|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 10:47:06 PM
|
|
|
gatolover
Posts: 564
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi, SovereignIsHe,
Any comment on 1Pet. 3:21?
You seem to think yourself an authority on Catholic teaching, so surely you know we believe God has bound salvation to His Sacraments but He, Himself, is not bound by them. IOW, next time you or I are hanging on a cross next to Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, we could only hope that He might afford us His Gracious Salvation in His Infinite Mercy, just as He did the "good" [read REPENTANT] thief.
quote:
Of course the same church says a person on a island who never hears the word of God can be saved by living a good life...
Source, please?
Peace,
gatolover
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 12:47:31 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 656
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
As previously noted, I will not be discussing baptism by request of the moderator to stay on topic.
quote:
That really makes little sense. On the one hand you admit you really can't interpret accurately but even with that you feel obliged and empowered to reject and judge the very teachers you claim all have????
I believe with the help of the Holy Spirit that I am quite capable of interpreting accurately. See, Protestants don't believe we do this on our own power, we believe that if we ask God, He will make things clear to us. Sometimes that's through other people, sometimes that's through our own reading.
quote:
So the next time Zhi makes a mistake and sins you should be evicted from your church. This concept that somehow members of "the church" must remain perfect is counter to what the bible shows. And where do you get this "so many"? What about the many good Popes? And like other human being they sin, but the amazing thing is that the doctrine of Church hasn't changed despite "all" these terrible people. The Church is much bigger than any one individual or their sins. Jesus did hire the man who would hand Him over right?
None of us claim infallability, so we don't claim to be perfect. The important part is whether we're repentant when we sin.
Are you implying that Jesus made a mistake?
I'm still not sure why you think the RCC hasn't changed. It demonstrably has. One of the main reasons for the Great Schism was the fact that the RCC decided to go and change the Nicene Creed.
quote:
This method is completely unbiblical unless you can show where Paul is rejected by individuals and yet Paul says "oh thats ok, you should work it out for yourself and not listen to me."
No problem.
Acts 17:10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
The Bereans didn't just listen to Paul and accept it, they checked it against Scripture. For this, they are called "noble".
quote:
And its really not impossible since many protestants have converted and some would say the best and brightest.
And many of the best and brightest RCC have converted too.
quote:
When we see that the current successor has been working hard to more or less let child molesters off the hook, it merely confirms our opinion.
That is of course complete poppy-cock.
The religious figure formerly known as Cardinal Ratzinger was personally responsible for issuing an update to the 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis giving specific instructions on how to cover up sex scandals. He was named as a defendent in the Patino-Arango lawsuit, but managed to evade the court by being declared, after a request from Vatican representatives, judicially immune due to his position as head of state of the Vatican. Bishops like Dupre, O'Connell, and Soens have admitted to raping multiple children, yet they retain their titles and the financial support of the RCC and have retired in luxury while Benedict refuses to allow them to be prosecuted or even to be stripped of their rank in the RCC. Benedict had Cardinal Roger Mahoney, who was directly involved in priest shuffling and controls the diocese that has paid out $660 million in settlements to victims, as part of his entourage while visiting this country.
So, which part of that, exactly, is poppycock? Other than the fact that a pope would do things like that.
quote:
Again don't focue on individaul experiences since man is well...man. Of course I would encourage to read the lives of Catholic saints as that is one of the many reasons people experience a conversion of heart. Yes people sin, but there are numerous "success" stories of supernatural faith. There are protestant churchs that do endorse and teach sin--homosexuality, abortion ok, etc--please direct me where the Church teaches a sin is no longer a sin.
Sure there are. There are also Catholic churches like that. The most obvious being Most Holy Redeemer parish in San Franscisco (you know, the place where Archbishop Niederauer got in trouble for giving Communion to two men dressed as nuns last October), which heavily endorses homosexuality. There is an entire organization for pro-choice Catholics. 27% of women getting an abortion in 2005 identified themselves as Catholics.
quote:
No you have leader who you sit in judgement of based on your own confessed flawed interpritation and hence you are being "papal" and so technically you are a "Zhi-Christian" because you follow your own "teaching" on matters of faith.
I can be confident that I'm relying on God's own Word as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I am hardly alone in my interpretation. It is not my teaching that I'm following, but the teaching of Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, and all those men who wrote the Bible as it was breathed by God, and the teaching of great modern day theologians like Billy Graham and R.C. Sproll. I feel much more comfortable doing that than following a man who claims that I must listen to tradition over Scripture.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 1:37:14 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1979
Status: offline
|
quote:
the student cannot be the teacher. The follower cannot be the leader.
Agreed. That is why God has appointed the Holy Spirit as the Divine Teacher and the Lord Jesus Christ as the Divine Shepherd.
That automatically excludes the Pope. The concept you propose has some merit. But the execution of that concept has been a disaster.
Under the Great Shepherd are His undershepherds who rely on His Word to provide the Truth, and rely on His Teacher to lead them into all Truth. Their duties are to feed and warn the flock. If they fail in their tasks, God is still in control.
So, are you depending on the Divine Teacher and the Divine Shepherd, or are you depending on the human substitutes who have done a rather good job of misleading their flock?
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/7/2008 1:44:27 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 2:36:32 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3141
Status: offline
|
quote:
What makes people think that they alone are the fittest to discern their own faith, rather than assent to a known authority (whether that be a knowledgable and properly trained and prepared pastor, or whether it be the Catholic Church)? What makes you think "people" don't assent to a known authority? A consistent strawman you are forever building. One has to wonder why there is such fear of looking to Scripture?
quote:
I see this as both arrogant and misguided; I have an 8 to 5 job in the secular world; I want pastoral leadership from someone else, who's 8 to 5 job is to instruct me in my faith and its practices. I see it as misguided, arrogant and disobedient to God when one refuses to do as He says because one is too "busy" "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." and "...that I might meditate in thy word."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 2:38:10 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3141
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
Further evidence of contradictory RC explanations of their own doctrines
Not at all, because if the article is read closely there is no implication that indulgences can obtain salvation or that a person is released from purgatory.
Otis
Yep, definitely "all" so I will repeat what is true: "further evidence of contradictory RC explanations of their own doctrines."
No one ever claimed indulgences "saved" anyone only that they get them released sooner from purgatory - and they do - by getting years chopped off their sentence.
I've read a lot of ridiculous things in my life; but, none more so than new advents "explanation" of purgatory and indulgences.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 2:39:16 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3141
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: shalada
It bothers me that Jesus said to call no man Father except God. What justification is there for calling the Pope father in the light of this Scripture? And I would also like to know why, if we are all priests through Jesus death and resurrection and He is our High Priest who intercedes for us - then why is confession to a priest necessary? why do Catholics pray to or go through Mary? Seems that it would be easier to go to the High Priest without all the "middle-men". Besides, it might lose something in the journey by going through so many others.
Good point. And what's even more sinful is the pope allows himself to be addressed as "Holy Father" which is how Jesus Christ addresses God the Father in Heaven.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. -John 17:11
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 2:40:16 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3141
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
Since a Protestant considers him or herself responsible to ensure that the leaders he or she is following are correct and consistent in their teaching (both in what they say and how they live), it is basically impossible for us to accept that apostolic succession
This method is completely unbiblical... Rather, what is truly unbiblical is your method of assenting to every unbiblical doctrine that comes down the pike in your church.
The Bereans checked what the Apostle Paul was preaching to see if it was true to Scripture. Those in the Jerusalem church, James specifically, consulted Scripture to see if what Peter said was true. Only RCs refuse to study Scripture for themselves to see if what they're taught is really true. So, in point of fact, it is they who remain in violation of scriptural principles.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 2:42:21 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3141
Status: offline
|
quote:
The religious figure formerly known as Cardinal Ratzinger was personally responsible for issuing an update to the 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis giving specific instructions on how to cover up sex scandals. He was named as a defendent in the Patino-Arango lawsuit, but managed to evade the court by being declared, after a request from Vatican representatives, judicially immune due to his position as head of state of the Vatican. Bishops like Dupre, O'Connell, and Soens have admitted to raping multiple children, yet they retain their titles and the financial support of the RCC and have retired in luxury while Benedict refuses to allow them to be prosecuted or even to be stripped of their rank in the RCC. Benedict had Cardinal Roger Mahoney, who was directly involved in priest shuffling and controls the diocese that has paid out $660 million in settlements to victims, as part of his entourage while visiting this country. Oh, wow is this all true? Actual evidence the present pope was personally involved in the hiding and the support of child molesters? And they tried to tell us all the evil popes were in the Middle Ages.....
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 5:47:50 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 739
Joined: 8/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
The religious figure formerly known as Cardinal Ratzinger was personally responsible for issuing an update to the 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis giving specific instructions on how to cover up sex scandals. This document describes the "due process" required to investigate an accusation of solicitation by a Priest in a confessional. I am not aware that Ratzinger was the author or issuer of this document, but may have had a hand in its development, given his position in the Church at the time. The letter was issued by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani.
What is the source of your "fact" you stated in your post? The purpose of secrecy in the proceedings is to protect the good names of the people involved until such time that guilt may be established through due process, rather than through a knee-jerk rush to judgment after limited investigation. Some fools interpret the secrecy requirement as equivalent to a cover up, except that the secrecy does not extend to the accuser or victim, except to facts that were learned exclusively at trial and are not personal knowledge or facts already made public regarding the trial.
This peculiar slant to the content of the letter was part of a BBC production in 2006, which was clearly after cashing in on the sentiments about the Church by some in a sensationalized version of the process.
I also have an opinion that in this age of 20 different "News Channels" of competing businesses, there will be from time to time "news generation" by some of these organization in attempts to drum up journalistic activity, whereas 30 years ago, the press would be more responsible. The Church scandals are the "great white whale" of this generation, just like Watergate was for the last one.
Just because you see it on TV doesn't make it true.
The Code of Canon Law was updated in 1983 (the one in use at the time in 1962 was the 1917 version).
What his has to do with the Pope is difficult to see...
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 8:41:42 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 498
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
Thank -you Gatolover,
They melt my heart and have teach me a lot of deep things which are very spiritual. Let it be known I did rebel to the use of those words of Na-na& Pa-pa yet God has taught. to become more humble every day.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 11:51:56 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 656
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
Actually I don't get any television channels whatsoever up here (I don't have cable TV and the mountains make it impossible to get air signals). So, no, I didn't see it on TV. I got the information from written commentary by Father Tom Doyle, who was a Vatican lawyer until he was fired for criticizing the Vatican's handling of these sex crimes.
I find it interesting that you do not address the fact that admitted child molesters are still considered in high standing in your church (see the 3 bishops I listed, there are others) and are still being supported by your money. Your pope states that the molestations are a terrible thing, while apparently not doing anything about the molesters, though as head of your church it is his responsibility to clean house, so to speak. Does this fact not bother you?
What's the point of having a pope when he apparently doesn't enforce the doctrines that are supposed to keep you united, when he does nothing while his own lieutenants are doing horrific things to children?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 1:43:17 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1465
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I also have an opinion that in this age of 20 different "News Channels" of competing businesses, there will be from time to time "news generation" by some of these organization in attempts to drum up journalistic activity, whereas 30 years ago, the press would be more responsible. The Church scandals are the "great white whale" of this generation, just like Watergate was for the last one.
I am with you, DH.
Media is, to use a biblical word, a Whore. It produces a product that sells best. This is how the world of media works. 90% of their stuff is perfectly sellable, nicely packaged bologna.
Established that allow me to say though:
Regardless of media’s methods , the law suites and negative budgets of parishes are real thing, there is no question about that. Bernard Law who was too big of a scumbag even for USA - even with all it’s greatness USA is not the poster child of morality- and whose cardinal's rump was kicked out.. got Pope John Paul 2 providing safe haven for him. That is a documented fact.
quote:
What this has to do with the Pope is difficult to see... What did Pope (any Pope) do to condemn such atrocities ?
As an honest Christian I ought to say praises to media as well - If it wouldn’t be for them focusing everybody’s attention on the issue many kids would still be in grave danger.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 1:52:47 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1465
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
If the pastor is to instruct you as to the finer points of Scripture, and you are then going to test his words to you against Scriptures, then
A) either he is not teaching you anything and you have no need for a pastor, as you may already test his instruction against your own interpretation, and may discard his instruction in the event of a conflict with your own personal interpretation;
Not quite. Protestants are not claiming "We don’t need no... Education" 
It’s rather like this:
1 choosing a doctor doesn’t mean we know how to cure the skin rash or operate on eyes. But If I were to see the dentist being drunk, or not washing his hands,or walking in wearing speedos with a spiky leather belt in his hand when I went to have a wisdom tooth pulled yesterday..Even without being able to judge his skills in the medical area ,I could judge his adequacy as a doctor based on those warning signs.
2 I fully trust the chef with my order - but if I see cutesy little mice travelling around the restaurant and helping themselves in the kitchen, I wont eat there..
3 Governmentally issued Rules for passengers in case of terrorist hijacking a plane is to obey the terr.-s requests and “not try to be a hero” so you dont jeopardize yours and others life, it’s a very wise advice – but on Sept 11, group of people on a 3rd flight chose to ignore the rules.
Where I am getting with this – obeying authorities is very commendable. But we need to use common sense and private judgement. Young (catholic and non catholic) kids are NOW finally being taught not to trust their pastor, be on alert if he does something to them and not obey blindly – this common sense rule unfortunately is too late for many who suffered from sexual molestations.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 1:55:36 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1465
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Bereans checked what the Apostle Paul was preaching to see if it was true to Scripture. Those in the Jerusalem church, James specifically, consulted Scripture to see if what Peter said was true. Only RCs refuse to study Scripture for themselves to see if what they're taught is really true. So, in point of fact, it is they who remain in violation of scriptural principles.
Oh. that's what i was trying to basically say with the whole meghillah in my prev. post.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 6:43:18 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 739
Joined: 8/25/2007
Status: offline
|
I find the harboring of criminals indefensible for anyone or any organization, however, there were also cases of false accusations and people attempting to extort or otherwise cash-in on the proceedings. Due process must be allowed to work before action can be taken - its only fair to allow the accused to confront the accuser at a trial of the facts. This is English common law and is the system upon which our American system of justice is based.
Just because you don't like Priests doesn't mean you get to lump them into a different category and remove due process from their cases.
For every story that was widely published about a Bishop relocating a Priest, there were a hundred unpublished stories about Priests being handed over to local authorities by Bishops, as well as Priests falsely accused by shady lawyers looking at deep pockets.
Many are simply satisfied to judge "guilty" without the burden of due process.
And none of these actions has anything to do with the conveyance and instruction of doctrine. It only speaks to the incompetence of the leadership in administrative and public relations matters, perhaps.
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 6:59:22 PM
|
|
|
texastweet
Posts: 362
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Protestants don't believe we do this on our own power, we believe that if we ask God, He will make things clear to us.
Zhi,
And nobody else can ask for this power? How about if I old you I get a personal messge from Jesus every night and He told me you are in error? Well that is essentially what you are claiming like others around here, who's answer to questions amounts to unsubstantiated divine revelation.
quote:
The Bereans didn't just listen to Paul and accept it, they checked it against Scripture. For this, they are called "noble".
Actually the Thessalonians are the one you want to show as an example because the searched and debated with Paul and rejected his new interpritation of the OT. And FYI, the Bereans were noble because they were open minded to the new oral traditions Paul was talking about. It has nothing to do with checking scripture because that is the common ground of Paul and both communities. And as Jews they examined scripture often.
quote:
The most obvious being Most Holy Redeemer parish
You admit yourself that has been criticized and again these our essentially individual sins if you will and is not official Church teaching.
quote:
I feel much more comfortable doing that than following a man who claims that I must listen to tradition over Scripture.
Well the Church doesn't put tradition of scripture and I would say the protestantism puts the individual over the bible.
Otis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 8:32:54 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1102
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What makes you think "people" don't assent to a known authority? A consistent strawman you are forever building. One has to wonder why there is such fear of looking to Scripture?
If scripture was searched diligently, it would become clear that several very dear Catholic practices are contrary to God's will. That just would not be good! That's why when this actually comes up, they say it's because the past 'fathers' of their church dictated that it was factual, so this 'Bible', constructed by fallible humans, is not as authoritative as the 'Traditions handed down by the apostles'. It's rather convenient for them!
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/8/2008 12:58:24 AM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 8:47:19 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1102
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
For every story that was widely published about a Bishop relocating a Priest, there were a hundred unpublished stories about Priests being handed over to local authorities by Bishops...
...and thousands of untold stories by men, women, and children who were too afraid, embarrassed, and ashamed to say anything about it... Some were blatantly TOLD by the leadership that they would keep their mouths shut about being abused, because of 'all the good' being done by that particular priest, bishop, or whatever... If that doesn't 'take' intimidation is used...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 8:49:09 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1831
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Why do we need a Pope?
Someone has to wear those funny hats...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/7/2008 9:22:02 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1831
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Hi, SovereignIsHe,
Any comment on 1Pet. 3:21?
Sorry but symbolism doesn't save you... Though understanding where you come from I can understand your lean to icon and symbolism...
quote:
You seem to think yourself an authority on Catholic teaching, so surely you know we believe God has bound salvation to His Sacraments but He, Himself, is not bound by them. IOW, next time you or I are hanging on a cross next to Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, we could only hope that He might afford us His Gracious Salvation in His Infinite Mercy, just as He did the "good" [read REPENTANT] thief.
Nothing about the salvation of the thief is outside the clear plan of salvation laid out in the Word of God... He was raised from the dead like any other sinner...
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
When He so chooses to bring about the manifesatation of salvation doesn't exclude the plan of Salvation and the fact that all the Father has given to Him, not one will He lose... Even a thief/murderer... A very nice display of unmerited favor...
quote:
Of course the same church says a person on a island who never hears the word of God can be saved by living a good life...
Source, please?
Peace,
gatolover
8 years of Catholic School...
The Catholic Church believes that those who die never hearing of Christ but have sought the truth and does the will of God as they understand it can be saved. Something about the Baptism of Desire... It's been awhile...
It's spelled out in the Vatican II... There is even some great stuff about Moslems worshipping the same God, (and get this) waiting for His day of Judgment... Now that is funny when you consider that Moslems deny Christ, the Judge… There is even stuff about the “good” in Hinduism and so on...
Heh... Just like when I was school... Scoring higher on RCC religious tests than the Catholics ... 
John
|
|
|
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
Maybe it was the pain meds clouding your judgement. 
Seriously I hope you are feeling better wisdom teeth are no fun to have pulled! 
for every decent lawyer there are 10 crooked