthful while the Mormon faith is a bunch of lies.
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RE: Catholic Vs. Protestant Bible - 7/14/2005 7:26:57 PM
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lss44
Posts: 96
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
But these two streams of one revelation, wouldn't that be the same as the Mormon's claim?
Perhaps you could compare the two religions. But, the difference lies in the fact that the Catholic Church's traditions can be traced back to the apostles themsevles. The Catholic Church's saints and theologians have left volumes of material for us to trace their descent from the original Christian community. On top of that, the Catholic faith maintains all the standard teachings of Christianity and has been loyal to the scriptures and the creeds. She considers the Bible to be the main source of revelation.
The Mormon faith, on the otherhand, cannot be found in history books at all. None of the ancient Church fathers taught Mormon doctrines, none of them named their faith the Mormon faith. However, from the beginnings of Christian history, the Church that Christ established and was built in Rome over the grave of St. Peter, prince of the apostles, has been called the Catholic Church for nearly 2000 years. The Catholic faith, on a secular level, is simply historically truthful while the Mormon faith is a bunch of lies.
Wow, was Christ in Rome?
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