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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 3:31:28 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
K : I suppose it wouldn't hurt to start with all the money RC fleeced from poor naive people with its "get out of purgatory sooner card"....aka, indulgences.
The scam as old as the world :) Efficiently selling something to prevent(or diminish) something that doesn’t really exist; and if it did it’s not in human power to fix it by selling each other a piece of paper. Especially works well if played on such universal feelings as guilt, etc. It’s latest version is called "fighting global warming".
In the modern "indulgence" of the carbon offset scam, you pay Al Gore's company to offset the global damage done by your greedy waste of precious energy. This is comparable to the ecclesiastical system of indulgences. You pay someone else to do the good works demanded of you for the temporal punishment of your sins. One eases the conscience of the greedy energy waster; the other eases the fear of the sinner.
Just as swapping money to plant a tree does nothing to affect a non-existent climate change perpetrated by "greedy" man; neither does the swapping of indulgences affect a non-existent stay in a non-existent place.
But, hey, it's really not such a bad tradeoff, afterall - the pains of purgatory are substituted for the pains of hell. RC takes away eternal punishment from the sinner; but, re-imposes a lesser punishment which it then graciously takes away in whole or in part by its indulgences.
I don't know if this whole business of indulgences is still as big a money-maker as it was when it was invented in the 13th century. It's certainly just as popular, though, because of a relatively recent papal bull Incarnationis Mysterium. Apparently, the substitution of "good works" for money is what the modern popes indulge in. RCs present pope issued "get out of purgatory sooner cards" to those showing up at Lourdes. As far as I know, this didn't cost the pilgrim any "extra" money - just the cost of what, in many cases, was very expensive travel arrangements.
The object, of course, is to maintain dependence on RC's sacramental ecclesiastical system. Hey, without our indulgences you and those you hold dear will suffer an extended stay in a chamber of horrors. Enough to scare anyone and keep you solidly in your pew.....
In any event, Odeliya, add to your "treasury" of good works, maybe you'll get to sell them someday. Then again, it won't work for us since we've been officially, authoritatively and "infallibly" anathematized by Trent....again...lol
RC does have one thing correct concerning the remission of temporal punishment - its sacrament of Penance has no effect on this either.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 7:24:20 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
You expect my judgement of CC doctrine not to be affected by the presence of molesters among RC pastors and bad Popes –
I presume in return I can expect your judgement of P doctrine not be affected by the presence of benny hinns and other greedy WoFers in the protestant midst.
Fair?
I suppose I am not making my point with this comparison very well. And I get a side to this now that I didn't get before in reading your response.
I don't wear a Rolex, nor am I a child molester. I am, however, a spiritual person of faith, seeking the fullest and completest and most accurate set of instruction and the fullest support for the practice and development of my faith that I can get.
As a first step, I will say that I am the type of person who leverages capability. I know by now in life what I am good at, what I am not so good at, and where I stand in the general pile of humanity out there. That comes with maturity and life experience. So, I seek a compliment to my skills and my interests, and a means to leverage my time, especially in the area of spiritual development; a matter in which I profess no expertise.
When I consider Priests, I see people who literally - in most cases - own nothing, outside of a few clothes and maybe a car (usually an embarrassingly humble 8 year old sub-compact with 89,000 miles on it - most likely provided by a Parishioner like me...). I have to consider that those, in this day and age, who seek the ministry are not interested, or do not appear to be interested, in a material motive. This is a general statement, and as I have previously said, I have an uncle who is a Priest, so maybe I have some personal insight into this that others do not.
When I consider agenda in this observation, it leads me to a view of people who are not vaildated, or remain relatively un-affected (unswerved, un-influenced, unmolded and un-formed) by materials, and seem to be more set upon something larger and of a more spirtual level. In this lack of affectation, I see grace, and this grace I see peace and comfort. It leads me to a conclusion that these people "get it" in a way that a secular, capitalist soul like myself don't get it (although I profess that my faith does humble me to drive a Ford Explorer and not something made in Germany, which is indeed an option for me...)
I have never personally met, seen or known of any Priest ever even accused of abuse of anyone (women, minors, men, etc.) and in my life, I have crossed paths with literally hundreds of Priests. I have read about some incidents (just as everyone else has) that happened 20 years ago, but have not had any personal experience with this at all. In my Diocese, there has never been a single accusation of improprietry by a minister. There are many in our Diocese who do not like the Bishop in my Diocese, because he doesn't come across very well, but other than that, there is a pretty good moral and spritual authority in these people as far as I am concerned - they look like material stuff doesn't matter so much, which I give kudos to in a Chistian ministry (Jesus didn't own anything either...)
I can contrast that with my personal experience with non-Catholic ministry.
I can tell you about shopping for a house 15 years ago - and I was looking at 3,500 squre feet and up. My wife and I viewed a house that belonged to the pastor of one of the Baptist Churches in the small town in which I live. We were first impressed that this man (who's wife did not work) was able to afford such a nice house and was indeed in this price range of dwelling (4 car garage, 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, two living areas, two dining areas, and a gameroom). While looking at the house, we got to the bedroom closet. I have never seen so many men's shoes in one place in all my life - except at Dillard's or Macy's. There were about as many $600 suits hanging in there as pairs of shoes.
Maybe this was inherited money? Maybe there was some explaination?
Then there was the time my brother was getting married (yes, outside of the Catholic Church...) at the Methodist Church in the nearest big city. I was the best man. When I went to get the marriage certificate/license signed by the minister, his sleeve on his $600 suit slid up as he extended his hand to write, and there was the solid gold Rolex Day-Date, with a diamond bezel staring up at me from his wrist.
Then there was the time when my son was attending the university and was in a fraternity. The son of the pastor of one of the large "Six-Flags-over-Jesus" evangelical non-denoms was joining the fraternity at the same time. This 18 year old kid was driving a Porsche Carrera - apparently a graduation present from pop.
I wouldn't drone on about this example if it wasn't so solidly reinforced in my brain each and every time I cross paths with these folks. My wife's aunt attends the large Pentecostal Church in our city - her pastor, who did not even graduate from high school, owns a 4,000 square foot house on the lake.
So - what is the motive here? Is it charity? Is it humility? Is it being un-affected and untouched by baubles? Is it being seeking validation in something other than impressing fellow men regarding the amount of toys and material possessions that can be accumulated?
And if this is the mindset and motive of the pastoral leadership, what then can we expect from the congregants? My personal rule of thumb is that the pastor of the Church shold be no better off materially than the least materially blessed congregant or parishioner. If you want to wear a Rolex and drive a Porsche, go be a cardiac surgeon or a CEO of a large company, or a high-powered attorney and earn your material. Don't get it by squeezing and guilt-tripping your congregation for donations, not paying a dime of income tax on the money gathered, and then go buy yourself a fat, gluttonous lifestyle. It says to everyone -"I am not validated by the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life, but by all this earthly material that I have to surround myself with..."
Sorry to rant...I thought it needed to be said. Pope John Paul II died owning pretty much nothing personal. He wore borrowed clothes, he used borrowed resources. The "stuff" of the Catholic Church belongs to me - the common parishioner - and it belongs to every other parishioner who has ever donated money to the Church.
And the parishoners have never bought the Pope a jet-boat.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/15/2008 4:10:37 PM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 4:15:54 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I don't see Catholic Church here in America parading a figure of Mary on the cross as if she was Christ through the streets Do you have it on good authority that this is actually done with the Church's blessing, and approved by the local Parish and Diocese? Or are you just assuming that?
This is probably just a bunch of over-the-top-zealots acting on their own volition, and displaying their own over-enthusiasm, to the chagrin of the local pastor.
You say this as if the Catholic Church organizes these events and puts them on. I attend Mass every week, which is presided over by the Priest. I attend the Church picnic each year, which is hosted by the woman's club. I don't hold the pastor accountable for the activities organized by the woman's club, nor do I claim that the Church is 9instructing anything specific if someone shows up with German Chocolate Bundt cake.
One is within the authority of the Church, and the other is outside of that authority.
As far as marinating the Pope against the effects of evil Spirits - I don't know, I haven't heard the whole story. I assume that this is a local custom that the Pope would choose to participate in as a gesture of unity and goodwill. I don't find in the catechism where I am now to subject myself to herbal marinating to ward off evil spirits. And the track record of the Church and of Pope John Paul II are both pretty stellar ni my mind. I am more than willing to give JP II the benfit of the doubt that this was a display of Vatican unity and friendliness.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 7:10:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3825
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Do you have it on good authority that this is actually done with the Church's blessing, and approved by the local Parish and Diocese? Or are you just assuming that?
It was reported as coming from the church...
quote:
This is probably just a bunch of over-the-top-zealots acting on their own volition, and displaying their own over-enthusiasm, to the chagrin of the local pastor.
Doubtful given the over the top veneration given to Mary by the Hispanic culture...
quote:
You say this as if the Catholic Church organizes these events and puts them on. I attend Mass every week, which is presided over by the Priest. I attend the Church picnic each year, which is hosted by the woman's club. I don't hold the pastor accountable for the activities organized by the woman's club, nor do I claim that the Church is 9instructing anything specific if someone shows up with German Chocolate Bundt cake.
One is within the authority of the Church, and the other is outside of that authority.
Like I said, the church you can speak of is the one you attend...
quote:
As far as marinating the Pope against the effects of evil Spirits - I don't know, I haven't heard the whole story. I assume that this is a local custom that the Pope would choose to participate in as a gesture of unity and goodwill. I don't find in the catechism where I am now to subject myself to herbal marinating to ward off evil spirits. And the track record of the Church and of Pope John Paul II are both pretty stellar ni my mind. I am more than willing to give JP II the benfit of the doubt that this was a display of Vatican unity and friendliness.
That's fine, but the word of God doesn't grant one the benefit of the doubt on such matters and it's quite clear that such rituals are evil and are to be avoided... Hard to fathom that someone who is supposes to be an example would partake... As for Pope John Paul II and the church, given he was at the helm while the church was playing shell games with child rapist, stellar isn't a word that comes to mind, more like complicity...
John
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 7:43:17 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1905
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
It is entriely possible that some of our Catholic brethren are unaware that most Protestants are *not* WOF or Joel Osteenites. That is due to to the fact that the media seems to promote them as the norm 
I do not think Dog or anyone else is intentionally painting all Protestants with that brush--but you do have to admit that is what is portrayed on television.
The worst of everything is what is broadcast as ordinary...
There is a point to that, I think--believe what Dog says about his church and let him believe you about yours 
We should take the advice of this wise woman, DH, I think, she shot on goal.
Indeed, in modern Hollywood possessed culture many derive their opinions from TV and thus have a wrong and very subjective opinion about the Catholics and CC, mistaking them for just a bunch of sexualmolesters and Protestants for getRichthru religion scammers.
Let’s just trust each other that there are decent, godly churches among the denominations ( C and P) that you and I belong to.
Being poor doesn’t yet mean one such pastor is not a promoter of heresies. A pastor of the church I go to at home is wealthy (his family owns a construction business) and yet very humble and modest. It is what in your heart that counts. While we ( C and P) totally disagree on theology I still learn a lot from catholic resources and see Christ daily in my very dear catholic friend. So on my part I gladly give you the benefit of the doubt and honestly believe you that your parish is very decent. Please answer the questions in my previous post to you about criteria for false teachers. Ok, you stated greed, etc., that’s one, what else?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 7:46:35 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
.........we've been officially, authoritatively and "infallibly" anathematized by Trent....again...lol
;) weren’t we given an amnesty later by someone? and when the ecumenism became fashionable we were let back in kinda calmly , thru the back door I thought? All the respectful catholic brethren i nagged about this affirmed me that we protestants can be saved outside of the Catholic Church. JohnPaul II was adamant promoting love and peace among brothers of all faiths , no? ....
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 9:27:40 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
I don't see Catholic Church here in America parading a figure of Mary on the cross as if she was Christ through the streets,
Yes this did make the news but if its the event I'm thinking about the figure of a women on a cross is a depitction of a local martyr who was actually crucifide by her attackers. So does that make you feel better?
quote:
That's fine, but the word of God doesn't grant one the benefit of the doubt on such matters and it's quite clear that such rituals are evil and are to be avoided
You mean like story in the bible of people using the cloth of St Paul to get cures. Now I don't know the details of this herbal story, but like your "Mary" story and your hiding priest innuendos, there is most likely more to the story and likely to contain some facts.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/15/2008 11:20:27 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
We should take the advice of this wise woman, DH, I think, she shot on goal.
"...her lightest touch commands obedience..." - seems to me I heard that in movie somewhere...
I'll get back to your answer tomorrow, its late here in my world...
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 3:28:50 AM
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kelman
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quote:
The "stuff" of the Catholic Church belongs to me - the common parishioner - and it belongs to every other parishioner who has ever donated money to the Church. Let's see if you can get your hands on some of the Vatican's 15 billion.
The Vatican threatened to bring Italy to its financial knees rather than pay any tax on their rather substantial wealth. Ah, can't you just feel their love and compassion?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 3:33:01 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
.........we've been officially, authoritatively and "infallibly" anathematized by Trent....again...lol
;) weren’t we given an amnesty later by someone? and when the ecumenism became fashionable we were let back in kinda calmly , thru the back door I thought? All the respectful catholic brethren i nagged about this affirmed me that we protestants can be saved outside of the Catholic Church. JohnPaul II was adamant promoting love and peace among brothers of all faiths , no? ....
That's why all this silliness about "infallibility" is so absurd. Pope after pope proclaimed salvation can only be had within RC. Some time later, the popes say......."oh, well, nevermind"....lol
But, all those anathemas?....nope, they've never been removed. Actually, I'm glad they never were, afterall......"laughter is the best medicine".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 6:35:55 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Like I said, the church you can speak of is the one you attend... Sage advice, I'd say...does this mean you can't authoritatively speak for ANY Catholic Church? And maybe have to take the word of those who are in communion with this faith body, rather than what you might see on a 20 second sound-bite on CNN or Fox News?
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 8:06:08 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 544
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
The "stuff" of the Catholic Church belongs to me - the common parishioner - and it belongs to every other parishioner who has ever donated money to the Church. Let's see if you can get your hands on some of the Vatican's 15 billion.
The Vatican threatened to bring Italy to its financial knees rather than pay any tax on their rather substantial wealth. Ah, can't you just feel their love and compassion?
Do you have a citation for either the first or second claim? Although, I must admit, if the Vatican does have $15 billion, it is a far cry from the trillions that Papa claimed. Of course, there is only one thing that is consistent about the claims people make about the Vatican's alleged wealth: it is very consistent that nobody who makes such a claim is ever interested in the truth. I have yet to see anyone back up their claims.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 11:50:03 AM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Tell me, is it wrong to honour Our Lord by offering to Him great works of art and sharing them with the faithful?
I'm pretty sure that the Third-World Catholic child who hasn't eaten anything for 3 days would have an emphatic answer for you...
However, I'm relatively certain it wouldn't be very pleasing to the art admirers here, such as yourself, who just happen to have eaten today...
3 times Christ reminded Peter to feed His sheep. Like it or not, this DOES include more than 'spiritual food'. But, we cannot have this thought plaguing us too often, or we might have to downgrade the lifestyle of the leaders of the 'Church', and "Peter's seat" wouldn't be so grand as it is...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 11:59:20 AM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
The Vatican certainly does own some artwork. What amount it would bring on the open market is anyone's guess. Now of course, if we had no art whatsoever in society, the poor would have more to eat wouldn't they? So you are saying that art, always and everywhere is frivolous and a true Christian should never own anything above and beyond the bare minimum needed for survival? I'm not saying there shouldn't be art in the world. What I am saying is that those who have been SPECIFICALLY charged by Jesus Christ Himself with taking care of the needs of the poor (insert 'church leaders here) have no right to hang on to it while there is even one starving or homeless child in the world. A steward of the church who takes Jesus Christ even a little bit seriously would have those pieces of art on the auction block so fast it would make your head spin... Then we would know exactly how much they would fetch, wouldn't we? 
quote:
Certainly there are churches all over the world, but of course, the churches are not owned by the Vatican. So they should not count as part of the Vatican's wealth. In a previous post, around September or so of last year, I did a calculation that assumed each parish in the world owned $1 million worth of property. Clearly a generous assumption, given the poor countries have property worth very little. The estimated value of that property was $218 billion, which is a very far cry from the trillions that people like you claim. So I'll retract 'trillions' and replace it with 'billions'. Why THAT certainly tosses the 'Church' into the poorhouse! As to all the other buildings that are 'not stewarded' by the Vatican: Maybe I'll grab my camcorder, find a homeless person and offer him $20 to walk into one of these fine looking Roman Catholic Church buildings on a Sunday morning, and I'll post the video of the type of treatment this guy receives from the 'emissaries of Christ'. (I might just spend a few Sundays doing just that... then we'll all know. PS103, please let me know where I might be able to post something like this.)
quote:
Are you willing to live by the same standard. Are you willing to move out of your house and into a cardboard box so that poor people can have a nicer place to stay.
I DO hold myself to the same standard! We don't have to live in boxes to properly steward God's resources! I don't live in a box, but the house I live in is humble. (Appraised currently at $37,000. A far cry from the $300,000 place I just sold...) I cover my bills, and the majority of what remains goes to those in need. I inherited some spectacular art from my (Catholic) father... Those pieces that have value have been sold, or are being sold. When they do sell, I don't live selfishly. That money isn't mine: It belongs to God, and I don't think He wants me spending it on me... so I don't!quote:
quote:
You know very well that I cannot specifically quantify the value of the assets the pope is the steward of. Yet only a fool would believe that it doesn't reach into the billions of dollars.
Then why did you make the claim? What kind of example does that set when you make a claim and you cannot possible even begin to back it up? I also see you are changing your story. In your previous post you said trillions, now you are claiming billions. So what is it?
I made the claim because I am not a fool! The totals DO reach into the billions. You write a letter to your precious pope and have them send me a copy of their financials, and I WILL quantify it exactly for you!
I swear, the Catholic Church has to be made up of lawyers! (At least the contingent of them here seem to think they are.) The fact that I have gone from saying 'trillions' to 'billions' DOES NOT take away even one iota of my argument! Not one little bit!
Yet you act as if it makes some sort of a difference... IT DOESN'T! The Pope and his cronies are very POOR stewards of the resources God has entrusted them with... There is NO WAY this can be denied! So they are very poor stewards of billions (maybe it's 'only' millions) rather than being very poor stewards of trillions... Now... where was your point going? Did you actually have one? I sure did! I made it too, I believe!
What kind of example does it set when you completely ignore the context of the statement to quibble over what is really an insignificant part of it? I'd be more concerned about that than about what you have chosen to see in my argument. Does it matter whether it is one dollar being wasted or a trillion dollars being wasted? Not in the LEAST when one finally realizes the point is not the total wasted, but the fact that there is waste...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 12:43:23 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
And the track record of the Church and of Pope John Paul II are both pretty stellar ni my mind. I am more than willing to give JP II the benefit of the doubt that this was a display of Vatican unity and friendliness.
Dear DH,
While in the thick of becoming Roman Catholic, I had a discussion with other RC regarding JPII kissing the Quran. I was astonished at those RC who supported JPII doing this. The reasons for their defense were similar to your comment above - "a display of Vatican unity and friendliness."
I could not in good conscience defend this action of kissing the Quran. Any Christian who knows what the followers of Islam believe would question such an action. Muslims do not believe that Christ died on Calvary for the sins of the world. They even make assertions that it was someone else other than our Lord Jesus who died on that cross. They reject the Trinity, they oppose the deity and divinity of Christ, and they want to rid the world of all Christians (and non-Muslims) through Jihad.
This action of kissing the Quran, along with the pope's declaration that the Muslims "adore the same God we do" was one of a number of things which convinced me I could not become a Roman Catholic. I cannot defend the pope on either of these two points. I would be ashamed to do so.
In addition, I could not defend JPII's actions and intentions concerning the ecumenical gathering at Assisi on Octobler 27, 1986. This kind of ecuminism is not the unity of which Christ spoke about in St. John 17. And it was actions like these that offended many traditional RC who saw the church's landscape being dramatically transformed. Thus it is that there are staunch Sedevacantists.
Heavendweller
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 1:13:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3825
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
Yes this did make the news but if its the event I'm thinking about the figure of a women on a cross is a depitction of a local martyr who was actually crucifide by her attackers. So does that make you feel better?
Not the event I am speaking of...
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You mean like story in the bible of people using the cloth of St Paul to get cures.
A ritualistic herb rubdown to wars off evil spirits is liken how to the above?
quote:
Now I don't know the details of this herbal story, but like your "Mary" story and your hiding priest innuendos, there is most likely more to the story and likely to contain some facts.
Otis
It's a fact that church played hide the rapist... As well they attempted to use the concept that what is said in confession is confidential.
John
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 1:18:13 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1905
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
"...her lightest touch commands obedience..." - seems to me I heard that in movie somewhere...
oh, that was nice and poetic, DH! Or "Gladiator" or "300" movie, i confuse 'em for i see no essential difference between the two . That girl that watchs over and directs a bunch of bloodthurtsty men -
sure, that is Ps103 to the T! when on theology threads.
only i hope her flock has more clothes on then gladiators used to wear for the sake of decency
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 1:20:54 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
In addition, I could not defend JPII's actions and intentions concerning the ecumenical gathering at Assisi on Octobler 27, 1986. This kind of ecuminism is not the unity of which Christ spoke about in St. John 17. And it was actions like these that offended many traditional RC who saw the church's landscape being dramatically transformed. Thus it is that there are staunch Sedevacantists.
Dear HD,
do you know by chance - i admit you are much more knowledgable in that area- what's the official C church position on Sedevacantists? Did the Pope ever addressed that issue?
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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